Castle Aching

[Compound2632]

PS: I thought that the L&B was largely Quaker financed, and had a significant number of Quakers on the Board, and that this carried through into the LNWR, although Claughton, Chairman for many years, was the son if an Anglican Bishop.

 

There was a tendency for industrial management to fall into the hands of the university-educated establishment, particularly from the Edwardian period onward - sons of the Anglican clergy abounded - and the Crewe premium apprentice scheme was central to this. I can't track down the quote but something along the lines of "if not bright enough for the Church then Crewe will have to do"!

 

Admiral Constantine Moorsom, who started his railway management career with the L&B, was key to the LNWR's dominance in the 1850s - and you didn't get to his rank without being part of the Anglican establishment.

[Edwardian]

There was a tendency for industrial management to fall into the hands of the university-educated establishment, particularly from the Edwardian period onward - sons of the Anglican clergy abounded - and the Crewe premium apprentice scheme was central to this. I can't track down the quote but something along the lines of "if not bright enough for the Church then Crewe will have to do"!

 

Admiral Constantine Moorsom, who started his railway management career with the L&B, was key to the LNWR's dominance in the 1850s - and you didn't get to his rank without being part of the Anglican establishment.

 

Also, very few pacifists became Admirals, so he can't have been a Quaker. 

 

So, Quakers were involved in railway management and, according to the GERS article, Sir William Birt was both a Mover and a Shaker.

 

Now I know about the Shakers, but what obscure Nonconformist sect were the Movers?

 

Perhaps we should have some in CA.

[Compound2632]

Also, very few pacifists became Admirals, so he can't have been a Quaker. 

 

So, Quakers were involved in railway management and, according to the GERS article, Sir William Birt was both a Mover and a Shaker.

 

Now I know about the Shakers, but what obscure Nonconformist sect were the Movers?

 

Perhaps we should have some in CA.

 

Presumably nothing to do with this Episcopalian outfit:

[sp1]

Actually, it was Pollit.

 

Which reminds me of Sir Sam Fay

 

And, was Sir Gilbert Claughton a GM of the LNWR before he bacame a director? [edit: no, he wasn't.]

 

K

 

I see that Fay has already been played; apologies.

 

PS: I thought that the L&B was largely Quaker financed, and had a significant number of Quakers on the Board, and that this carried through into the LNWR, although Claughton, Chairman for many years, was the son if an Anglican Bishop.

Claughton (sorry for being off topic) has numerous associations with where I live (Dudley) and is distantly related to me. He was, as well as being involved with the LNWR, Estate Manager for the Earl of Dudley, who was, if my memory is correct, his brother in law. One of the local schools was named after him (my mother, and one of my brothers went there) - a building with a magnificent exterior that if I was any good as a modeller I would have a go at - it still stands, but sadly no longer in use.

[phil_sutters]

£2.80, postage free.  Ordered.

 

Thanks to you both.

Very reasonable, free postage will eat into that sum considerably as it weighs 574gm - but mine was £1, as were all the hardbacks in that seller's part of the shop* - 50p for paperbacks. We intend to go back again before it shuts at the end of the month. A new more expensive lease is not viable it seems.

*Should anyone in this neck of the woods want to know - Farthings in Rottingdean High Street. I suppose, given the frequent ecclesiastical references in this thread, Rottingdean is in the right vein.

[Poggy1165]

I seem to recall that, prior to WW1, there was some sort of committee of railway managers that worked on the strategic organisation plans for the railways in the event of war. It wouldn't surprise me if service in this connection 'helped' towards knighthoods for some of these chaps.

 

Of course, as is well-known, in 1914 the railways were put under government control - but for day-to-day purposes they were run by a committee of senior professional railwaymen. Sam Fay, of course, spent much of the war at the War Office as Director of Movements. He was even given a general's commission, though he refused to wear uniform for anyone. He even wrote a book about his experiences The War Office at War.  To be frank, not the most interesting of reads, it falls into the 'How the **** did we win the war' school of literature.

 

In Europe, the military importance of railways was clearly and openly recognised even from the first. Here in Blighty, it was more played-down, but the connections are there, all the same.

[Edwardian]

I seem to recall that, prior to WW1, there was some sort of committee of railway managers that worked on the strategic organisation plans for the railways in the event of war. It wouldn't surprise me if service in this connection 'helped' towards knighthoods for some of these chaps.

 

Of course, as is well-known, in 1914 the railways were put under government control - but for day-to-day purposes they were run by a committee of senior professional railwaymen. Sam Fay, of course, spent much of the war at the War Office as Director of Movements. He was even given a general's commission, though he refused to wear uniform for anyone. He even wrote a book about his experiences The War Office at War.  To be frank, not the most interesting of reads, it falls into the 'How the **** did we win the war' school of literature.

