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I see no-one has mentioned the proposed Oxford Rail pilchard wagon. A bit of a specialist traffic IMHO, unless you are modelling the lines up to London from Cornwall. Still, not as specialist as that other traffic which required special wagons: the tadpole trade. You would think that would come from East Anglia, but it was the GWR that provided the wagons. Or have I got this wrong?

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2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

That said, does the Parish agree with me that one would look well in West Norfolk green?

 

If there is support for this idea, I invite tenders for the design of a WNR match truck!

 

Possibly pushing it a bit for the WNR to have such an advanced and expensive piece of kit? Taking the M&GN as a point of reference, I can't find any mention of cranes in Digby's Guide but the Disused Stations entry for Norwich City has a couple of 1912 photos of a hand crane - probably 5 ton capacity. This sort of crane usually needed a pair of match wagons, fore and aft - one to support the jib, the other to accommodate the overhanging weight box. The match wagon in the photo - a simple flat with toolboxes - is presumably the tail wagon, the jib wagon having been moved out of the way. I would imagine that if a 15 ton crane was needed, Mr Marriott would have borrowed (hired) one from one of the parent companies. This 5 ton hand crane looks like ones the Midland had but from the design of the match wagon clearly isn't a Midland one.

 

If your directors do feel that a 15 ton crane is a luxury they can't afford to be without - foregoing a couple of second-hand locomotives - then I'm sure a private builder can be found to knock off a copy of the Midland design of match wagon.

 

 

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The interesting bit about that is the pair of iron bracket thingamabobs under the frame, which look as if they are there to carry girders, possibly for use as load-spreaders/out-riggers under the frame of the crane itself - they seem to be retained during transit by giant pins.

 

I reckon that the form would be to uncouple the match-wagon, slide the girders part-way out, then use the crane itself to lift them as close as possible to the desired positions, where timber cribs would already have been erected to take them. On that CS crane, you can see the sockets that the load-spreaders/outriggers would slide into.

 

Even now, cranes often carry loads of good-quality timber with them for load-spreading, and a 'classic' crane, especially one without built-in outriggers, would need to cart half a forest around with it, even for quite light/close lifts. there might also be jacks to go under the ends of the outriggers, but they may have preferred to use timber all the way, because if it is going to fail it gives warning and does so gracefully (then the crane falls over!).

 

 

 

 

Edited by Nearholmer
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36 minutes ago, webbcompound said:

I see no-one has mentioned the proposed Oxford Rail pilchard wagon. A bit of a specialist traffic IMHO, unless you are modelling the lines up to London from Cornwall. Still, not as specialist as that other traffic which required special wagons: the tadpole trade. You would think that would come from East Anglia, but it was the GWR that provided the wagons. Or have I got this wrong?

 

Going round in the usual CA loop, this takes us back to Stanhope Forbes, nephew of Watkin's nemesis and younger brother of the man who electrified the Brighton. As a member of the Newlyn School, he painted the odd pilchard:

 

image.png.772ff704e3d04cbfdd86d4c29cf49379.png

 

Wikimedia Commons.

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Looking at the GE van, from what has been said it is a 20th century beast which is a shame as I need a GE van to bring Suffolk, (Norfolk ?), barley for brewing to Traeth Mawr and at my current progress of building I will not get onto wagons for a very long time.

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If some enterprising manufacturer produced the Holden van, would that be close enough to the Great Western pre-Iron Mink wood Mink to kill two birds with one stone? Differences on a postcard, please...

Edited by Compound2632
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7 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

Looking at the GE van, from what has been said it is a 20th century beast which is a shame as I need a GE van to bring Suffolk, (Norfolk ?), barley for brewing to Traeth Mawr and at my current progress of building I will not get onto wagons for a very long time.

It is a design introduced in 1903, but revised in 1909/10, reducing the length from 19'3" to 19' (to standardise with the GN and GC standard van sizes, a consequence of closer working following the failed merger attempt). It is the design most likely to last wel into grouping, if not nationalisation.

