Castle Aching

[Nearholmer]

Tom

 

Thank you for the Gazelle article; excellent stuff.

 

The footnote in the book I got yesterday mentions the story having come from "Mr Clark", who you cite too, so it sounds as if there are two, not three, reported sightings of the second engine, and it could so easily have been Gazelle herself, could it not?

 

Kevin

[ChrisN]

I have been trying to find out the wheelbase of the Electroten for ages so thank you.  It is completely wrong as I need 7ft 3" and 6ft 9", so if anyone knows a chassis to suit please shout.  (It is for an old 0-4-2.)

[Nearholmer]

Apologies for dragging matters back to equine power, but this needs to be seen to be believed.

 

Appears to overcome all of our objections to the previous one, by use of a wonderfully complex array of gears.

 

Invented by an Italian, it was tested on the LSWR. Hamilton-Ellis said: 'Certainly, the Impulsoria worked. It could pull 30 wagons up the incline of Nine Elms Goods, and two horses could give it a speed of 7 m.p.h. With four horses, in top gear, it ought to be able to run faster than the South Western engines, ‘even at 60 m.p.h. without ever altering the usual walking pace of the horses.’

Edited January 8, 2017 by Nearholmer

[ChrisN]

Where is the 'dumbfounded' button!  And it was actually tested!

[Nearholmer]

In two European countries, as well as England, apparently.

 

Tramway people, on the other hand, were keen to rid themselves of horses, and actually tested a locomotive that was powered by convicts pedalling, in Northampton in the 1880s. A sort of public transport slave galley, I suppose.

[BG John]

Think of the speed and power of a broad gauge Impulsoria, with the extra width to accommodate more horses!

[Donw]

I think to match a King with 14 up would take rather a lot of horses. I think the WNR would do best to stick to steam engines despite Mrs Edwardian's love of horses. The best use of horses was for shunting the ability of a horse not to be trapped the wrong side of a wagon on a dead end siding for a start.

 

Don

[runs as required]

I went away from reading these posts about horsepower trying to remember how the original rating of hp was calculated (by Geordie Stephenson ?)

Then those estimations of hp being generated by writers such as Cecil J Allen and O.S.Nock who were hooked on timing locomotive performance with stop watches on the cushions.

That would lead to me trying to visualise how those thousands of horses might be accommodated on a train as it addressed Shap and then Beattock (or indeed the 8 'treasury horses' under the bonnet of my Scoutmaster's small Morris).

dh

 

Edit

I'd forgotten the golden rule: Google before you post

I've now checked the history of horsepower here where Wiki reminds us it was Thomas Savery in the "Miner's Friend" of 1702 writing about draft horses operating a pump. Savery took out a  patent in 1699 for such a pump. Newcomen built his atmospheric engine in 1712 - in the French Wars just as my Steam Horse avatar  was developed by Brunton a century later when horses became more expensive than men in Wellington's Napoleonic campaigns.

Edited January 9, 2017 by runs as required

[Nearholmer]

I probably shouldn't be wasting mental energy on the Impulsoria, but I have been ......

 

Given that the basic version is standard gauge, and that standard gauge is supposed to have been derived from the width across a horse's backside, can the Impulsoria really have accommodated two horses abreast, Given that the treadmill is between the two large wheels, and that there appears to be a bit of clearance for the machinery?

 

Wikipedia is notably weak on the width of horses, so perhaps Edwardian, who clearly has much experience in equine matters, could comment.

 

On power, if we accept that the standard unit (746W = 1hp) is fairly representative of the sustained output of a horse, the four horse version yields roughly 3kW, some of which will be wasted in the contraption. This is actually almost exactly the rating of the first practical dynamo-electric locomotive (Siemens & Halske, 1879), which definitely delivered useful work. Early electric trams were of similar rating, but it was quickly found that c7.5kW was really necessary to yield worthwhile speeds. Another way of looking at it, is that the four horse version is about the same power as 15 reasonably fit (not super-fit) chaps riding bikes ...... which gets back to the convict-powered tram loco.

 

K

Edited January 9, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

I have only just picked up on this excellent thread and its evocative village. The use of the building papers and scene setting is very reminiscent of John Ahern's work: to me, one of the highlights at Pendon. You would get on well with my friend Matthew Wald, a legal eagle in deepest Cornwall, who has made many of the buildings on Copenhagen Fields and also has horses to keep him poor.

