Castle Aching

[petethemole]

The boiler is a structural element in most British style engines.  Some US and Canadian makes had frames.

[Compound2632]

In other words, they're much the same as railway locomotives. Built in 18xx, but new boiler, frames, cylinders... at various times. Often the motion is the surviving part from the original build. But it's still the same engine.

[Compound2632]

This might be of some interest:

 

[CF MRC]

3 hours ago, petethemole said:

Some 1870s Fowler ploughing engines at the Great Dorset Steam Fair.  Note the smokebox doors on the pair.  I wonder if the engines of that vintage that have more conventional doors have had them refitted at some stage in their working lives?

The top engine had been rebuilt later in life by John Allen & Co, Oxford; hence the more modern smokebox. It also has tank steering: vertical steering wheel on the tank at the back.  
 

Tim

[Edwardian]

10 hours ago, petethemole said:

Some 1870s Fowler ploughing engines at the Great Dorset Steam Fair.  Note the smokebox doors on the pair.  I wonder if the engines of that vintage that have more conventional doors have had them refitted at some stage in their working lives?

 

 

Those are things of beauty.

 

The bottom pair would clearly be the ones to go for.

 

CA will not be set in the season of either ploughing or threshing/thrashing, but an agricultural engineer's/contractor's yard gives me the excuse to have ploughing and threshing sets stashed around the place. 

 

These would make superb models.  I suspect they will be noticeably smaller than the post-Great War Oxford Diecast/Kiel Kraft models we're used to.  That and , and the distinctive smokebox doors and domes would really give a sense of period. 

 

Thank you for these.

 

Dimensions, I must have some dimensions!

 

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

This might be of some interest:

 

 

Investigating with interest!

[Edwardian]

17 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

There are a couple of buildings in/around Babingley that might make good inspiration for a waiting room: a community/club hall on the main road at what used to be called Cat’s Bottom (I wonder why they quietly dropped than name?) which IIRC is one of those strange huts that is covered in tree-branches sawn in half lengthways, as used for some stations by the Manx Electric Railway, Derby Castle for instance, and the ‘modern’ church, which is corrugated iron with a thatched roof. Both the right period for the early days of the Sandringham Estate, which I guess is how they originated.

 

 

 

I don't know much about Sandringham save that I think the Prince of Wales acquired it in the 1860s, but major remodelling did not take place until around 1870 with a ballroom added in the 1880s.  There is certainly a distinct Sandringham Estate style that you notice if you travel in the area.  It tends to involve lots of gables and dormers. Like a lot of other local Victorian buildings, use is made of carstone rag infill. 

 

For the private waiting room I'm tending to the idea of something rather ornamental - absurdly over-ornamental for its diminutive size - in stone block and carstone rag. 

 

I tend to think of the Ducal waiting room at Redmile, complete with porte cochère, as a starting point.  Indeed, there's a porte cochère on the Sandrihgham House frontage one could ape. 

 

I grew up in Leicestershire, and, along with the 1840s Midland and 1899 Great Central London Extension mainlines, which came almost within touching distance in the district, there was the sadly overlooked LNW-GN Joint line, which had very attractive canopied redbrick stations and ran through beautiful country.  I once had a house that overlooked the line near Brooksby; no private waiting room, but an aristocratic request stop for the Hall. But I don't need another rabbit hole now ...

 

EDIT: The Sandringham porte cochère

 

 

Back to barracks .....

 

OK, so you all know  I have a bit of a 'thing' about Victorian drill halls and the volunteer movement that spawned them (I was once commissioned in the Yeomanry, a separate and older tradition, but, unlike the Militia, a volunteer force in common with the later Volunteer Rifle movement).

 

What connects Sandringham House with this movement, and, indeed, with our earlier excursion to Gin Palaces (or rather one of their architectural styles)?

 

Answer: Colonel Robert William Edis. An architect and a keen volunteer and CO of the Artists Rifles in 1883, at which time he was re-modelling Sandringham House.

 

  

 

An exponent of the 'Queen Anne' Revival style, in 1888, he got to design his own drill hall, Duke's Road, Camden, for the 20th Middlesex (Artist's) Rifle Volunteer Corps.  

 

 

Only connect ....

 

(I feel a bit like James Burke after that!)

 

EDIT:  This range, I suspect, is part of Edis's contribution:

 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2020 by Edwardian

[CF MRC]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

 

Those are things of beauty.

 

The bottom pair would clearly be the ones to go for.

 

CA will not be set in the season of either ploughing or threshing/thrashing, but an agricultural engineer's/contractor's yard gives me the excuse to have ploughing and threshing sets stashed around the place. 