So, although it won't help you, Chris, the wagon may or may not be suitable for Edwardian modellers, if the 1mm difference worries them.

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From memory (sizing up a possible conversion of the David Geen kit for the GW van) the Holden GE effort is a different length and has the bracing running the other way.   Too much work for a viable conversion in the end.

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I'd think the WNR would only have a hand crane.....

 

The Highland made do that way until a 15tonner became available at knocked down rate due to a failed order..

 

Andy g

edit:

The Mike Models do a cast kit for a MR type crane with a roll out counterbalance which is perfect for mounting on a home made chassis....

Edited by uax6
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6 minutes ago, Regularity said:

It is a design introduced in 1903, but revised in 1909/10, reducing the length from 19'3" to 19' (to standardise with the GN and GC standard van sizes, a consequence of closer working following the failed merger attempt). It is the design most likely to last wel into grouping, if not nationalisation.

So, although it won't help you, Chris, the wagon may or may not be suitable for Edwardian modellers, if the 1mm difference worries them.

 

Keep up Simon!

 

Interestingly, the D&S kit doesn't appear to distinguish between the two in the destruction sheet.

 

Mine comes up a little short!

 

19 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

Looking at the GE van, from what has been said it is a 20th century beast which is a shame as I need a GE van to bring Suffolk, (Norfolk ?), barley for brewing to Traeth Mawr and at my current progress of building I will not get onto wagons for a very long time.

 

15 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

If some enterprising manufacturer produced the Holden van, would that be close enough to the Great Western pre-Iron Mink wood Mink to kill two birds with one stone? Differences on a postcard, please...

 

I have not needed to make a close comparison, but I seem to recall there is a dimensional difference, though don't recall off-hand, I think the GER version is taller.

 

D&S made a kit, and Jonathan might know if one is obtainable.

 

Alternatively you could have a West Norfolk van!!!

 

 

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D&S made a kit, and Jonathan might know if one is obtainable.

 

Sadly that's one of the ones which went to the Black Hole of Poole and will almost certainly never reappear.

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It would have to be a van of 1895 vintage, so what was the WNR using then?

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8 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

It would have to be a van of 1895 vintage, so what was the WNR using then?

 

I have sketched out an outside framed covered wagon, so not too dissimilar from the GWR and GER examples under discussion.  I would do enough to make them distinct, of course, but very much in the same phase of evolution, though the WNR would probably have wooden underframes for wagons built to its designs c.1880-1895. 

 

Here is the GE one

 

857262556_GERHoldenVan02.jpg.1622a4dbaabd70a133640427e2cc1528.jpg

 

 

EDIT: When I build a WNR covered wagon, I'll do one for you, too, if you'd be prepared to run a fictional wagon.  That way, if you do gain a GER van in due course, you can alternate, putting the WNR one away when Serious Visitors come round.

 

BTW, the picture above shows post 1902 livery, so you want the small lettering.

Edited by Edwardian
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9 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

 

I have sketched out an outside framed covered wagon, so not too dissimilar from the GWR and GER examples under discussion.  I would do enough to make them distinct, of course, but very much in the same phase of evolution, though the WNR would probably have wooden underframes for wagons built to its designs c.1880-1895. 

 

Here is the GE one

 

857262556_GERHoldenVan02.jpg.1622a4dbaabd70a133640427e2cc1528.jpg

 

 

EDIT: When I build a WNR covered wagon, I'll do one for you, too, if you'd be prepared to run a fictional wagon.  That way, if you do gain a GER van in due course, you can alternate, putting the WNR one away when Serious Visitors come round.

 

BTW, the picture above shows post 1902 livery, so you want the small lettering.

 

Thank you, that would be brilliant!  I will be running a LBSCR train from Oak Hill, which although would have a slightly out of date saloon coach, has a fictitious family from a fictitious starting point so a fictitious wagon is well within bounds.