 

In Europe, the military importance of railways was clearly and openly recognised even from the first. Here in Blighty, it was more played-down, but the connections are there, all the same.

 

Thus we circle round to entraining cavalry.

 

Eventually.

 

By way of titles for General Managers.

 

Bill King's GERS Journal article (quoted above) said that knighthoods were rare for General Managers.  Might he be understood to mean "at the time"?  William Birt was knighted in 1897. Picking up on Poggy's point, how many of the knights mentioned were knighted later, and for how many of these might war service have been a factor? 

 

By the way, Gooch, I would say, is an exceptional case.

 

Funnily enough, in the same Journal edition as the Birt article is an article on the GE's role in the mobilisation of 1914.  This has some details of the "sort of committee of railway managers that worked on the strategic organisation plans for the railways in the event of war".  And, yes, the work was voluntary, and so, may have been recognised by the honours system.

 

War planning started at an early period, and really picks up at the time we were nervous of French invasion and the Volunteer Rifle movement was in full swing.  In January 1865 the Engineers and Railway Volunteer Staff Corps (ERVS)  was formed, and, by 1866 there was a 311-page time-table for special troop trains to show for it.  By 1905, annual revisions were instituted, and in November 1912 the general managers of leading railway companies were asked to form the Railway Executive Committee under the President of the Board of Trade.  

 

As to military rank, the Territorial and Reserve Forces Act 1907 (we came across this earlier as the legislation that created the Territorial Army into which the Yeomanry and Rifle Volunteers were subsumed) provided for the ERVS to became part of the TA as the Engineer and Railway Staff Corps and, accordingly, military rank was conferred upon the senior railway staff involved (Lt. Cols and Majors).

 

The practical application takes us back to the question I raised earlier about cavalry entraining horses in cattle wagons.  The article gives many examples of GE military trains in 1914.  Numbers of horses are given, expressed to be moved by "x cattle wagons and Y brakes" (generally 2 brakes).  It is not clear from the article whether some horses were accommodated in the brakes, but it strikes me as highly unlikely that horses were put in passenger brake vans.  For one thing, I imagine that there would be plenty of kit to accommodate in the baggage compartments, such as the tack, and for another, I don't suppose the GE wanted to be left mucking out baggage compartments!.

 

On this basis, I have simply divided the horses conveyed per train by the number of cattle wagons utilised in order to determine the average number of horses per cattle wagon (given in parenthesis):

 

- 112 horses in 16 cattle wagons (7)

- 85 horses in 12 cattle wagons (7)

- 55 horses in 8 cattle wagons (6.8)

- 100 horses in 14 cattle wagons (7.14), in two trains

- 140 horses in 20 cattle wagons (7)

- 9 Officer's chargers in 3 horse boxes (3), and 84 troop horses in 12 cattle wagons (7) (cavalry)

- 6 Officer's chargers in 2 horse boxes (3), and 86 troop horses in 13 cattle wagons (6.6) (cavalry)    

- 144 horses in 21 cattle wagons (6.8) (horse artillery)

 

Now, it is possible, I suppose, that for peace-time manoeuvres the horses were not packed so tight, but these trains were planned in advance, so peace-time planners clearly had no problem with this number of beasts per vehicle.

 

So, now we know, 7 troop horses per cattle wagon.

 

If we assume a single peace-time Yeomanry Troop travelling in its own train, either because it needs to concentrate for training or because it is at CA for Royal escort duty, we can assume no more than 20 ORs (full establishment of a regular cavalry troop being 30), and, thus, 1 horse box (officer's charger) and 3 cattle wagons.  In terms of carriages, you might get away with a single composite, say 2 Third Class compartments, perhaps SNCOs & WOs in a Second Class compartment and a First Class compartment for the officer(s).

 

I would suggest a formation thus:

 

GE Locomotive (No.1 Class/T26 or Y14 (passenger braked)) / GE Brake Composite (6-wheel) or Brake Third and Composite (4-wheel) / GE Horse Box / GE Cattle Wagon / GE Cattle Wagon / GE Cattle Wagon / GE Full Brake

 

Problem solved!

Edited February 8, 2017 by Edwardian

[Nearholmer]

The calculations are very interesting (three facing each end, and one across the middle, possibly using dividers to stop the chap in the middle getting kicked?).

 

But, for your train composition to be valid, cattle trucks would need to be continuously braked. Were they?

 

My only reference is to LBSCR wagons, which shows cattle trucks to have hand brakes only, although the very few cattle boxes ( I think they were called 'prize cattle vans' elsewhere) did have continuous brakes.

