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I  knew there must be a link between sennet-hatted Tars and railways!

 

(and I'm sure I have some wargames figures of this ilk somewhere!)

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Although the pictures below are said to have been taken at Barnstaple, I suspect that they were really taken at either Wolfringham or perhaps even Madderport.

 

The steamers in the first picture look really short to me, and the second picture shows a collier, also small, discharging to the Lynton & Barnstaple railway Pilton Wharf on the right.

 

The sailing ketches were apparently used for sand and gravel, which was loaded by beaching them on banks in the river estuary at low tide, as well as for other, more general cargoes.

 

K

 

Kevin, these pictures, and the ones of Whitstable, are simply stunning.

 

The vessels, both sail and steam, are perfect for model harbours everywhere; Mereport, Wolfingham and Birchoverham Staithe included.

 

I had just typed "sailors in sennett or sennit hats are proving to be a massive distraction".  Then I thought about it for a second and decided not to.   

 

The photograph, in Alexandria in 1882, apparently, got me rummaging around in an outbuilding.  I found these:

post-25673-0-93512500-1469204533_thumb.jpg

post-25673-0-02352600-1469204569_thumb.jpg

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Simon, that is a wonderful collection.  Thanks for the link.

 

I was thinking that the locomotive had a familiar Beyer Peacock look to it, like the SMJ/E&WJR 0-6-0.  Turns out that BP supplied similar locomotives to the Egyptian State Railways in the late 1850s and early '60s.

 

I note that the cab sheet is built out to cover the splasher and the spring, and, of course, the (very shiny) dome casing has been removed, otherwise its not a bad match for the 1863 BP pictured below.

 

What do we reckon?

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post-25673-0-11194700-1469210835.jpg

post-25673-0-40707200-1469210910.jpg

Edited by Edwardian
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Latin American and Australian railways had lots of Beyer Peacock products too, many of which were very closely related - also the Belfast & County Down. Some designs had clear links to Metropolitan tank locos; others to Beattie and Adams LSWR designs. Beyer Peacock would be a good choice for any fictitious railway, as would someone like Sharp Stewart.

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Latin American and Australian railways had lots of Beyer Peacock products too, many of which were very closely related - also the Belfast & County Down. Some designs had clear links to Metropolitan tank locos; others to Beattie and Adams LSWR designs. Beyer Peacock would be a good choice for any fictitious railway, as would someone like Sharp Stewart.

 

Indeed, I had thought about a "not an Ilfracombe Goods" for CA.  By this I mean, one of the type, as I believe it was a BP design, not a LSWR design.  Of course the Ilfracombe Goods were all accounted for!

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Sailing barges were used as "local distributors" of coal, if not to make the entire voyage from the NE. A decent-sized ship would discharge to either lighters or sailing barges, depending upon the nature of the waterway to the final destination.

 

 

 

My favourite coal delivery route of this kind was: collier from NE to Rye Harbour; onwards by Rye Barge, which was a sort of very small and thin sailing barge, up the various tributaries, to wharves, or semi-decent bits of riverbank, where unloading was by plank and barrow. One destination was Brede pumping station, which was about a mile from the river, so the final part involved unloading using a small steam crane and buckets, to an 18" gauge railway, with trains hauled by a teeny little Bagnall 0-4-0ST. Goodness only knows what was being paid for each ton of coal by the time they burned it, given the immensely labour-intensive process of getting it the length of England!

 

 

Kevin

 

 

The E W Cooke etching of a collier brig being unloaded by 'jumping up' dates from the 1850s or thereabouts but much the same technique was still being used at the turn of the century where cargoes had to be offloaded into lighters for onwards transport. This happened to cargoes destined for Cley Quay at this time as the Glaven had silted up noticeably, coal being trans-shipped in the area known as 'The Pit' which had relatively deep water even at low tide. The barges would then be quanted up to Cley on the next flood tide. Blakeney Quay still saw ships of around 100 tons tying up – one of them was a steamer http://www.thenuclearfamily.co.uk/cgi-bin/viewp.cgi?code=14&m=23&title='S.S.+Taffy'+of+Blakeney&date=1905&capt=Capt.+L.+Thompson – and there was a small steam tug (paddle) operating there from the late C19 (I have the dates somewhere...). Trade at these small Norfolk creeks was killed off by a combination of factors: creeks getting smaller, ships getting bigger and trade going to the railways. Wells is the only one that survived WW2.