 

One comment, if I may; to give the village a sense of 'place' and geographical orientation, should the roofs have some moss on them?

 

Tim

 

Tim, welcome!

 

And thank you for your kind words. It is amazing what one learns from the erudite contributors to this topic, and it has certainly helped to expand my knowledge and to develop my basic skills.

 

I am a great admirer of the magnificent  Copenhagen Fields, which, if memory serves, has used perspective modelling to great effect. 

 

Also, I have to say, of Madder Valley. It is probably heretical to say so, but, much as I admire the Vale Scene, which has some claim to be the apogee of scenic modelling, it is John Ahern's pioneering work that makes me smile and provides much inspiration. To be told that Castle Aching is reminiscent of John Ahern's work makes me happy indeed.

 

Yes, I used to think that horses were for people who hated money and wanted to get rid of as much of it as possible as quickly as possible.  That was before I met yacht owners. I note that your friend Matthew is an insolvency specialist and, like me, a higher rights advocate!

 

Now you make a very good point concerning geographical orientation and moss.  At the moment, I can tell you that south is generally to the left, and you will see that, so far, there are few north/right facing roofs visible.  However, the precise orientation is awaiting the positioning of the parish church, and only then will I know in which direction north truly lies. 

[Fenman]

... CMR No.15, Sharp Stewart Works No. 2370 of 1874, to Lynn & Fakenham Railway, 1880, as No. 3 Blakeney, rebuilt to 2-4-0 in 1891-2, withdrawn 1899.

...

That's prompted an idle thought. The M&GN originally I ntended their seaside route to go to Blakeney rather than Cromer, but had a change of heart. (Cromer Beach opened in 1887.)

 

I wonder if this engine was named in anticipation of the original route? Poor old Blakeney never got a railway connection.

 

Paul

[Poggy1165]

Apparently because Blakeney was a declining port, while Cromer was a developing resort for the 'better class' of tourist. A few years may have made a difference to the decision-making.

[Edwardian]

Apologies for dragging matters back to equine power, but this needs to be seen to be believed.

 

Appears to overcome all of our objections to the previous one, by use of a wonderfully complex array of gears.

 

Invented by an Italian, it was tested on the LSWR. Hamilton-Ellis said: 'Certainly, the Impulsoria worked. It could pull 30 wagons up the incline of Nine Elms Goods, and two horses could give it a speed of 7 m.p.h. With four horses, in top gear, it ought to be able to run faster than the South Western engines, ‘even at 60 m.p.h. without ever altering the usual walking pace of the horses.’

 

I probably shouldn't be wasting mental energy on the Impulsoria, but I have been ......

 

Given that the basic version is standard gauge, and that standard gauge is supposed to have been derived from the width across a horse's backside, can the Impulsoria really have accommodated two horses abreast, Given that the treadmill is between the two large wheels, and that there appears to be a bit of clearance for the machinery?

 

Wikipedia is notably weak on the width of horses, so perhaps Edwardian, who clearly has much experience in equine matters, could comment.

 

On power, if we accept that the standard unit (746W = 1hp) is fairly representative of the sustained output of a horse, the four horse version yields roughly 3kW, some of which will be wasted in the contraption. This is actually almost exactly the rating of the first practical dynamo-electric locomotive (Siemens & Halske, 1879), which definitely delivered useful work. Early electric trams were of similar rating, but it was quickly found that c7.5kW was really necessary to yield worthwhile speeds. Another way of looking at it, is that the four horse version is about the same power as 15 reasonably fit (not super-fit) chaps riding bikes ...... which gets back to the convict-powered tram loco.

 

K

 

Magnificent, and it's called the Impulsoria!

 

The width of the horse will depend on the breed, its size and condition. 

 

Most horses are probably between 14hs plus (the cut off for ponies in the UK is 14.2h) and 17h. The higher the horse, generally, the proportionately wider it will be.    

 

An average width of a horse across the chest is probably something like 2'6", so I think you are right to question whether 2 horses harnessed abreast would fit within gauge.

 

Not very coherent today, sorry, in bed with lurgy.

