Castle Aching

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

 

My dictatorial moment was by way of joshing with Stephen, who was insisting (both here and on the Colman's thread, that I could only run seed traffic in sheeted cattle wagons.  Which is correct, for the real world. 

 

I'll put the curtain back. 

 

 

 

 

All cheap and nasty fudge tends to be more like toffee.... 

 

Anyhow, its almost time for my eye test, too late to get to Barnards Castle, I'll have to stay local.

 

 

[Edwardian]

I'd like to dedicate this next song to Don in Minehead

 

 

[St Enodoc]

10 hours ago, drmditch said:

Also please ensure correct use of articles. Some modern practice I can ignore, but 'the HMS Victory' makes me scream and shout.

 

As does "the MCC".

[Edwardian]

Was ist das bitte?

 

[St Enodoc]

9 hours ago, Edwardian said:

The famous recusant artisan-made-good is, of course, Gillow, the furniture maker.

He certainly made some good stuff, particularly after he teamed up with Eddie Waring.

[jcredfer]

On 24/03/2021 at 11:30, Regularity said:

An imitation of the original thing...

 

It may well have been an Anchovy sauce, but the lack of it's availability over the years since then, might indicate that Lee + Perrins might have come up with a new and original recipe , which was more appealing to human taste.

 

 

[Compound2632]

49 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Was ist das bitte?

 

 

Du glücklicher Junge! Its a D307 Stores Sleeper wagon, probably from the ancient Colin Ashby kit. I believe the kit used the Slater's cattle wagon underframe - certainly looks like it. As a Midland departmental wagon, I can't see that there's much chance of one turning up either in West Norfolk or North Devon. What do you want for it?

[Edwardian]

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Du glücklicher Junge! Its a D307 Stores Sleeper wagon, probably from the ancient Colin Ashby kit. I believe the kit used the Slater's cattle wagon underframe - certainly looks like it. As a Midland departmental wagon, I can't see that there's much chance of one turning up either in West Norfolk or North Devon. What do you want for it?

 

I don't. 'Twas merely curious.  Thank you.

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

I don't. 'Twas merely curious.  Thank you.

 

Ah. OK. Found it on Ebay. There's one of the fixed-side D306 variety too. I'm watching but no doubt they'll go for silly prices well beyond what I would consider their intrinsic worth (which I would put at round about the starting price of £15.99). I might get round to scratch-building one or two.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

31 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Ah. OK. Found it on Ebay. There's one of the fixed-side D306 variety too. I'm watching but no doubt they'll go for silly prices well beyond what I would consider their intrinsic worth (which I would put at round about the starting price of £15.99). I might get round to scratch-building one or two.

 

What I would like for CA is a couple of those GN o/s frame covered wagons.  

[Nearholmer]

How is that sleeper wagon supposed to work? I've never seen a wagon with the top, but not the bottom, hinged, and I'm imagining lots of swearing as the store-men tried to get the bottom half of the cargo out, the task made even harder by the fact that they'd trapped their fingers under the top half while attempting to lower it reasonably gently, and bashed their knees on the side of it while dealing with the upper part of the load.

 

 

Edited March 25, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

How is that sleeper wagon supposed to work? I've never seen a wagon with the top, but not the bottom, hinged, and I'm imagining lots of swearing as the store-men tried to get the bottom half of the cargo out, the task made even harder by the fact that they'd trapped their fingers under the top half while attempting to lower it reasonably gently, and bashed their knees on the side of it while dealing with the upper part of the load.

 

It was probably easier than the earlier fixed-side version! A full-height drop-side would be unmanageable. The Engineer's Department had a number of natty little 5 ton hand cranes that came sandwiched between a pair of match wagons that are also just begging to be modelled. Like this:

 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Notable that the GWR sleeper wagons got over the problem by having no sides at all, simply a few stanchions (removable I think), and they had a dropped centre, either to keep the CoG down or to facilitate unloading. Even using a crane, having the load "boxed in" must have made unloading more difficult.

[Edwardian]

40 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

How is that sleeper wagon supposed to work? I've never seen a wagon with the top, but not the bottom, hinged, and I'm imagining lots of swearing as the store-men tried to get the bottom half of the cargo out, the task made even harder by the fact that they'd trapped their fingers under the top half while attempting to lower it reasonably gently, and bashed their knees on the side of it while dealing with the upper part of the load.

 

 

 

You can see how it got me curious!

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Notable that the GWR sleeper wagons got over the problem by having no sides at all, simply a few stanchions (removable I think), and they had a dropped centre, either to keep the CoG down or to facilitate unloading. Even using a crane, having the load "boxed in" must have made unloading more difficult.

 

What date are the Great Western trollies of which you speak? The Midland's fixed sided sleeper wagon dates from 1881 and the dropside version from ten years later, with a second and final batch in 1900. The inside dimensions of 18'7¼" by 7'2¼" by 3'4⅞" deep imply a loading of one gross of standard 9' x 9" x 5" sleepers, unchaired, with 5" waggle room widthways - enough to have a rope run round and under. The 8 ton carrying capacity corresponds to a maximum density of 39.6 lb/cu ft or 638 kg/m³ which is towards the top end of the rather broad density range for pine. So I envisage half-gross stacks of timber roped for lifting, and within the capacity of one of those 5 ton cranes. The dropside version reduced the height of crane lift needed. No doubt there were occasions when the best laid plans came unstuck and individual sleepers had to be manhandled in and out. I hope leather gloves were provided.

 

Thank you for asking the question. I now know how to model a loaded wagon - at least by deduction from first principles. In principle I also now know how many rail wagons I need per sleeper wagon, though I've not done the calculation!

