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1 hour ago, wagonman said:

Empire Gauge (3' 6" I believe)

3'6" is "Cape Gauge".

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I think CA has wandered far enough OT for me to post how cultural our neck of the old NW Durham woods is getting !

1034969743_Crossconc.jpg.9c9ac6eb22ad5fcb13b70a5cee14da84.jpg 

 

The pub next door has been saved as a Community pub and re-opened in the summer (we all own shares). Two of the Northern Symphonia live in 'the Avenues' the other side of the pub so Mike (an oboe player) got levered on to the Committee as 'Entertainment Director',. 

It has been a revelation - those stuffed shirts are brilliantly funny: they played a lot more than what was on the programme, saying how enjoyable it is to play in the pub's upstairs 'function room' so close to their (sell out) audience.

Abigail the licencee had a trio of cocktails already waiting (designed with Mike) to suit each of the main works on the programme. The horn player (all the way down from Greenside our adjoining former pit village) demonstrated how his horn had evolved from the horn French huntsmen wore around them.

dh

Early railway relevance: Greenside, Ryton and the Tyne were apparently connected by a railway as early as 1605 - yonks before Mozart with his toilet humour. 

Edited by runs as required
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3 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

Smitings too good for them, they're all very naughty boys!!!

 

The best bit is when IKBs Topper is revealed as a multi-heatray turret, spinnning about and, yes, smiting, several targets almost simultaneously...

 

Kaboom!!!

 

With his cigar pouring out clouds of the noxious Black Smoke, that lies in the valleys and river courses and suffocates all who are enveloped by it. Except of course the Churchill family who are strangely immune.

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3 hours ago, Regularity said:

Of course, the main building is called La Grand Arche.

Which is an unfortunate homophone for a German word...

 

Remaining in the same nether region;

 

The name of the salesforce automation system we were flogging into Germany in the mid-1990's was called FastTrack.

 

Much merriment ensued when hearing potential customers pronouncing it in more gutteral German, coming out as "Fass-trek" - sounding exactly like "Fass Dreck" - 

(barrel of sh*t -  which was by chance much better description and not a symptom of honesty breaking out in our Sales & Marketing).

 

 

Edited by TT-Pete
Crimes against grammer.
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Regarding the map of the March 1933 German election, I find it interesting to note that, despite SA violence and pressure to vote for the NSDAP, the Centre Party still managed to get somewhere.

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It's funny how the media start squawking about Class War when the Left strikes back, ignoring the fact that the Tories have been fighting, and winning, class war for years. 

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5 hours ago, Annie said:

In Colonial times 3ft 6in gauge suited our landscape well, - especially in the hilly and mountainous North Island.  However in the South Island with their wide plains country they could have done with something wider.  Our railways have been got at by modernists and corporate jargon speakers in the same way that occured in Britain and they are now a shadow of what they once were.

 

It would be relatively straight forward just to double the gauge - possibly add a quarter inch or so.  The old Great Western acheived their final gauge conversion in just a few days.  Is widening as easy as narrowing?

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11 minutes ago, Adam88 said:

  Is widening as easy as narrowing?

 

Almost certainly not - all the civil engineering and in particular the width of the formation - the foundation layers for the track - will have been built for the narrower gauge and require widening. Where re-doubling is being done in Britain, it isn't as simple as just laying new track on the old formation: to meet current standards, the entire line has to be re-engineered. 

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1 hour ago, wagonman said:

It's funny how the media start squawking about Class War when the Left strikes back, ignoring the fact that the Tories have been fighting, and winning, class war for years. 

 

Here was I forgetting that two wrongs make a right. Yes, let's demonise the hated Few (and I note a few of the Few have already been named) in favour of the entirely abstract Many. 

 

I say "a plague on both their houses".  People versus Parliament, Many versus Few. Deliberately devisive populist claptrap the lot of it!  Oh for a party that wanted to help "the All"!

 

 

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Personally I think using 'The Few' today is perhaps the best choice of words...

image.png.bc9446615877dfdb9c2aef74ad0b1f15.png

Another day, perhaps.

Edited by sem34090
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9 minutes ago, sem34090 said:

Personally I think using 'The Few' today is perhaps the best choice of words...

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_11/image.png.bc9446615877dfdb9c2aef74ad0b1f15.png

Another day, perhaps.

 

Yes, a pity the "the Few" has been given a different meaning.

 

Sounds like Labour's taxation policy: Never was so much owed to the Many by the Few. 

