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18 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

In Small Talk at Wreyland, Cecil Torr recounts an incident at an hotel in Penzance. On finding the breakfast room crowded: "Waiter, can you find me a place?" "I'm sorry sir, only sole and whiting this morning."

Pollacks!

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13 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

To get back on topic (well nearly), in that case you'll need a bigger fishplate!:D

 

BTW it's haddock every time for me, though I can't see the point in mushy peas.  Oh! and if you're in that city in the East which we from the West hesitate to name, they'll ask if you want salt and sauce rather than salt and vinegar.  Funny folk in E..... Oops, nearly did it then!:scared:

 

Jim

 

My memory of Scotland (East and West) is that you can order fish or special fish. If you want chips with it then order a fish supper.

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On 12/10/2020 at 18:42, RedGemAlchemist said:

Is it cod? Because I ordered plaice. 

A clergyman of my acquaintance once ate a fish fillet of such magnificence that he pronounced it "the piece of cod that passeth all understanding".

 

I thank you.

Edited by St Enodoc
speling
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11 hours ago, brianusa said:

It is fashionable to have a group that matters these days.  I haven't yet come across one for the great ape or apeism, I defer to Mr drmditch.

       Brian.

 

Sir,

I fear that you may be succumbing to another form of '......ism' !

Caroline

('drmditch')

 

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Re: LNWR 'Queen Empress' class.

Was not one of the then Crewe apprentices, one H N Gresley, very impressed by these locomotives?

For all his foibles, Mr Webb seems to been responsible for training a number of very well thought of engineers.

 

Which one of the above class was painted ivory white?

 

Shame that never caught on.

Edited by drmditch
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1 hour ago, drmditch said:

Re: LNWR 'Queen Empress' class.

Was not one of the then Crewe apprentices, one H N Gresley, very impressed by these locomotives?

For all his foibles, Mr Webb seems to been responsible for training a number of very well thought of engineers.

 

Which one of the above class was painted ivory white?

 

Shame that never caught on.

 

It was the (real) Greater Britain 2-2-2-2s that got special livery for the Diamond Jubilee - red for 2053 Greater Britain and white for 2054 Queen Empress, blue engines being the province of the Caledonian.

 

One reason for Webb using a single leading axle was the space taken up between the frames by the enormous low pressure cylinder; when he went over to four cylinder compounding, he produced much more conventional-looking 4-4-0s; the leading radial truck with two axles being needed to support the increased weight of the cylinder block. A Teutonic 2-2-2-0 had 14 ton 10 cwt on the leading axle; this was reduced to 11 ton 17 cwt for a Greater Britain. The Jubilee 4-cylinder compound 4-4-0s, which were pretty much identical to the Teutonic except at the front end (and coupling rods), had 18 ton 18 cwt on the truck, divided between the two axles.

 

As for the Crewe Premium Apprentices and Pupils, there's Wilson Worsdell, whose elder brother T.W. Worsdell was Webb's first Works Manager; H.A. Ivatt and John Aspinall were contemporaries who both first went on to Inchicore; Hoy and Hughes, Gresley, and H.G. Ivatt. It's perhaps unsurprising that the L&Y should be an employer of Crewe-trained locomotive engineers but perhaps LNER enthusiasts need reminding how indebted to Crewe that company and its three largest constituents were. T.W. Worsdell certainly understood the benefits of building large numbers of a simple, robust, standard goods engine:

 

image.png.9df635c72076a26164ee04c55ff9b33d.png

 

[GER Society collection]

 

The Great Southern & Western saw itself as the Irish Premier Line; Inchicore the Irish Crewe. Although Alexander McDonnell was not a Crewe Pupil - he went to Trinity College Dublin - he followed Crewe practices closely and also produced a long-lived standard goods engine:

 

image.png.50475e791a83c50a393e95abf12e23c6.png

 

[Irish Railway Modeller website]

 

McDonnell provided Ivatt and Aspinall with their post-graduate training; Ivatt, as successor to McDonnell at Inchicore continued the tradition of taking pupils, including R.E.L Maunsell. 

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6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

@nick_bastable, who is the artist? The carriage door has a semi-circular top, which suggests the Met or perhaps GWR metropolitan stock out to grass.

no idea image is from 

https://www.hastingspierarchive.org.uk/content/catalogue_item/edwardian-illustration-seaside-train   

I suspect a flight of fancy from a postcard illustrator

 

Nick B

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2 hours ago, drmditch said:

Re: LNWR 'Queen Empress' class.

Was not one of the then Crewe apprentices, one H N Gresley, very impressed by these locomotives?

For all his foibles, Mr Webb seems to been responsible for training a number of very well thought of engineers.

 

Which one of the above class was painted ivory white?

 

Shame that never caught on.

As already stated it was Queen Empress that was painted white, she that went to Chicago. The idea was that three engines would be painted in the colours of the Union Flag. Greater Britain was painted scarlet. Empress of India was the blue engine of course but she was of course lost in the Atlantic so no engine with this livery ever ran on the LNWR..

