Castle Aching

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Northroader's example

 

You do realise that's a London & North Western cattle wagon? Are you sure that's the way you want to go?

[Edwardian]

9 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

You do realise that's a London & North Western cattle wagon? Are you sure that's the way you want to go?

 

Well, the Norfolk Minerals Railway runs a LNWR brake van, so ..... 

[burgundy]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Cattle wagons will be a challenge. There are not many plastic kits about: off-hand the only ones I can think of that don't look far too modern are the Slaters Midland wagon and the Parkside LMS wagon, both of which are pretty distinctive designs. Another candidate for a bespoke 3D print?

5 and 9 models do a couple of cattle vans - a nice Brighton one of 1851 and an alfresco South Eastern one. 

Best wishes 

Eric  

[CKPR]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

the Slaters Midland wagon

This can be quite easily chopped up to produce smaller MR cattle wagons that might be suitable for the WNR (IRRC there was an article in Model Railways in 1976-77 on producing a variety of older and smaller MR cattle vans from the Slaters kit). Obviously, what you really need are some of the Furness open top cattle wagons of which for obvious reasons, I've made but one and one only in 4mm scale.

 

Knowing of your not unreasonable reservations about white-metal kits, there have been quite few pre-group cattle wagons available in 'margarine metal'  - the D&S ones are excellent, but you might want to give the old Model Wagon Co. / Kingdom Kits a wide berth even though the range included outside-framed cattle vans from the Caley, G&SWR, NBR and the Cambrian.

Edited August 2, 2021 by CKPR

[Northroader]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

You do realise that's a London & North Western cattle wagon? Are you sure that's the way you want to go?

 

Tee hee....

 

edit: how about this, then?

Edited August 2, 2021 by Northroader

[wagonman]

I'm wondering for what traffic the 7-plank wagons would be intended, bearing in mind these are presumably merchandise wagons.

 

The MSWJR works at Cirencester rebuilt a lot of wagons – and may even have built a few latterly – but most of their stock came from outside builders. 

[Caley Jim]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Andy G has kindly made some Scottish cattle wagons available, though Northroader's example may be a good fit with the o/s frame covered wagons I'm on with. 

I could offer you an etched kit for an early (1870) CR cattle wagon, but it's the wrong scale (or should I say the WNR is being modelled in the wrong scale!).

 

Jim (tin hat on, ducking in anticipation of incoming....)

 

[Skinnylinny]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

You do realise that's a London & North Western cattle wagon? Are you sure that's the way you want to go?

Alright, I'll bite... how about a London & South Western cattle wagon? Outside framed, too!

[Compound2632]

A quick bit of googling turns up a J.P. Richards model of a Great Eastern cattle wagon:

 

 

[https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co430845/model-cattle-wagon-model-railway-wagon]

 

... which has the feature I was hunting for as giving maximum period charm: X-framing.

 

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Compound2632

[Regularity]

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

maximum period charm: X-framing

I was going to say that!

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Regularity said:

I was going to say that!

 

Apologies for pipping you - but great minds think alike / fools seldom differ. (Delete to taste.)

Edited August 2, 2021 by Compound2632

[Regularity]

Just now, Compound2632 said:

Delete to taste.

I have no intentions of deleting you, dear chap. 
And that would be very tasteless.

[NeilHB]

Lots of delightful cattle vans featured on the last page - plenty of ideas for the Directors of Elsbridge Tramway Company to consider.

 

The Directors of said company raised the question of if the Directors of the West Norfolk Railway have perhaps considered sheep as a source of traffic, and present their current design of sheep wagon for inspection:

 

 

Entirely their own work, and not at all cribbed from those hale and hearty Caledonian folk north of the border…

 

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, NeilHB said:

Entirely their own work, and not at all cribbed from those hale and hearty Caledonian folk north of the border…

 

 I've never quite understood of the extra railings were intended to stop the sheep jumping out or to enable them to be piled in two deep.

 

But we've been here before (as so often):

 

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Compound2632
typo: before, not bore

[Edwardian]

So, yes.  The plan for the livestock wagons was to have at least 8 cattle wagons and 4 specifically for sheep; two double-deck covered ones and two of the four-planks modified as Neil has indicated - great minds, again!

 

However, the current plan is to make progress with the general merchandise (or 'merch', as Miss T would say) stock first, then, perhaps, the coal wagons. 

[uax6]

8 hours ago, NeilHB said:

Lots of delightful cattle vans featured on the last page - plenty of ideas for the Directors of Elsbridge Tramway Company to consider.

