Porcy Mane Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) All, there's being a number of conversations in other peoples threads about various aspects of Cemflos over the last few months eg, http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/17155-greyscroft-mine-cleveland-ironstone-in-1955-em-gauge/page-19&do=findComment&comment=2010286 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/72373-rumney-models/page-3&do=findComment&comment=2021286 So rather than continue to hijack those threads, I thought I'd start a new one. The main driver behind this is three colour photographs that has recently appeared on Flickr of the down Cliffe-Uddingston Cemflos passing on the freight lines behind Newcastle Central. Beside the train being hauled by a Peak as opposed to the more normal class 40 there is all sorts of other interesting content in the photos. The Western Region Brake and buffer ride heights for instance. Looks like the photographs were taken in June1965. Here you go. What do you think? Mike I hope you have medical assistance and plenty of tissues nearby? Cliffe -Uddingston Cement trains by Tony Lambert, on Flickr[/url]Cliffe -Uddingston Cement trains by Tony Lambert, on Flickr The Front Brake Van. BR 20Ton Brake Van by Tony Lambert, on Flickr[/url]BR 20Ton Brake Van by Tony Lambert, on Flickr I suppose now that I've written that up somebody will tell me they are already being discussed elsewhere. P Edited May 6, 2016 by Porcy Mane 12 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrushVeteran Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Are there any drawings available for these anywhere. I have searched but not come up with anything yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 All, there's being a number of conversations in other peoples threads about various aspects of Cemflos over the last few months eg, http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/17155-greyscroft-mine-cleveland-ironstone-in-1955-em-gauge/page-19&do=findComment&comment=2010286 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/72373-rumney-models/page-3&do=findComment&comment=2021286 So rather than continue to hijack those threads, I thought I'd start a new one. The main driver behind this is three colour photographs that has recently appeared on Flickr of the down Cliffe-Uddingston Cemflos passing on the freight lines behind Newcastle Central. Beside the train being hauled by a Peak as opposed to the more normal class 40 there is all sorts of other interesting content in the photos. The Western Region Brake and buffer ride heights for instance. Looks like the photographs were taken in June1965. Here you go. What do you think? Mike I hope you have medical assistance and plenty of tissues nearby? Cliffe -Uddingston Cement trains; Hopper Cemflo by Tony Lambert, on Flickr Cliffe -Uddingston Cement trains by Tony Lambert, on Flickr The Front Brake Van. BR 20Ton Brake Van by Tony Lambert, on Flickr I suppose now that I've written that up somebody will tell me they are already being discussed elsewhere. P My observations :- upper photo - to my eye - definitely blue on yellow for the long panel; LA 277 - quite possibly all subsidiary lettering in black; though the background to the commuted charge CC and star appears to be blue as opposed to the black of the NON POOL panel; straight discharge pipes on the later LA 277, together with revised suspension and solebar strengthening plates; the 1/507 brakevan B955229 appears, in later life, in PB's photo archive. I am sure there are many other things to note - but that'll do for now. Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) .... Are there any drawings available for these anywhere. I have searched but not come up with anything yet. ....the basic Rolling Stock Library outline diagram should be available on the Barrowmore MRG site. Have a look at page 53. Remember it is always better to cross check dimensions shown on these diagrams where possible..... http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/BRPOWagons1Issue.pdf I have a 1964 Eastern Region Freight Trains Load Book of the type issued to guards at this time. Special mention has been written into the spaces under class 4 trains of the Cliffe to Uddingston working of these wagons..."brake at each end, roller bearing, 32 light alloy wagons via Ferme Park, D15/6 loco (1550 HP class 3 loco)". Class 4 trains running at 55mph had to have a minimum 90% of the wagons fully braked....brake vans had to be fully fitted or piped & gauged only and must have a wheelbase of 15ft or more. I last worked a rake of these from Ditton (ex Widnes) back to Earles sdgs via Weaver jcn & Northwich in the mid eighties driving 45034 when secondmanning Dennis Morton of Buxton shed. 50 mph 'vacuum passenger' braking/brake rate selector position. Have a picture somewhere taken in Ditton yard....I'll look it out...picture found but it was of the engineers trip which took us to Ditton from Guide Bridge and doesn't show the cement tanks. The rake of Cemflos just happened to be stabled there and we volunteered to take them back to Earles....not a regular sight though via Northwich as they used to run via Lymm in the booked working. Here is one that I took at Chinley at a similar time https://www.flickr.com/photos/43564631@N08/4569699681/in/album-72157622730543368/ Dave Edited February 4, 2016 by Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 .... ....the basic Rolling Stock Library outline diagram should be available on the Barrowmore MRG site. Dave Try http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/Prototype.html , then look for Diagrams of PO Wagons Volume 1, and scroll through