 

 

PS: some really wonderful photos turning up here!

Edited by wagonman
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The Ipswich Maritime Trust have put some interesting pictures of the docks in this archive, including quite a lot of railway content:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/imt_image_archive/albums

 

Like this - https://www.flickr.com/photos/imt_image_archive/24228993273/in/album-72157664185274902/

There is quite an extensive article on the railways of Ipswich in the July issue of Steam Days though I haven't read my copy yet.

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Talking of Blakeney:

pc00069-01-300x201.jpg

 

 

The image isn't loading, alas...

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Back to Wells, there some nice pictures on the Francis Frith website.

(Normally I would insert a linked image, but FF are a bit touchy and it ain't worth the hustle.)

http://photos.francisfrith.com/frith/wells-next-the-sea-the-quay-1929_81996_large.jpg

http://photos.francisfrith.com/frith/wells-next-the-sea-whelk-boats-at-the-quay-1929_81998.jpg

 

Those two are supposedly 1929, but look at the hat on the man in the second photo...

 

Gets my seal of approval:

BigSeal_r1_c3.jpg

 

Looks a bit like something Jeremy Corbyn would wear...

 

The Bullards' pub in the background of the East Quay photo was arranged with its back to the water right up to the time it closed in the 1990s (I've forgotten the exact date). That it has now been converted into flats is testimony to a missed opportunity!

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Simon

 

That picture is of King's Lynn??!!

 

Well done, because it is brilliant one, and I failed to find a good one of KL, despite a fair hunt yesterday evening.

 

BP locos are a good bet for an independent railway, and it would be nice to have a big tank engine as well as a tender engine. I got a surprise to encounter one in Bilbao, when I went to a conference there at the time of opening of the first part of their metro, more than twenty years ago. There was a large 2-6-0 or 4-6-0 tank, like an enlarged Met or IoM loco, plinthed at one of the suburban line termini. They had them in Majorca too, and the IoM-type were all the rage on Swedish secondary lines.

 

BP locos look elegant, as well as being very practical.

 

Kevin

 

Edit: found a photo of the Bilbao loco, and memory had tricked me; its a 4-4-0.

post-26817-0-46201000-1469220920_thumb.jpg

Edited by Nearholmer
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Late to the wagon party (phone line exploded thanks to the storms on Wednesday!)  but here's another contender for bashing - Hornby's current 3 plank offering mated to a Cambrian Models Gloucester underframe. 

 

post-21854-0-37531600-1469354338_thumb.jpg

 

post-21854-0-80177100-1469354419_thumb.jpg

 

One note of caution, the BP metro locos whilst looking fantastically archaic are also fantastically heavy, and would not suit a lightly built line. They were too heavy for the Cambrian Coast Line until 1915 when the section was upgraded, so I shouldn't really have any  let alone 2! 

 

A Sharp Stewart 2-4-2T would be very bashable from a Bachmann L&Y tank, they were built in many varieties of size which all looked much the same for home and abroad and would be nicely suited to somewhere out of the way - The Manchester & Milford had 2, both different sizes!

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Late to the wagon party (phone line exploded thanks to the storms on Wednesday!)  but here's another contender for bashing - Hornby's current 3 plank offering mated to a Cambrian Models Gloucester underframe.

Are any of the PO liveries it's available in accurate, and suitable for the West Country in 1905?

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Couldn't tell you I'm afraid, in fact I can't recall what livery mine originally carried before I applied my own. 

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Just came across this site for Ragstone Models.

 

Although 7mm, there's a few images of pre-grouping GER wagons, coaches, etc..

 

Coaches

 

Wagons

 

Locos

 

Edit for spelling, or rather, lack of spelling!

Edited by Shadow
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Did I mention coal traffic at King's Lynn?

heritage-weekendThe-Alexandra-Dock-after

Alexandra Dock, not long after opening in 1869.

 

What a superb photograph, for all manner of details

I reckon quite a lot: I have been researching the SMJ for a third of a century!