 

I would read "X cattle vans + 2 brakes" to mean a goods brake van at each end of the train. Two brakes were provided for various reasons in various places: sometimes two at the back to provide brake force on very steep routes; sometimes one at each end to avoid prolonged shunting when the service had to change directions en-route; and, sometimes to provide "fine" control of the load, which I suspect in this case.

 

Horse boxes almost certainly were continuously braked.

 

I'm thinking that the horses travelled in one train, and the men in another. Where I've seen troop trains, in the 1970s/80s, they were loaded on the basis of two seats for each man, to allow one seat for his kit bag, this was done in preference to using vans for kit, because it vastly speeded-up loading and unloading.

 

The ultimately unpleasant reference for troop-train loading is the accident report about Quintinshill, which contains copious detail. In that case, I think the coaches were loaded with all seats occupied, and the kit in a string of continuously braked vans at the back.

 

What do others think?

 

Kevin

Edited February 8, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

The calculations are very interesting (three facing each end, and one across the middle, possibly using dividers to stop the chap in the middle getting kicked?).

 

But, for your train composition to be valid, cattle trucks would need to be continuously braked. Were they?

 

My only reference is to LBSCR wagons, which shows cattle trucks to have hand brakes only, although the very few cattle boxes ( I think they were called 'prize cattle vans' elsewhere) did have continuous brakes.

 

I would read "X cattle vans + 2 brakes" to mean a goods brake van at each end of the train. Two brakes were provided for various reasons in various places: sometimes two at the back to provide brake force on very steep routes; sometimes one at each end to avoid prolonged shunting when the service had to change directions en-route; and, sometimes to provide "fine" control of the load, which I suspect in this case.

 

Horse boxes almost certainly were continuously braked.

 

I'm thinking that the horses travelled in one train, and the men in another. Where I've seen troop trains, in the 1970s/80s, they were loaded on the basis of two seats for each man, to allow one seat for his kit bag, this was done in preference to using vans for kit, because it vastly speeded-up loading and unloading.

 

The ultimately unpleasant reference for troop-train loading is the accident report about Quintinshill, which contains copious detail.

 

What do others think?

 

Kevin

 

I think... the cattle wagons could be piped only, not necessarily fitted. Alternatively, I think there's evidence of passenger brakes being used at the tail of unfitted trains? After all, they're not conveying passengers. The consist would be like an express goods with a fitted head, or a 'mixed' train. I'm not sure troops were considered as passengers in the normal sense?

[Nearholmer]

The only exceptions to the "lock, block, and brake" requirements for trains with people on-board that I'm aware of relate to drovers accompanying cattle, and grooms accompanying horses, and I'm not sure that these exceptions were made overt in Board of Trade Requirements until quite late, although they'd applied in practice throughout.

 

I know of no distinction between troops and other passengers.

 

To flip this: what is there to indicate that the "brakes" on horse trains were anything other than goods brakes?

 

If there were a few grooms, I can see that passenger accommodation would be needed, though.

 

And, were GER cattle trucks piped? As I said, my only reference is LBSCR, and their's don't seem to have been.

 

Kevin

[uax6]

I've only seen the leading end of a WW1 horse train being loaded. That is a LYR train and it had a 6wheel brake carriage (not full brake from memory, so it could carry some grooms) and then a whole raft of cattle wagons with the horses in. And because they had horses loaded, each one has had extra holes drilled in the top plank, which allows the ropes for the wagon sheet to be tied over the open top part of the body...

 

The LYR could have run it in a passenger formation as they were enlightened enough to have most of their stock fitted, but I think that the GER wagons would have been handbrake only, but with screw couplings, so that they could be tightened up to make buffer head contact, which would reduce the buffing shocks.

 

I can remember what the pictures of the trains at Thetford West were made of, infact I can't recall a picture of the trains in detail, but I would guess that it would just be grooms in the horse train, the soldiers being in a separate train.

 

Andy G

[Northroader]

Presumably nothing to do with this Episcopalian outfit:

Not episcopalian at all, here's a pantechnicon of theirs before they went all modern and with it. (I'm still working on the lettering, don't worry) a Duncan Models kit, then it needs a machinery wagon, which a badly bashed second hand mineral wagon has kindly offered to act as a donor.

On the matter of troop train formations, here's a Terriers train leaving Swanage in 30s, the tail end being of interest, (the lead end two M7s and twelve bogies) but then you have a horse box, then flats with field kitchens -what about one of them in your train? which I doubt had vac brakes, so a brake van to finish off with, passenger rather than goods.