[Donw]

 I agree with the comments about Madder Valley both the excellence of John Ahern's work and the quality and style of Castle Aching. John Ahern definitely had the eye of an Artist  I believe you do too James. Your comment about the Yacht owners is so true judging by the value of those on the Dart which rarely moved. I suspect Blakeney like many other small ports was subject to silting and was not suited to the larger vessels which came in in the later 1800s. Besides the railways changed many things and the cost of say delivering from a larger port reduced and became a factor in survival of the smaller ones. 

Don

[TheQ]

Magnificent, and it's called the Impulsoria!

 

The width of the horse will depend on the breed, its size and condition. 

 

Most horses are probably between 14hs plus (the cut off for ponies in the UK is 14.2h) and 17h. The higher the horse, generally, the proportionately wider it will be.    

 

An average width of a horse across the chest is probably something like 2'6", so I think you are right to question whether 2 horses harnessed abreast would fit within gauge.

 

Not very coherent today, sorry, in bed with lurgy.

A Carriage width is 8 ft,+, (unless underground or southern) plenty of room for two horses, maybe three if they're not huge., Horse boxes were almost always for two side by side

[Edwardian]

A Carriage width is 8 ft,+, (unless underground or southern) plenty of room for two horses, maybe three if they're not huge., Horse boxes were almost always for two side by side

 

Nearholmer's point is that the horses are shown between the wheels of the Impulsoria.  Not, we think, possible for Standard Gauge.

[TheQ]

ah missed that, must get some more sleep.....

[Shadow]

Maybe they're Shetland ponies and persons of small stature.

[sp1]

Maybe they're Shetland ponies and persons of small stature.

I'm not sure its politically correct to refer to persons of small stature - I think, with deference to Tom Sharpe, such individuals should now be referred to as P.O.R.Gs (persons of restricted growth)......

[Edwardian]

Maybe they're Shetland ponies and persons of small stature.

 

Ah, Shetlands.  The daughter regularly borrows a ride on a Shetland, or, as they are known in equestrian circles, in recognition of their amiable and co-operative natures, Shitlands.

 

Trouble is they tend to resemble Thelwell drawings, so a pair side by side might leave you no better off!

[Shadow]

Just found a new modern day version.

 

https://www.wired.com/2009/08/horse-power/

 

Edit to add second link

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/05/06/iranian-engineer-creates-1hp-bio-fuel-powered-hybrid/#slide-126460

Edited January 9, 2017 by Shadow

[Edwardian]

Just found a new modern day version.

 

https://www.wired.com/2009/08/horse-power/

 

Edit to add second link

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/05/06/iranian-engineer-creates-1hp-bio-fuel-powered-hybrid/#slide-126460

 

Impressive.

 

Though, thinking about it, as a mode of getting from A to B, you could just, well, get up on the horse?

[BG John]

Impressive.

 

Though, thinking about it, as a mode of getting from A to B, you could just, well, get up on the horse?

Great for a climate like Wales, where it saves the horse and rider getting soaked every time they go out!

[runs as required]

sorry to read that you have had to take to your bed....

However it does permit wayward visitors to your thread to lever open even more OT questions - such as:

 However, the precise orientation is awaiting the positioning of the parish church, and only then will I know in which direction north truly lies. 

How so?

How many places might we think of where the Church has compromised on Ecclesiatical North (or Liturgical East)?

 

In Valletta, Malta - a grid iron fortified city oriented NE/SW - all the Catholic churches, an Anglican cathedral and a Scottish Presbyterian church are obliged to compromise with a liturgical East that can never be Cardinal east.

 

Liverpool Anglican cathedral's altar is at the south end

 

dh

[Nearholmer]

Wow!

 

I do like that mad horse-electric car. Running the horse continuously at optimum rate, and using the battery to deal with peak loads certainly has potential, given that most cars spend most of their time standing still.

 

Wonder if it might be better to run the horse at night, at home, to charge the battery, rather than lug the blooming thing around, though ....... horses are quite heavy, aren't they?

 

6 horsepower.hours of charging would supply a daily commute of half-hour each way at an average of 6hp, which would actually be quite workable in urban traffic.

 

But, is a horse on a treadmill charging a battery the most efficient engine for converting grass into stored-energy in a useable form? Wouldn't a bio-digester (a sort of artificial horse-stomach), be able to achieve better?

 

K