to PC001A. Bear in mind that this is a Weight Diagram, and is simply an outline sketch with some leading dimensions given. It is possible to create a reasonable scale drawing using these, and a selection of photos, as a starting point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrushVeteran Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Try http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/Prototype.html , then look for Diagrams of PO Wagons Volume 1, and scroll through to PC001A. Bear in mind that this is a Weight Diagram, and is simply an outline sketch with some leading dimensions given. It is possible to create a reasonable scale drawing using these, and a selection of photos, as a starting point. .... ....the basic Rolling Stock Library outline diagram should be available on the Barrowmore MRG site. Have a look at page 53. Remember it is always better to cross check dimensions shown on these diagrams where possible..... http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/BRPOWagons1Issue.pdf Dave Thanks Dave and Brian its a good start anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davefrk Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Now that Paul has a serious thread started how long till we all go seriously off topic.... I like the torpedo vents on the guards van Paul, they look just like the low profile ones I've just done. LOL Dave Franks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Does that brake van with all the WR writing also say "return to Ashford Works" in the centre? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 ....yes. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
durham light infantry Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Now that Paul has a serious thread started how long till we all go seriously off topic.... Dave Franks. My moneys is on Paul's fixation with lamp posts... Mike 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) Yes it does. Considering how few colour photos there are of rolling stock in the 1960s fascinating that this brake van managed to be recorded twice and at such distances apart! http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brbrakediag507/eca654ab Back on topic, my Cemflos are at http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/cemflo A copy of the diagram is at the end, although issued for a specialist suspension. Paul Edited January 31, 2016 by hmrspaul 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold stovepipe Posted January 31, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 31, 2016 One of David F's photos of the same working: https://flic.kr/p/aZfQyR And a crash scene, but not Thirsk. https://flic.kr/p/beu9UK Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesysmith Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Notice the two different suspensions used in the same train in virtually identical wagons. The first has aux rubber suspension and the original solebar, the other has continental style/uic long link suspension with the late solebar re-enforcement. Did these variations mix, or did the solebar change at the same time as the suspension? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 ....the Thirsk derailment was a trigger point for the revised suspension. The whole fleet was grounded for a while. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davefrk Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 And a crash scene, but not Thirsk. https://flic.kr/p/beu9UK The crash scene is at Uddingston at the junction for the Bellshill line south east of Glasgow, only about a mile away from the Bluecircle depot. And the off topic fact is, that my local model shop is only a hundred yards from the scene, mostly aircraft and R/C cars though and also not forgetting the Tunnocks factory nearby too. Dave Franks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Yes it does. Considering how few colour photos there are of rolling stock in the 1960s fascinating that this brake van managed to be recorded twice and at such distances apart! http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brbrakediag507/eca654ab Back on topic, my Cemflos are at http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/cemflo A copy of the diagram is at the end, although issued for a specialist suspension. Paul The numerically subsequent 1/507 B955230 was also a PADDINGTON RU :- (If anyone claims copyright of the above photos, and objects to them being posted here, I'll remove them). Regards, John Isherwood. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimbus Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Smashing photos! The first one is of a Gloucester built vehicle. The more you look, the more variations you come across in the GRCW solebar stiffeners. The works photo of the first-built shows none, other photos show a pair of rectangular plates, this one shows a pair of winged plates, while what I previously thought standard is a single long plate pierced by two elliptical holes. I wish I could find a scaleable broadside view of one of those! Anyone got views on whether these plates are inset flush with the solebar flanges, or welded to the outside tip of the flanges? The latter would be easier, needing only fillet welds. The second shot is of a Metro-Cammell built vehicle with its single long plate stiffener pierced by a series of circular holes. The suspension was revised to a UIC pattern for the M-C builds, and it was wear in the links, associated with the abrasive loads, that was identified in the accident report as the root cause of the 1967 derailment. The Nim. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted January 31, 2016 Author Share Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) ....the Thirsk derailment was a trigger point for the revised suspension. The whole fleet was grounded for a while. Dave Smashing photos! The more you look, the more variations you come across in the GRCW solebar stiffeners. The works photo of the first-built shows none, other photos show a pair of rectangular plates, this one shows a pair of winged plates, while what I previously thought standard is a single long plate pierced by two elliptical holes. The second shot is of a Metro-Cammell built vehicle with its single long plate stiffener pierced by a series of circular holes. The suspension was revised to a UIC pattern for the M-C builds, and it was wear in the links, associated with the abrasive loads, that was identified in the accident report as the root cause of the 1967 derailment. I think the poor ride qualities of these wagons were well known by manufacturers and BR from day one. I can't remember the source but I have read about the alloy underfame twisting on the Gloucesters and that lead to the gusseting of the solebars and the subsequent adoption of UIC double link on the Met cams. With the Thirsk derailment (the last in a series with cemflos) involving unfortunate fatalities and with all the subsequent press coverage that heightened public awareness, that led to a polarisation in trying to find a solution. The solution was eventually the design of a new wagon type. This pic from the LNER forum shows the gusseting on Gloucesters: http://lner-encyclopedia.com/forums/download/file.php?id=2113&sid=5ee5062db099fbb6848690a0963c8aad&mode=view and there are these excellent images. Apologies if you have seen them already. http://lner-encyclopedia.com/forums/download/file.php?id=2112&sid=5ee5062db099fbb6848690a0963c8aad&mode=view http://lner-encyclopedia.com/forums/download/file.php?id=2114&sid=5ee5062db099fbb6848690a0963c8aad&mode=view http://lner-encyclopedia.com/forums/download/file.php?id=2118&sid=5ee5062db099fbb6848690a0963c8aad&mode=view P Edit Just to say that APCM had started using Depressed Centre V tanks prior to Thirsk. Edited February 12, 2017 by Porcy Mane 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted January 31, 2016 Author Share Posted January 31, 2016 Are there any drawings available for these anywhere. I have searched but not come up with anything yet. Maybe this will be a start: Met-Cam P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted January 31, 2016 Author Share Posted January 31, 2016 Now that Paul has a serious thread started how long till we all go seriously off topic.... I like the torpedo vents on the guards van Paul, they look just like the low profile ones I've just done. LOL I'll allow you to get away with that thinly veiled attempt at subliminal marketing just because, 1) Dia. 1/507 Brake vans were an integral part of the Cliffe Uddingston ECML traffic, 2) The trains destination was in your locale and the product it carried allowed the building of a better Scotland, 3) Your'e a canny Scott with direct North East lineage, 4) You may consider casting a white metal line of heritage cast iron & concrete 4mm lamposts, 5) I constantly drag your threads off topic, 6) You've offered to take the team out for an Indian! My moneys is on Paul's fixation with lamp posts... How dare you suggest I have a fixation on street furniture, fixtures and fittings. Present you evidence. (In another thread if you please). BTW. I once photographed these two curvaceous beauties. If it wasn't for the building of your kitchen the nearer of these two absolute stunners, might still survive! Tenuously on topic, as these lamposts were daily threaded by successions of Conlat L's, Covhops, Presflos and probably the odd singleton Cemflo. AARGhhhhhhh! I'm off again. Note to self, Write out 1000 times, "I must not drag my own topic, off topic". P 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrushVeteran Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Maybe this will be a start: Met-Cam CemfloUICsuspensionMKIIMods.jpg P Thanks G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 The numerically subsequent 1/507 B955230 was also a PADDINGTON RU :- (If anyone claims copyright of the above photos, and objects to them being posted here, I'll remove them). Regards, John Isherwood. There was a batch of these vans which had such writing. Some more are given in Gent E (1999) British Railways Brake vans and ballast ploughs. Pub. By HMRS 92pp. ISBN 0 – 902835 – 16 –5. Here is another http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brbrakediag507/e1ca69721 Paul 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium New Haven Neil Posted January 31, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 31, 2016 Small world. The poster of the photos is a good mate of mine. He and two other pals, both now sadly gone, were on the train following the one hauled by DP2 before it hit the cemflows - they were meant to BE on that train, but missed it. They would have been in the first coach hanging out of the windows.....close call. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted January 31, 2016 Author Share Posted January 31, 2016 The poster of the photos is a good mate of mine. Tell him what a smashing job he did when taking them. Thank him for posting them up. The sight of them made me go all of a quiver. P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted January 31, 2016 Author Share Posted January 31, 2016 They could certainly get dirty. Sandy.D6575 with UP Cement. by CBSNAPS, on Flickr P 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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