 

Edited by webbcompound
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2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

It was the (real) Greater Britain 2-2-2-2s that got special livery for the Diamond Jubilee - red for 2053 Greater Britain and white for 2054 Queen Empress, blue engines being the province of the Caledonian.

 

One reason for Webb using a single leading axle was the space taken up between the frames by the enormous low pressure cylinder; when he went over to four cylinder compounding, he produced much more conventional-looking 4-4-0s; the leading radial truck with two axles being needed to support the increased weight of the cylinder block. A Teutonic 2-2-2-0 had 14 ton 10 cwt on the leading axle; this was reduced to 11 ton 17 cwt for a Greater Britain. The Jubilee 4-cylinder compound 4-4-0s, which were pretty much identical to the Teutonic except at the front end (and coupling rods), had 18 ton 18 cwt on the truck, divided between the two axles.

 

As for the Crewe Premium Apprentices and Pupils, there's Wilson Worsdell, whose elder brother T.W. Worsdell was Webb's first Works Manager; H.A. Ivatt and John Aspinall were contemporaries who both first went on to Inchicore; Hoy and Hughes, Gresley, and H.G. Ivatt. It's perhaps unsurprising that the L&Y should be an employer of Crewe-trained locomotive engineers but perhaps LNER enthusiasts need reminding how indebted to Crewe that company and its three largest constituents were. T.W. Worsdell certainly understood the benefits of building large numbers of a simple, robust, standard goods engine:

 

image.png.9df635c72076a26164ee04c55ff9b33d.png

 

[GER Society collection]

 

The Great Southern & Western saw itself as the Irish Premier Line; Inchicore the Irish Crewe. Although Alexander McDonnell was not a Crewe Pupil - he went to Trinity College Dublin - he followed Crewe practices closely and also produced a long-lived standard goods engine:

 

image.png.50475e791a83c50a393e95abf12e23c6.png

 

[Irish Railway Modeller website]

 

McDonnell provided Ivatt and Aspinall with their post-graduate training; Ivatt, as successor to McDonnell at Inchicore continued the tradition of taking pupils, including R.E.L Maunsell. 

 

McDonnell was not popular or rated a success on the NER. The men did not like bogies or his engines. For context, his successful Class 101/J15 Irish 0-6-0 seems to have been largely a standard Beyer design.  However, I suspect he was more sinned against than sinning on the NER.  He was primarily an organiser, which was what the NER probably needed at that point, and he probably at least represented a vital break from Fletcher practice and therefore broke the ground for TW, who, of course, managed to introduce bogie designs with no apparent opposition and some strikingly modern standard designs. 

 

Not that I am critical of Fletcher, who produced some great designs, but he was the locomotive superintendent of the NER before it completed its various amalgamations, and even after that, independent strands of locomotive and rolling stock development persisted within the NER with the Darlington Committee doing its own thing until 1875 and Gateshead, York etc all having their own ideas about how to do things.  The lack of standardisation - numerous classes modified in differing ways - was summed up by Ahrons as resulting in no two NER locos looking the same.    

 

This was the accident of the line's history, much as the Great Western remained in many ways two different railways (Northern Division - Armstrong - Wolverhampton - traditionally standard gauge and Southern Division - Dean - Swindon - broad/ex-broad gauge) until Churchward's days.

 

In other words, I suspect that the failure to standardise earlier was often the result of various factors that worked against that as a practical reality, rather than a failure to appreciate the benefits of such an approach.

 

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2 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

McDonnell was not popular or rated a success on the NER. The men did not like bogies or his engines. For context, his successful Class 101/J15 Irish 0-6-0 seems to have been largely a standard Beyer design.  However, I suspect he was more sinned against than sinning on the NER.  He was primarily an organiser, which was what the NER probably needed at that point, and he probably at least represented a vital break from Fletcher practice and therefore broke the ground for TW, who, of course, managed to introduce bogie designs with no apparent opposition and some strikingly modern standard designs. 

 

 

I think that's right - McDonnell was the wrong man trying to do the right thing. Wilson Worsdell went to Gateshead as McDonnell's Chief Draughtsman; I've seen some strong hints that the Tennant 2-4-0s were essentially his design, meeting the Locomotive Committee's specification. Another influence on the Worsdells was of course the time they spent at Altoona, the North American Crewe.

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Good design - lots of room for a nice big spring. In fact, it’s so suitable that I’m surprised it wasn’t chosen to become one of the classic pre-WW1 models. The only GER one I’m aware of is Decapod, made as something like an Atlantic with all the wheels the same size IIRC (o might have posted a photo before).

 

BTW, do you folks know exactly how loud nine-year old girls can be? Our youngest brought two classmates home with her to “do crafts” on the kitchen table while I was making a shepherd’s pie. I no longer have any ear drums!

 

 

Edited by Nearholmer
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1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

BTW, do you folks know exactly how loud nine-year old girls can be? Our youngest brought two classmates home with her to “do crafts” on the kitchen table while I was making a shepherd’s pie. I no longer have any ear drums!

 

 

Having met Mrs CKPR-to-be when her children were already teenagers, I am still amazed at the bloodcurdling sonic capabilities of a 17 year old wrestling with a stuck drawer in her bedroom...definitely a case of heard but not seen.

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