Edited March 26, 2021 by Compound2632

[Nearholmer]

As a non-expert on GWR wagons (indeed a non-expert on wagons in general), from what I can find out the GWR ones were first built in the 1890s, had a capacity of 18 tons, and were specifically intended to carry chaired sleepers.

 

The bit that I think would be a PITB with "yours", would be getting slings in and under sleepers in the lower part of the wagon, but they might have used timber tongs .......... pointless pursuit, but I wonder whether there are photos of the process.

[Compound2632]

24 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

The bit that I think would be a PITB with "yours", would be getting slings in and under sleepers in the lower part of the wagon, but they might have used timber tongs .......... pointless pursuit, but I wonder whether there are photos of the process.

 

Yes; I'm imagining pre-roped loads, with crane used both for loading and unloading. 

 

I haven't found any photo or record of a photo that might show a wagon in use.

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

What date are the Great Western trollies of which you speak?

 

43 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

As a non-expert on GWR wagons (indeed a non-expert on wagons in general), from what I can find out the GWR ones were first built in the 1890s, had a capacity of 18 tons, and were specifically intended to carry chaired sleepers.

 

 

 

The GW diagrams T1-3 were 18-ton well-wagons built from 1894 to carry chaired sleepers.

 

 

 

[Regularity]

12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

It was probably easier than the earlier fixed-side version! A full-height drop-side would be unmanageable. The Engineer's Department had a number of natty little 5 ton hand cranes that came sandwiched between a pair of match wagons that are also just begging to be modelled. Like this:

 

 

 

Towards the end, he lowers the jib by releasing a couple of catches. I can see how they would hold the jib at a steeper angle (for lifting a bigger load) but how, on the prototype, was the jib raised and lowered between these two positions?

[Compound2632]

28 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Towards the end, he lowers the jib by releasing a couple of catches. I can see how they would hold the jib at a steeper angle (for lifting a bigger load) but how, on the prototype, was the jib raised and lowered between these two positions?

 

Not sure this answers the question but here are the instructions, cast in iron and bolted to the weight box, I think: MRSC Item 12732.

 

Also, a modellers' drawing: MRSC Item 01102; based, I think, on a set of drawings that are now in the MRSC collection, Items 88-D0342-4, Drgs. 827 "Crane Truck for 5 Ton Goods Crane", 826A "Crane Match Wagon without Jib Rest", and 826 "Crane Match Wagon with Jib Rest" respectively, drawn in July 1890.

[Regularity]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Not sure this answers the question but here are the instructions, cast in iron and bolted to the weight box, I think: MRSC Item 12732.

 

Also, a modellers' drawing: MRSC Item 01102; based, I think, on a set of drawings that are now in the MRSC collection, Items 88-D0342-4, Drgs. 827 "Crane Truck for 5 Ton Goods Crane", 826A "Crane Match Wagon without Jib Rest", and 826 "Crane Match Wagon with Jib Rest" respectively, drawn in July 1890.

Thanks for that: still hasn't helped, but very interesting nonetheless!

[Nearholmer]

I used to work with a gang of guys who, before they were re-trained to work with diesel cranes, had staffed a hand-crane of the same general kind such as that, which was still in use into the early 1970s. They always referred to their old crane by a very lewd nickname derived from the wrist-ache-inducing repetitive action of operating it.

[Nick Holliday]

I cannot say for sure, as there don't seem to be many photos of cranes being adjusted in operation, but on those that didn't have derricking cables, which made things easier, there was usually some form of adjustable mechanism, such as the Meccano version, or a sliding type as on adjustable trestles, with pins to secure the shaft in position.  I think that the change would be made by taking the lifting hook up to the pulley, or attaching it to a hook lower down the jib, and then using the lifting chains to lift the jib a touch to release any catches, then raising or lowering the jib as necessary, and then replacing the catches when at the required height. All of this would be done without any load, and when rotated to miss any intervening objects.

 

Courtesy of warwickshire railways

[Edwardian]

Meanwhile, back at the Metropolitan Carriage & Wagon Works, further progress is made on the WNR's 1870s 'New Stock' ......

 

 

 

 

 

Obviously there is a lot of detail left to add, and little so far under the solebar, but it's coming on.  The upper foot boards will be continuous (the LSWR ones were by the 1880s).  The lower foot boards will have a proper cut-out in due course, but this is no a problem at the moment, as there aren't any axleboxes yet. 

 

I haven't discussed livery with the designer, and I notice he's rendered it in LNER livery!  I'm gratified at the thought that any of these WNR New Stock coaches made it to Grouping. 

 

Damn sight better generic coach than Hornby's!

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Nick Holliday said:

I cannot say for sure, as there don't seem to be many photos of cranes being adjusted in operation, but on those that didn't have derricking cables, which made things easier, there was usually some form of adjustable mechanism, such as the Meccano version, or a sliding type as on adjustable trestles, with pins to secure the shaft in position.  I think that the change would be made by taking the lifting hook up to the pulley, or attaching it to a hook lower down the jib, and then using the lifting chains to lift the jib a touch to release any catches, then raising or lowering the jib as necessary, and then replacing the catches when at the required height. All of this would be done without any load, and when rotated to miss any intervening objects.

 

Given the location, I think that crane is of LNWR origin - the Midland ones had a brake! The wagon itself was railway-built but I think the cranes were bought in; certainly that's very similar to ones seen in some Midland photos. The wagon part incorporates a substantial cast iron cross-shaped bed, extending to the solebars and the headstocks.