 

These would make superb models.  I suspect they will be noticeably smaller than the post-Great War Oxford Diecast/Kiel Kraft models we're used to.  That and , and the distinctive smokebox doors and domes would really give a sense of period. 

 

Thank you for these.

 

Dimensions, I must have some dimensions!

 

 

Investigating with interest!

They would be virtually the same overall size as later sets, but with a simpler engine being single cylinder.  The front wheels were also much further forward. There are, of course, hundreds of books on traction engines. 
 

The ‘get out of gaol’ card would be to have them under a tarpaulin. 
 

Tim

Edited December 5, 2020 by CF MRC

[Edwardian]

3 minutes ago, CF MRC said:

 

The ‘get out of gaol’ card would be to have them under a tarpaulin. 
 

 

 

Yes, I had reflected that they probably would be, out of season.  I have a number of the Keil Kraft engines, and the though had occurred!  

 

 

[jcredfer]

Perhaps I may be permitted a brief question, as an aside.  I have often wondered where the name (Artists) came from.  A couple of ideas come to mind, but I have never been able to confirm which, if any, might be correct.  It has been a matter of idle curiosity for many years.  I suspect you may know the correct origin, having been a Commissioned Artist and might be good enough to reveal it to we lesser mortals.

 

Julian

 

[Edwardian]

25 minutes ago, jcredfer said:

Perhaps I may be permitted a brief question, as an aside.  I have often wondered where the name (Artists) came from.  A couple of ideas come to mind, but I have never been able to confirm which, if any, might be correct.  It has been a matter of idle curiosity for many years.  I suspect you may know the correct origin, having been a Commissioned Artist and might be good enough to reveal it to we lesser mortals.

 

Julian

 

 

Commissioned Officer, P1ss Artist; two entirely different, yet by no means mutually exclusive, things.

 

The answer is simple, they were artists.

 

This happened a lot in the volunteer movements.  Informally units might be, for instance, associated with a particular factory.  One unit was officered and manned as a military parallel of the GE/Stratford Works hierarchy.

 

Others were named for their constituents.  There was a Post Office Rifles as well, IIRC, and my first Territorial unit was the Inns of Court, which had traditionally recruited from barristers and their clerks.

 

EDIT: Some pictures (there is no such thing as a brief aside in CA):

 

Artists Rifles (20th Middlesex (Artists') Rifle Volunteer Corps) (now TA SAS of all things):

 

 

Post Office Rifles (49th Middlesex Rifle Volunteers Corps) (first to volunteer for overseas service):

 

 

Inns of Court (14th Middlesex (Inns of Court) Rifle Volunteer Corps) 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2020 by Edwardian

[Compound2632]

They do seem to have been mostly rifle units. It would have been more fittingly poetic* if their weapon had reflected their profession, along the lines of the pen being mightier than the sword.

 

*and probably no more ineffective when going over the top.

[Caley Jim]

I will resist the strong temptation to ask if that is your good self standing guard at 'The Big Front Door'. (can't see the polished brass handle though) 

 

Jim

[jcredfer]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

 

Commissioned Officer, P1ss Artist; two entirely different, yet by no means mutually exclusive, things.

 

The answer is simple, they were artists.

 

This happened a lot in the volunteer movements.  Informally units might be, for instance, associated with a particular factory.  One unit was officered and manned as a military parallel of the GE/Stratford Works hierarchy.

 

Others were named for their constituents.  There was a Post Office Rifles as well, IIRC, and my first Territorial unit was the Inns of Court, which had traditionally recruited from barristers and their clerks.

 

EDIT: Some pictures (there is no such thing as a brief aside in CA):

 

Artists Rifles (20th Middlesex (Artists') Rifle Volunteer Corps) (now TA SAS of all things):

 

 

Post Office Rifles (49th Middlesex Rifle Volunteers Corps) (first to volunteer for overseas service):

 

 

Inns of Court (14th Middlesex (Inns of Court) Rifle Volunteer Corps) 

 

 

 

Thank you kind Sir, why is it that the obvious can be so B...  difficult to, simply, accept - until someone just says, "Well, yes that's it."

 

Those are splendid pictures, thank you for posting them and what a medley of uniforms in the (14th Middlesex (Inns of Court).  A strong contrast to when I joined the RAF.  One of the first tasks was to update the Air Publications, which included a number of Ammendments for the Manual of Air Force Law.  {now there's a volume which has great potential for laying on track, whilst the glue dries!}  One of these directed the Para. "Officers shall be Commissioned as Officers and Gentlemen / Ladies." to be ammended to "Officers shall be commissioned as Officers and Gentlenen / Ladies."   Perhaps an indication of recruitment levels at the time.  They later replaced serge jackets with "Wooley Pullys".  The blue and gold braid Dress Belts had also, just gone, unless wearing a sword, on parade.  Brylcream was long since gone, too. 