 

I have three Cambrian Saloon coaches, (Two Firsts and one Third), that are drawn and should be first on my Silhouette Cutter when I get some time.  I did wonder if you would want one.  I would supply all the parts.  I would not offer at the moment to make one for you as nothing is getting finished at the moment.

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17 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

 

Thank you, that would be brilliant!  I will be running a LBSCR train from Oak Hill, which although would have a slightly out of date saloon coach, has a fictitious family from a fictitious starting point so a fictitious wagon is well within bounds.

 

I have three Cambrian Saloon coaches, (Two Firsts and one Third), that are drawn and should be first on my Silhouette Cutter when I get some time.  I did wonder if you would want one.  I would supply all the parts.  I would not offer at the moment to make one for you as nothing is getting finished at the moment.

 

Why, most certainly, thanks, Chris. A visit from Cambrian cousins would always be welcome.  I expect a First suitable for a well-to-do family taking a longer journey would be best. 

 

I need to commission some WNR wagon transfers, so this is a good excuse to get on with that.

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How about a turnip or carrot as the illiteracy mark?

 

Andy G

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1 minute ago, uax6 said:

How about a turnip or carrot as the illiteracy mark?

 

 

As far as I'm aware the Great Eastern didn't actually use a swede. Given the patterns of East Anglian settlement, perhaps a Dane?

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But they were known as swedies....

 

Andy G

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3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

As far as I'm aware the Great Eastern didn't actually use a swede. Given the patterns of East Anglian settlement, perhaps a Dane?

Other breeds of dog are also available...

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1 minute ago, Regularity said:

Other breeds of dog are also available...

 

Our Chairman has been known to take an interest in Terriers. For myself, if forced, it would have to be a Scottie or Bulldog.

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Sugar Beet, it be only 13 mile from Castle Acre , a bit more on the Wissington light railway via KL..

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While you may choose to have malt from the eastern counties it need not be so. Warminster Maltings claim to be the oldest working maltings in the country producing since 1855. Slaisbury plain seems a likely growing area. However perhaps the most likely source for Treath Mawr might be from the Shropshire plain. Ditherington Flax Mill at Shrewsbury was converted to Malting in the late 1880s. It is currently being rescued as one of the first Iron framed buildings forerunner of skyscrappers. 

No doubt in early Victorian times there would have been a lot of local Maltings and Barley grown fairly locally before railways made it easier to move stuff around although ships may well have carried it to small ports.

 

Don

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10 minutes ago, Donw said:

While you may choose to have malt from the eastern counties it need not be so. Warminster Maltings claim to be the oldest working maltings in the country producing since 1855. Slaisbury plain seems a likely growing area. However perhaps the most likely source for Treath Mawr might be from the Shropshire plain. Ditherington Flax Mill at Shrewsbury was converted to Malting in the late 1880s. It is currently being rescued as one of the first Iron framed buildings forerunner of skyscrappers. 

No doubt in early Victorian times there would have been a lot of local Maltings and Barley grown fairly locally before railways made it easier to move stuff around although ships may well have carried it to small ports.

 

Don

But the army started taking over Salisbury plain from 1898 now owning 150Square miles of it..

Edited by TheQ
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42 minutes ago, Donw said:

While you may choose to have malt from the eastern counties it need not be so. Warminster Maltings claim to be the oldest working maltings in the country producing since 1855. Slaisbury plain seems a likely growing area. However perhaps the most likely source for Treath Mawr might be from the Shropshire plain. Ditherington Flax Mill at Shrewsbury was converted to Malting in the late 1880s. It is currently being rescued as one of the first Iron framed buildings forerunner of skyscrappers. 

No doubt in early Victorian times there would have been a lot of local Maltings and Barley grown fairly locally before railways made it easier to move stuff around although ships may well have carried it to small ports.

 

Don

 

Flagrant touting for trade there, Don

 

37 minutes ago, TheQ said:

But the army started taking over Salisbury plain from 1898 now owning 150Square miles of it..

 

Perhaps shrapnel adds body to the brew. 

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