 

That is essentially a standard Beyer, Peacock design. Details evolved over time, but it variants went to Holland, Sweden and Belgium to name 3 countries closer to home. Very few of the orders required a new drawing: the erecting shop foreman could probably get ne assembled from standard components.

 

If you get a better side view of the cab, you can see that there was a fairly low rectangular splasher over the rear wheels: the side panel coming further up the side is an aesthetic detail.

 

The earlier photo looked more like one of the 4'6" wheeled variants. EWJR 11 had 5' wheels and a different wheelbase. (Both diameters are nominal, and would be larger with later tyres.)

 

What is interesting is that the third picture shows an engine with what is usually a much later design of tender, which did not appear on the EWJR until 1903, with the delivery of 2-4-0 number 13.

 

There is some sketchy information about the engines on my website: http://ewjr.org/locomotives-of-the-ewjr/

I really must put more information up there, but I have run out of steam as far as that project goes.

 

Beyer Peacock and Sharp Stewart designs are very much on my RADAR and I am grateful for this additional information, thanks Simon.

 

 

The E W Cooke etching of a collier brig being unloaded by 'jumping up' dates from the 1850s or thereabouts but much the same technique was still being used at the turn of the century where cargoes had to be offloaded into lighters for onwards transport. This happened to cargoes destined for Cley Quay at this time as the Glaven had silted up noticeably, coal being trans-shipped in the area known as 'The Pit' which had relatively deep water even at low tide. The barges would then be quanted up to Cley on the next flood tide. Blakeney Quay still saw ships of around 100 tons tying up – one of them was a steamer http://www.thenuclearfamily.co.uk/cgi-bin/viewp.cgi?code=14&m=23&title='S.S.+Taffy'+of+Blakeney&date=1905&capt=Capt.+L.+Thompson – and there was a small steam tug (paddle) operating there from the late C19 (I have the dates somewhere...). Trade at these small Norfolk creeks was killed off by a combination of factors: creeks getting smaller, ships getting bigger and trade going to the railways. Wells is the only one that survived WW2.

 

 

PS: some really wonderful photos turning up here!

 

That is very helpful, thanks

 

Late to the wagon party (phone line exploded thanks to the storms on Wednesday!)  but here's another contender for bashing - Hornby's current 3 plank offering mated to a Cambrian Models Gloucester underframe. 

 

attachicon.gifDSXT3987.jpg

 

attachicon.gifBFI-DSXT1775.jpg

 

One note of caution, the BP metro locos whilst looking fantastically archaic are also fantastically heavy, and would not suit a lightly built line. They were too heavy for the Cambrian Coast Line until 1915 when the section was upgraded, so I shouldn't really have any  let alone 2! 

 

A Sharp Stewart 2-4-2T would be very bashable from a Bachmann L&Y tank, they were built in many varieties of size which all looked much the same for home and abroad and would be nicely suited to somewhere out of the way - The Manchester & Milford had 2, both different sizes!

 

Thanks.  I will look up[ those tanks.  In the meantime, that looks to be a very do-able conversion, and I know just the PO it would suit!

 

Just came across this site for Ragstone Models.

 

 

Although 7mm, there's a few images of pre-grouping GER wagons, coaches, etc..

 

Coaches

 

Wagons

 

Locos

 

Edit for spelling, or rather, lack of spelling!

 

Dave, that's a great find.  I've had a good look and I find that, while I have outline drawings and dimensions for nearly all of these, the pictures of the completed models and the prototype history notes in the pdf instructions add invaluable information that will make all the difference.  New to me was the W&U luggage van, which is a 'must'!

 

I note that the 'wool wagons' were used for other traffic - suggestions? - and that the bolsters for saw timber.  This made me think of the Baltic timber trade.  it certainly used to go to Wisbech (and Mereport) and probably to King's Lynn, in which case the Bishop's Lynn line might well have seen considerable timber traffic.  This would need to run into CA before its onward journey.

 

I have been thinking of kidnapping a Huntley & Palmer Peckett on the off-chance H&P built a subsidiary works in Norfolk, perhaps to produce the Sandringham, Norfolk Lavender Biscuit.  On balance, I think I'd better just save up for the works green version, Dodo, for which there is already every excuse!