 

Julian

 

[Edwardian]

After 3 weeks of de-cluttering (not that anywhere looks de-cluttered) I have finally uncovered two important things that had for some time been buried ....

 

First, the test track baseboards, now once again accessible for work upon them 

 

 

Second ....

 

 

[St Enodoc]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

They do seem to have been mostly rifle units. It would have been more fittingly poetic* if their weapon had reflected their profession, along the lines of the pen being mightier than the sword.

 

*and probably no more ineffective when going over the top.

"Halt or I'll paint your portrait!"

Edited December 5, 2020 by St Enodoc

[nick_bastable]

7 hours ago, Edwardian said:

After 3 weeks of de-cluttering (not that anywhere looks de-cluttered) I have finally uncovered two important things that had for some time been buried ....

 

First, the test track baseboards, now once again accessible for work upon them 

 

 

Second ....

 

 

well paint me orange  purple and lick me like a lolly  ( in my finest George from Blackadder mode )

 

at last potential progress

 

Nick B

Edited December 6, 2020 by nick_bastable

[wagonman]

On 05/12/2020 at 14:08, jcredfer said:

 

One of these directed the Para. "Officers shall be Commissioned as Officers and Gentlemen / Ladies." to be ammended to "Officers shall be commissioned as Officers and Gentlenen / Ladies."   Perhaps an indication of recruitment levels at the time.  They later replaced serge jackets with "Wooley Pullys".  The blue and gold braid Dress Belts had also, just gone, unless wearing a sword, on parade.  Brylcream was long since gone, too. 

 

Julian

 

 

I always associated the idea of "temporary gentleman" with WW1 infantry – they had by that stage more or less run out of the "real" thing.

 

(my grandfather was one, receiving a field commission in 1917)

 

 

[Tom Burnham]

2 hours ago, wagonman said:

 

I always associated the idea of "temporary gentleman" with WW1 infantry – they had by that stage more or less run out of the "real" thing.

 

(my grandfather was one, receiving a field commission in 1917)

 

 

I've recently realised, several decades after first encountering the character, that Captain Higgins in Toytown ( S G Hulme Beaman - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toytown) would have been instantly recognised as a "temporary gent" when the stories were first broadcast.

[jcredfer]

5 hours ago, wagonman said:

 

I always associated the idea of "temporary gentleman" with WW1 infantry – they had by that stage more or less run out of the "real" thing.

 

(my grandfather was one, receiving a field commission in 1917)

 

 

 

The beginnings of a massive and wonderful culture change for our country {still to go full course} but getting there.  The realisation that a wide variety of talents were not just the sole preserve of the rich, was a game changer for the whole country.  It's not the place to dive into the rest of the similar revelations, but the progress to a more civilised country had been kicked off by your grandfather and many others of their ilk.  Respect.

 

Julian

 

[Edwardian]

9 hours ago, jcredfer said:

 

The beginnings of a massive and wonderful culture change for our country {still to go full course} but getting there.  The realisation that a wide variety of talents were not just the sole preserve of the rich, was a game changer for the whole country.  It's not the place to dive into the rest of the similar revelations, but the progress to a more civilised country had been kicked off by your grandfather and many others of their ilk.  Respect.

 

Julian

 

 

Sadly, snobbery is quick to re-assert itself in the peacetime military.  I remember the CO of a Yeomanry regiment in the '90s complaining to me that a (university graduate) with an accent (Welsh) had had the temerity to approach him for a commission in his regiment.  The CO's whole attitude was that it was the aspirant who was blameworthy in this situation, for not understanding how inappropriate it was.  The CO felt he would be more 'at home' in one of the corps. engineers, perhaps.  

 

It was a moment that caused me to question what the Hell I was doing there.  As you see, it was a moment that has stuck with me, as things that cause a bad taste in the mouth tend to linger.