 

 

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What puzzles me is why nobody ever seems to mention one of the biggest problems. At the time of the financial crash it was accepted that personal, and national borrowing was too high. Unfortunately the econony had grown to a position where the only thing driving the economy upward was the borrowing. Cut back on the borrowing and the economy would shrink which would mean less money for businesses and workers which would mean less spending unless we borrowed more rather a vicious downward spiral. We have an economy based on contiual growth rather like a mad treadmill where we need to work harder to spend more to keep it going. If the government borrows a lot more we  will probably have to pay more tax to cover the interest which will take more money out of the system.

I find the enthusiasm for inward foreign investment puzzling for at the end of the day the profits go out of the country. Investment by UK nationals or Pension companies would keep more of the profits with the UK.

One of my concerns about the Climate Change problems is a personal belief that in order to achieve the reduction it is likely to mean we need a big reduction in consumption which will starve the economy of the money needed.

It is factors like the above that mean there are not simple solution to economic issues.  Gordon Brown thought the tax relief on investments by Pension funds too generous and the money raised by stopping them could be better used elsewhere. Unfortunately that coupled with new regulations that demanded firms had to ensure pension funds were keeping pace with pension liabilities and the increasing life expectancy meant final salary pensions became too expensive for firms. The net result is that an awful lot of workers will find their pensions will be a lot less generous than those of their parents. It may well cause the government (and hence us) problems if too many need benefits because their pension is insufficient.

 

Don

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We tried Militant Centrism under Blair. It didn't end well. So, in the words of Pte Fraser: we're all doomed!

 

 

 

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20 hours ago, sem34090 said:

That said... without resorting to CGI they'd be hard pushed to find real vehicles enough to make complete trains of LSWR, SER, LNWR, MR and GNR stock these days.

Couldnt they get their carpenters/set designers to build a rake of suitably generic 4 wheel stock which could sort of look the part for most railways if relettered or repainted. I believe Messrs hattons might have some drawings they could use....

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14 hours ago, Annie said:

In Colonial times 3ft 6in gauge suited our landscape well, - especially in the hilly and mountainous North Island.  However in the South Island with their wide plains country they could have done with something wider.  Our railways have been got at by modernists and corporate jargon speakers in the same way that occured in Britain and they are now a shadow of what they once were.

 

 

Well in Australia every separate colony demonstrated that it was its inalienable right to have a separate gauge to every other colony. :rtfm:

 

In Victoria, for what reason God alone only knows, we have the 5'3" Irish gauge,  while our fellow colonists in NSW colony wisely went for standard. That meant that everyone who travelled to Sydney for the next century on the overnight train had to wake up at the Victorian/NSW border and change trains. It was only in the 1960s nearly 60 years after Federation) that this idiotic anomaly was overcome by standardising the main rail link. By which time air travel and buses had cut the number of people using rail so it became uneconomical. As you sow, so shall you reap.

 

In our smallest state Tasmania, the gauge is 3'  something probably because it's the smallest state and the locals aspire to be cute and cuddly, if their fatuous local Green politicians are anything to go by.

 

Nostalgia is a wonderful thing but believe me getting woken up at 1 in the morning just after you've finally nodded off to sleep to change trains because of ancient colonial rivalries is a pain in the posterior.

Edited by Malcolm 0-6-0
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12 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Can't argue with the will of the People!

 

So would that be another way of saying that in intellectual terms the will of the people is a will of the wisp? 

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13 hours ago, wagonman said:

We tried Militant Centrism under Blair. It didn't end well. So, in the words of Pte Fraser: we're all doomed!

 

 

 

Given the policies followed by the BBC when first broadcast, I feel that Fraser was excessively bowdlerised...

 

8 hours ago, brack said:

Couldnt they get their carpenters/set designers to build a rake of suitably generic 4 wheel stock which could sort of look the part for most railways if relettered or repainted. I believe Messrs hattons might have some drawings they could use....

 

Given that the forthcoming BBC adaptation of TWOTW was filmed in Liverpool and its environs, it wouldn't surprise me if a well known "Liverpool" retailer wasn't approached for some model railway stock to include in the production (cast your mind back to the railway scene in Ripper Street...).  This may well have influenced the proposed production of "generic" 4 and 6 wheeled stock!  Of course, TWOTW might end up with a rake of "suitably" painted Hornby 4-wheelers hauled by a Terrier....

 

 

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7 hours ago, Malcolm 0-6-0 said:

 

 

Well in Australia every separate colony demonstrated that it was its inalienable right to have a separate gauge to every other colony. https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/emoticons/default_rtfm.gif

 

In Victoria, for what reason God alone only knows, we have the 5'3" Irish gauge,  while our fellow colonists in NSW colony wisely went for standard. That meant that everyone who travelled to Sydney for the next century on the overnight train had to wake up at the Victorian/NSW border and change trains. It was only in the 1960s nearly 60 years after Federation) that this idiotic anomaly was overcome by standardising the main rail link. By which time air travel and buses had cut the number of people using rail so it became uneconomical. As you sow, so shall you reap.