 

So, a lot of catching up to do, and I must get modelling in earnest again now.  Some really excellent pictures are cropping up.

 

Kevin's BP tank made me think od one of those big wheeled Adams jobs; I am sure Mr Rice ran one on one of his East Anglia back waters. 

 

In the meantime, I saw this and was struck with the thought:

 

Irony is priceless, for everything else, there's MasterCard ....

post-25673-0-79996300-1469462280.jpg

Edited by Edwardian
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Er, yes .......

 

I think your railway might be a bit too early to secure a good secondhand North London Railway 4-4-0T; I think they remained in service until electrification of the line during WW1.

 

The Met or the District will be pleased to offer a number of 4-4-0T for you to choose from, though, because they are electrifying, and flogging-off locos at exactly your date.

 

K

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Er, yes .......

 

I think your railway might be a bit too early to secure a good secondhand North London Railway 4-4-0T; I think they remained in service until electrification of the line during WW1.

 

The Met or the District will be pleased to offer a number of 4-4-0T for you to choose from, though, because they are electrifying, and flogging-off locos at exactly your date.

 

K

 

 

But note the caveat regarding weight... Shows how well built the Met's Brill branch was!

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BP locos look elegant, as well as being very practical.

 

Kevin

 

Much as I love them, I would hesitate to call Beyer Peacock locos 'elegant'. Normally they remind of awkward teenagers with severe acne (all those snap head rivets). Now Sharp Stewart on the other hand produced some wonderfully elegant locos, like svelte young ladies... Better let that analogy lie.

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I have allowed myself to become distracted.  Here is what the HaT figures look like.  I decided that I wanted to add a couple of Midshipmen, so I took a couple of Alamo defenders and modified them.

 

What this has to do with model railways or Castle Aching, I'm not sure, but it's a nice bit of Victoriana and all model-making is good practice!

post-25673-0-19542200-1469472087_thumb.jpg

post-25673-0-13366700-1469472119_thumb.jpg

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Sharp Stewart ... produced some wonderfully elegant locos, like svelte young ladies... Better let that analogy lie.

 

Agree (on both counts!)

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Er, yes .......

 

I think your railway might be a bit too early to secure a good secondhand North London Railway 4-4-0T; I think they remained in service until electrification of the line during WW1.

 

The Met or the District will be pleased to offer a number of 4-4-0T for you to choose from, though, because they are electrifying, and flogging-off locos at exactly your date.

 

K

 

Dont buy a Metropolitan 4-4-0T the Cambrian did and found them useless for their line. MAybe they might be better suited to the flatter WNR but they wern't really suited to the slower pace of rural lines.

 

Don 

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I love the slim boiler, and the large rounded domes...

 

"Oooooh, Matron!"

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But note the caveat regarding weight... Shows how well built the Met's Brill branch was!

 

Yep - 16T 15cwt over the leading driver, 16T 14cwt over the rear. and 11tons  the bogie. Put into perspective, the Cambrian's Sharp Stewart standard 2-4-0s of similar vintage had a max axle load of 10 Tons. The tender conversions to the met tanks brought them down to 14T 11cwt max axle load. 

Edited by Quarryscapes
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Hmm......

 

In my newly assumed role of secondhand engine salesman for the London railways, I think I've come up with the ideal tank engine for the WNR.

 

The Met D tanks, which were Sharp Stewart 2-4-0T built in the late 1890s, which proved too light and too rigid for the Met, and possibly too unstable due to a high boiler centreline, and were scrapped, some IIRC when not even ten years old. Definitely in the "nearly new; one careful owner" category. And, Electrotren used to make something very similar in H0.

 

The great "secret" of the BP 4-4-0T, and the related designs, was the ability to squiggle round sharp horizontal and vertical curves without damaging the track. The Brill branch was relaid with proper, chaired, track when the Met took it over, but the D tanks damaged it, so the A were used instead.

 

Of course, Sir, if you are looking for something a little smaller, we have a very good range of Mr Stroudley's Terriers in stock ........... And, if you come round to the back of the shed we have a pair of GWR Metro tanks, which we bought-in when the Hammersmith Line was electrified.

 

Kevin

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post-26817-0-09883000-1469517672.jpg

Edited by Nearholmer
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