[Nearholmer]

It’s all very strange stuff: where I worked, we had a fair sprinkling of ex-military engineering staff, from technicians to senior managers, and nearly all had made the transfer to civilian life, and the meritocratic and faintly bolshy world of railways, very happily, in many cases brilliantly, but two I can think of really struggled with the fact that they were no longer wearing a uniform that got them saluted and obeyed even when they were giving orders that everyone could ‘see straight through’. One was very senior, and left fairly quickly because he couldn’t hack the culture - his style was utterly divisive. The other was part of the organisation for c20 years, but one day blew a bit of a fuse and admitted to me that what he was struggling with, even after all that time, was the lack of an ‘officers and men’ culture - he really hated the idea that ‘all ranks’ were free to express their opinion, and that ‘you can’t get away from them, even in the mess room or the gents’. TBH, he was having a bad day, but it did highlight how having been an officer cadet from 16yo had shaped his outlook on life.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Nearholmer

[St Enodoc]

39 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

It’s all very strange stuff: where I worked, we had a fair sprinkling of ex-military engineering staff, from technicians to senior managers, and nearly all had made the transfer to civilian life, and the meritocratic and faintly bolshy world of railways, very happily, in many cases brilliantly, but two I can think of really struggled with the fact that they were no longer wearing a uniform that got them saluted and obeyed even when they were giving orders that everyone could ‘see straight through’. One was very senior, and left fairly quickly because he couldn’t hack the culture - his style was utterly divisive. The other was part of the organisation for c20 years, but one day blew a bit of a fuse and admitted to me that what he was struggling with, even after all that time, was the lack of an ‘officers and men’ culture - he really hated the idea that ‘all ranks’ were free to express their opinion, and that ‘you can’t get away from them, even in the mess room or the gents’. TBH, he was having a bad day, but it did highlight how having been an officer cadet from 16yo had shaped his outlook on life.

 

 

Interesting, Kevin. When I started (mid-70s) there was a definite hierarchical structure in BR, from the Officers' Messes in the various HQs down to job titles (Chief This-that-and-the-other) and the grading structure for Senior Officers, even though there I didn't really notice a militaristic feel to it. There was also, as you will recall, the British Transport Officers' Guild, a trade union for Management Staff grades and above. I suspect that other "service" industries (in the broadest sense of the word) operated on similar lines.

 

By the way, in the case of your colleague perhaps his outlook on life had led him to become an officer cadet...

[Welchester]

15 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Interesting, Kevin. When I started (mid-70s) there was a definite hierarchical structure in BR, from the Officers' Messes in the various HQs down to job titles (Chief This-that-and-the-other) and the grading structure for Senior Officers, even though there I didn't really notice a militaristic feel to it. There was also, as you will recall, the British Transport Officers' Guild, a trade union for Management Staff grades and above. I suspect that other "service" industries (in the broadest sense of the word) operated on similar lines.

 

By the way, in the case of your colleague perhaps his outlook on life had led him to become an officer cadet...

 

That would have been about the time my father was winding up his railway career. One of the divisive factors, of course, was that at management level you and your family had first class privilege travel (a generous provision - I had a priv card until I was 25 and never worked on the railway).

 

On the subject of unusual units in the British army, a friend's father served in the Great War in a crazy outfit called the Public School Rifles. Later he was a scab in the General Strike.

[Edwardian]

War is a great leveller, but peace is a great stratifier.

 

Two other examples that come to mind are:

 

(a) Prussia and the War of Liberation against Napoleon, which saw the Middle Classes, hitherto excluded from the Military Caste, become officers in the Landwehr and Freikorps only to face a re-assertion of privilege post-Congress.; and,

 

(b) British India in the Nineteenth Century where Anglo-Indians (mixed race) were excluded from the military hierarchy, but whose assistance in raising and serving in irregular corps was gratefully received at times of crisis, such as the Mutiny, and along the troubled North West Frontier.  In European terms, Company, then Indian Army, officers tended to be less socially distinguished than British Army officers.

 

None of this sacrifice translated to greater social acceptance than was otherwise accorded to those concerned.    

 

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Edwardian
spelling!

[drmditch]

Perhaps, in the early years of railway development, the only exemplars for a disciplined service were the Army and Navy. Drivers had to realise that they couldn't just stop near a pub when it was convenient to them. Even back then there had to be regulations, and 'policemen' to administer them. Interesting though that some railway officers clung to a military title, such as Captains Huish and O'Brien. Army titles presumably, since in the first half of the 19th century Captains RN, even when retired, would have been too senior and probably too old to start building a second career. Although some RN officers, such as Admiral Elliot of the SDLUR, did serve on committees and boards.

 

Should not the WNR have an Admiral or two, of any rank, on it's board?

One would hope though that they would support the proper side in the Fisher/Beresford controversy.

 

As regards social order and conventions, there is a reference (sorry, too lazy to check this morning) of a young man being advised to join the LNER, 'since it was run by gentlemen'.