 

The Directors of said company raised the question of if the Directors of the West Norfolk Railway have perhaps considered sheep as a source of traffic, and present their current design of sheep wagon for inspection:

 

 

Entirely their own work, and not at all cribbed from those hale and hearty Caledonian folk north of the border…

 

The Highland Folk used raves quite extensively, the movement of sheep being one of the staples of the line...

 

I'm not quite sure when covered wagons finally replaced the raving of opens for sheep, I recall that the BoT mandated roofs for cattle wagons at some point, so did that also kill off the raves for sheep?

 

Andy G

[Edwardian]

9 minutes ago, uax6 said:

The Highland Folk used raves quite extensively, the movement of sheep being one of the staples of the line...

 

Yes, the original inspiration was Scottish, and I note that the Caledonian also fitted raves to open wagons, and it may have been one of these I first saw.

 

Since then I have acquired Mike Williams's book, which cites both 4 and 3-plank examples.

 

 

9 minutes ago, uax6 said:

I'm not quite sure when covered wagons finally replaced the raving of opens for sheep, I recall that the BoT mandated roofs for cattle wagons at some point, so did that also kill off the raves for sheep?

 

Andy G

 

Here the aforementioned tome is of some help.

 

Inspection holes, originally thought to be covered by pivoting wrought iron plates, were authorised in CR minutes of 1905 to meet a requirement of the Board of Agriculture & Fisheries, and are subsequently represented on drawings of open wagons fitted for sheep traffic.  

 

The CR's reaction to the Board instruction confirms that sheep conveyance in opens was still current and acceptable in 1905, the year CA is set. It would be fun to include the inspection holes, though when exactly the Board made its stipulation is not given by Williams.

 

The next legal requirement affecting the choice of wagon is noted as 1912, when the Animals (Transit and General) Order provided that ''Every falling loading door ... shall be fitted with longitudinal battens or other proper footholds''.

 

Williams notes an absence of drawings with this latter modification, which may, or may not, mean that the CR was still using raved open wagons for sheep traffic. It's clearly a modification that could be made to any drop-door opens, but is one that does not affect the WN in 1905.

[Nearholmer]

Readers may, or, more likely, may not, find this of some relevance

 https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=sheep+rave&&view=detail&mid=3EDDBBF84DBAFC8F58993EDDBBF84DBAFC8F5899&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dsheep%2Brave%26FORM%3DHDRSC3

 

(Honestly, this sort of thing is what first came to mind when I saw "rave" and "sheep" in the same sentence.)

 

[CKPR]

1 minute ago, Nearholmer said:

Honestly, this sort of thing is what first came to mind when I saw "rave" and "sheep" in the same sentence.)

 

When I hear just the word 'rave', this is what comes to mind...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRVaU9X0rOs

 

[Northroader]

Lots of cattle wagons:

[Tom Burnham]

If anywhere served by the West Norfolk had an annual cattle fair, that would take every WNR cattle truck that could turn a wheel, plus many borrowed from neighbouring companies.

[uax6]

53 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Lots of cattle wagons:

 

That brings to mind LTC Rolts journey on the Tralee and Dingle in the last part of his autobiography. He looked back and saw a loaded wagon jumping all over the place, it being off the road... A lovely storey of how it was sorted out...

Andy G 

[Edwardian]

21 minutes ago, Tom Burnham said:

If anywhere served by the West Norfolk had an annual cattle fair, that would take every WNR cattle truck that could turn a wheel, plus many borrowed from neighbouring companies.

 

I think Birchoverham Market and Achingham will have livestock markets

[Nearholmer]

One of the co-op owned turf railways in Ireland still uses 3ft gauge wagons that look pretty much like a 3/4 size, steel framed version of those open T&D cattle wagons. I’ve participated in re-railing those. The job involves as many guys as possible on each side, backs to the side of the wagon, hold under the side of the body near the sole bar, all bend knees, and one, two, three, hup!

 

Its all fairly do-able if the wagon is empty, but with about five tons of turf in it, not.

[Nick Holliday]

15 hours ago, CKPR said:

Knowing of your not unreasonable reservations about white-metal kits, there have been quite few pre-group cattle wagons available in 'margarine metal'  - the D&S ones are excellent, but you might want to give the old Model Wagon Co. / Kingdom Kits a wide berth even though the range included outside-framed cattle vans from the Caley, G&SWR, NBR and the Cambrian.

I was just wondering what was so wrong with the old MWC kits.  I know they were of their time, but I had no problems with the Cambrian and Highland cattle wagons I've built, and I have a full set of Scottish ones, including GNoSR, in my loft insulation.  The separate etched W-irons mean that there is no problem with cast axle-guards integral with the sides.