 

In our smallest state Tasmania, the gauge is 3'  something probably because it's the smallest state and the locals aspire to be cute and cuddly, if their fatuous local Green politicians are anything to go by.

 

Nostalgia is a wonderful thing but believe me getting woken up at 1 in the morning just after you've finally nodded off to sleep to change trains because of ancient colonial rivalries is a pain in the posterior.

 

Wouldn't it be easier to get an earlier train so you changed trians before midnight ?

Don

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17 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Almost certainly not - all the civil engineering and in particular the width of the formation - the foundation layers for the track - will have been built for the narrower gauge and require widening. Where re-doubling is being done in Britain, it isn't as simple as just laying new track on the old formation: to meet current standards, the entire line has to be re-engineered. 

Also one of the key advantages of using narrow gauge (ie less than 4ft 8 1/2 in) as expounded in the late c19 and early c20 was that smaller radius curves could be used, enabling the line to follow the contours of the land more and reducing the volume of earthworks.  Clearly this would be a greater problem in hilly terrain than over flat plains.

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4 hours ago, Donw said:

 

Wouldn't it be easier to get an earlier train so you changed trians before midnight ?

Don

 

There were only two - the daylight which left at the crack of dawn and the overnight. It was a long trip from Melbourne to Sydney. But on both you still had to change at the border which made it even longer, but that was fixed when they finally standardised the line. Personally I prefer to fly.

 

The shorter leg of the journey was at the Victorian end running from Melbourne to Albury on the Murray River which was the town on the border between the two former colonies where each colony/state's line met.. The NSW part was several hours longer. We aren't dealing with the sort of travel as on relatively short trips like the ECML or the WCML as in the UK.

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3 hours ago, Tom Burnham said:

Also one of the key advantages of using narrow gauge (ie less than 4ft 8 1/2 in) as expounded in the late c19 and early c20 was that smaller radius curves could be used, enabling the line to follow the contours of the land more and reducing the volume of earthworks.  Clearly this would be a greater problem in hilly terrain than over flat plains.

An excuse to post one of my favourite Cuneo paintings: "The climb to Asmara".

1554845646_climbtoAsmara.jpg.7e3c7af5d4f2ee37df968b66e949ee40.jpg

You can find 3 tunnel mouths in the composition. 

Alan Moorhead's "The Blue Nile" is also worth reading about the Expeditionary Force of Indian railway engineers under General Napier who spent 3 years building  a railway up from the Red Sea as a punitive assault on Ethiopia to rescue a party of (presumably Anglican) missionaries from the Ethiopian Coptic Christians.

Their railway was dismantled as the Force withdrew from the highlands.

dh

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Re: Track Gauges.

 

Although this subject is easily 150 to 200 years pre-grouping, people might like to be aware of the recent archaeology and research in two recent publications:-

'Setting the Standard' ed.Dominique Bell - Reports on the Willington Waggonway of 1785                           - ISBN 9780905974989

'The Railway Revolution' by Les Turnbull - Early Railways of the Great Northern Coalfield - 1605 to 1830  - ISBN9780993115158

 

To summarise - the extent of waggonways in the coalfields of Northumberland and Durham was much greater than I had supposed. By the early 1800s, many of these were inter-linked and using similar equipment.

Gauges varied but tended to be between 4'3" and 4'8 1/2".

Principal factor in determining gauge was the width of a horse's backside, with room for shafts and/or haulage ropes, and the wheels had to be outside those.

By 1811 the Killingworth Waggonway and some of it's connections was working on 4'8" (and possibly 1/2).

George therefore used a gauge for which there was already a considerable mileage and a lot of equipment.

 

Like many people I had tended to date the 'Railway Revolution' from the S&D in 1825, but in fact the S&D marked an important transition to the '2nd Railway Revolution'. 

Mr Turnbull gives quantities and values for the amount of coal moved, and the wagons, horses and men involved.

No wonder there was commercial incentive to use coal/steam haulage. The names of Blackett and Hedley were familiar, but I didn't realise that there was a Blenkinsop engine (cogged wheels and track) running at Coxlodge in 1813.

 

So, perhaps Mr I.K. Brunel was accurate in calling 4'8 1/2" the 'coal-cart' gauge, but by 1824/5 it was already a proven concept with experience and engineering in support!

What a shame he didn't manage to think through the requirements for track engineering more thoroughly!

 

(Of course even Mr G Stephenson didn't do that - the stone block sleepers of the S&D, and most of the L&M were meant to be solid 'like the foundations of an hoose'.)

Which is ironic since all the waggonway experience was with timber cross-sleepers!

 

 

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