[Caley Jim]

And, were GER cattle trucks piped? As I said, my only reference is LBSCR, and their's don't seem to have been.

Caledonian ones certainly were not, though their prize cattle boxes were passenger rated.

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

Not episcopalian at all, here's a pantechnicon of theirs before they went all modern and with it. (I'm still working on the lettering, don't worry) a Duncan Models kit, then it needs a machinery wagon, which a badly bashed second hand mineral wagon has kindly offered to act as a donor.

IMG_0884.JPG

On the matter of troop train formations, here's a Terriers train leaving Swanage in 30s, the tail end being of interest, (the lead end two M7s and twelve bogies) but then you have a horse box, then flats with field kitchens -what about one of them in your train? which I doubt had vac brakes, so a brake van to finish off with, passenger rather than goods.

IMG_0885.JPG

 

In spite of my earlier 'thought', I don't think this is evidence of a BPV at the unfitted tail of a train - I suspect the two 'flats' are passenger-rated open carriage trucks.

[uax6]

That horse box is interesting, its got footboards at axlebox level...  The last open seems to have the door over the buffers in the down position.

 

I'm guessing they could all be passenger rated, and therefore at least piped, with the van at the end to stop the last vehicles being swingers...

 

Andy G

[Nearholmer]

This is going to stick in my throat.

 

A recommendation to the daily mail website! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2825709/The-real-War-Horse-Amazing-story-father-son-mare-dodged-shellfire.html

 

Picture of military horses being loaded to cattle trucks, if you scroll down a bit.

 

K

[Northroader]

It's the picture of the pyramid you really wanted us to look at.

[Edwardian]

There is sufficient photographic evidence to show that a cavalry train would marshal coaching stock at the front for the officers and men, then any baggage vehicle (NPC),then horse Box(es) for the officers' mounts, then cattle trucks for the OR's horses then a terminating brake van.

 

The only issue, I think, is whether the terminating brake is a passenger or goods brake.  In the days before fitted cattle trucks were numerous, I can see the argument for a goods brake.  Pictures seldom show the far ends of trains with any clarity. 

 

I wonder, do any of these shots (from the excellent http://www.swindonsotherrailway.co.uk/mike.html) of cavalry units arriving at Ludgershall for training in the Edwardian Era help?  Certainly one shot could show cattle wagons with a passenger brake at the end being hauled away.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Edwardian

[Donw]

This is going to stick in my throat.

 

A recommendation to the daily mail website! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2825709/The-real-War-Horse-Amazing-story-father-son-mare-dodged-shellfire.html

 

Picture of military horses being loaded to cattle trucks, if you scroll down a bit.

 

K

 

Interesting that the horses seem to be across the cattle wagon. I would have thought it less comfortable than be along the wagon. The number of horses is a balance between overcrowding and being close enough to help hold each other up. Thinking about the width of a horse 7 to a wagon would seem right.

 

I like the thinking on the train Edwardian

 

Don

[phil_sutters]

£2.80, postage free.  Ordered.

 

Thanks to you both.

Having perused the book in more detail, I think that you may find it somewhat Suffolk & Essex weighted. The artist was a Colchester man. Nevertheless it is, in my opinion, well worth the paltry sums we are parting with!

[Ian Smeeton]

Only skipped to the last page, so this may have been covered.

 

Re: No of Horses per wagon,

 

Although Continental, and therefore probably slightly larger, but weren't the Auschwitz trains (and others) formed of wagons with the legend '8 Cheveaux, 40 Hommes', so 7 in a UK cattle truck seems about right.

 

Regards

 

Ian

[Edwardian]

T26 No. 1253 conveys C Sqn, 20th Hussars, from Colchester St Botolph's to Southampton, 16 August 1914 (GERS Journal, No.163):

[TheQ]

One Minor comment, If you observe in the top left photo from the Swindon's Other  Railway site, above bridge 12, and the Tidworth road. There are a huge amounts of tents up on Windmill hill, it must have been a very big exercise that year....

[Nearholmer]

Marvellous photos, which tend to suggest that my theories are wrong, or at least to suggest that fitted, or piped, cattle wagons were more common, at an earlier date, than I thought.

 

Kevin

[Edwardian]

Marvellous photos, which tend to suggest that my theories are wrong, or at least to suggest that fitted, or piped, cattle wagons were more common, at an earlier date, than I thought.

 

Kevin

 

Well, it's a bit of a poser.

 

Among the virtues of the Ludgershall pictures is the date range, 1906-1909.

 

Now, a full squadron of cavalry marshalling on one platform and a battalion of infantry on another whilst a variety of infantry and cavalry troop trains from various companies came and went would make a wonderful 1905-1914 layout.