Penlan Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 (edited) Nothing to do with livestock, though 'tis to do with bugs (or lack of).'Scottish First Potatoes' were very much sought after for planting elsewhere, especially south of the border (possibly even down Mexico Way?), as they were deemed bug free due to the Scottish harsh winters. So more Scottish Wagons or Vans loaded up with potatoes and travelling to far distant places.I seem to recall reading somewhere they were keenly sought after in the America's, which is ironic as I understand they originally came from there. Can I refer you to this topic http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/74171-welcome-to-pre-grouping/page-2 Post #47 near the bottom of the page, where I've posted a copy of a RCH Census for Bristol in 1920.To get to the nub of things for Scottish Company Vehicles in BRISTOL (W = Wagons, V = Vans) we have :-Cal. 67 W, 15 V.G&SW 19 W, 3 V. GNofS 7 W, 2 V. High. 3 W. 0 V. NBritish 79 W, 13 V.All Cattle Wagons on the Survey are GWR.There were no M&GN vehicles present. Edited February 15, 2016 by Penlan 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pod909 Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Based on dads small holding and livestock family history, and my wifes family history in Ireland... This covers sheep but something similar seems to hold true for highland cattle breeding. Pigs I know nothing about, other than access to feed would seem to be a primary issue. Primary breading of livestock for slaughter takes place in parts of the countryside economically unsuitable for arable farming. Cattle breading requires sustained grass growth, while sheep production can take place in upland areas unsuitable for large scale beaf production. Upland farmers grade their lambs in the autumn. Only a small number of the best males are kept for breading, the rest are sold in the autumn for lowland fattening and slaughter. Of the females 2/3 of the stock will be kept for breading, the other 1/3rd or will be sold to other farmers for flock development or to lowland farmers for interbreeding or fattening. 1/3 of the breeding stock (those that have reached 3-4 years of age) is also sold for slaughter as mutton. For upland stock you're looking at 110-120% production, 50/50 male and female. The traffic generated would be large, but highly seasonal (autumnal). For 100 breading yews on the hill, come the autumn; 70-80 lambs are heading to lowland farms, 30-35 yews are heading direct end point markets as mutton. The stock required for upland breading are small and hardy (and taisty). To get a large but tasty animal for slaughter hill breed yews will be bread with "fat lamb" lowland rams to produce a hybrid animal for slaughter. So if your prototype is lowland then you would see a heavy traffic in the autumn with highland stock being received against a back drop of gradual shipment of fattened animals to slaughter in the areas of high demand. Upland market towns would see incoming stock from the local areas and local markets for the sales and their shipment onwards having been sold. In lowland areas the flock is split up with farms and small holdings taking on what stock they could to fatten and then sell to butchers and back to the dealers. The local fattening of cattle on small holdings before sale for slaughter seems to be a distinct feature of rural Irish life. So if wagons are liveried then I'm guessing that they would be the dealers in highland stock transporting them to lowland areas for fattening and butchers buying highland mutton and lowland fattened slaughter stock. I'd suggest that beards where be highly localized, so you wouldn't see much movement of bread animals but for a few big dealers. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted February 15, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 15, 2016 As to small movements, Long Preston used to receive 2 wagons of scottish cattle from Dingwall on a regular basis. These would be attached to the rear of the last stopping pasenger train from Carlisle, then shunted into the cattle dock at Long Preston. According to a retired sugnalman this was done with the passengers still on the train. That sounds like a useful detail for my S&C layout, what period are we talking about? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted February 15, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 15, 2016 The railways also moved complete farms. Well not the buildings or land, obviously, but all the animals, machinery and other belongings of tenant farmers. This would be done as a complete chartered train with very mixed stock including a carriage for the family to travel in. A very charming BTF film on the subject. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted February 15, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 15, 2016 That sounds like a useful detail for my S&C layout, what period are we talking about?The signalman was working there in the 50's but the traffic had run a lot longer. I mentioned it to David Jenkinson and we dug through the sectional appendix and found a rule that allowed up to two vehicles on passenger trains if they were fully braked, carried as tail traffic, or 3 unbraked ones with a brake van. At Log Preston the train had to be belled out of section past the starter towards Hellifield, then the ground frame that controlled the entrance to the Cattle dock was unlocked from the box, and a porter operated the points from the ground frame and the whole train, with passengers on reversed into the cattle dock to deposit the vans. Apparently on the right market day thy could have over 40 cattle trucks there with a loco acting as station pilot and cattle wagons in every siding. The old signalman was Derek Soames whose son I went to school with. Jamie 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caley Jim Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Countryfile this evening says the Stirling Cattle sales where the biggest in the UK, in the past and now. Mainly for the Shorthorns and Aberdeen Angus Bull's for breeding - and exported all over the world....... But whose cattle wagons were used I don't know.(in the UK). The reply on the CRA forum was as follows: I think you will find that the animals sold at the Perth Bull Sales ( the Stirling sales are a fairly recent innovation) were of such value that they would be transported in horse boxes or special cattle trucks of a similar style and comfort. The HR at least had two vehicles described as "Prize Cattle Vans". Ordinary beasts would be transported in normal cattle trucks and I guess that they would be either NBR or CR depending on destination or the preference of the consignee. So perhaps Stirling didn't figure in pre-group days. Jim 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caley Jim Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 ....... 'Scottish First Potatoes' were very much sought after for planting elsewhere, especially south of the border (possibly even down Mexico Way?), as they were deemed bug free due to the Scottish harsh winters. So more Scottish Wagons or Vans loaded up with potatoes and travelling to far distant places...... Much of this traffic came from Strathearn, around Crieff was a big seed potatoe growing area, hence the preponderance of CR vehicles. Details can be found in 'Branchlines of Strathearn' by John Young. Jim 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted February 15, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 15, 2016 The reply on the CRA forum was as follows: I think you will find that the animals sold at the Perth Bull Sales ( the Stirling sales are a fairly recent innovation) were of such value that they would be transported in horse boxes or special cattle trucks of a similar style and comfort. The HR at least had two vehicles described as "Prize Cattle Vans". Ordinary beasts would be transported in normal cattle trucks and I guess that they would be either NBR or CR depending on destination or the preference of the consignee.[/size] So perhaps Stirling didn't figure in pre-group days. Jim The Midland also had 'Prize Cattle vans' to my knowledge, I don't know about any other companies. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caley Jim Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 The Caley had two types of prize cattle wagon - Diagram 40 (2 off) and Diagram 70 (4 off). Diagram 70 had a groom's compartment. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Holliday Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 I think most railway companies had prize cattle vans, albeit in small numbers. Those on the LBSCR came as two slightly different concepts. Some were up-market normal cattle vans, with improved running gear and the normally open areas fitted with louvres, others were down-market horse boxes. Liveries and classification varied from time to time, sometimes they were considered goods stock, at others NPCC. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted February 19, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 19, 2016 Following my post a while ago when I mentioned the Kerry sales, Tanatvalley has sent me some extracts from the relevant WTTs. I was wrong. All the cattle wagons arrived empty. Quite where all the sheep came from I can't imagine as much of the Kerry ridge was forest - hence the Kerry Tramway. And the sales weren't monthly but twice in the autumn. Anyway to make up for misinformation I have dug out the details of GWR common user changes for cattle wagons (Atkins et al Vol 1 Table 4) All companies except GWR cattle wagons common user 11/8/25 GWR cattle wagons added 31/5/27 GWR cattle wagons withdrawn 31/12/27 Cattle wagons fitted with automatic brake withdrawn 1/9/33 All cattle wagons not already common user became so 5/9/39 So for the greatest variety set your period in the autumn of 1927 or after the start of the Second World War. I'll have to check that none of my "foreign" cattle wagons are fitted. Jonathan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted February 21, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 21, 2016 Has anyone built a model of a cattle wagon with vertical iron rods in place of the bottom couple of slats, as per the Rhymney ones and a few other companies including the B&M, for which there is an HMRS drawing (HMRS 64) and photograph (ACR019) and a drawing in one of the wagons books? I am struggling to know how to make the sides strong enough in plasticard and the rods rigid enough to stay properly straight. Jonathan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Holliday Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 D&S used to do the L&YR cattle wagon which had vertical bars. They did an etching for the rods, altough it wasn't quite the correct length. This kit was available from 51L Models, but doesn't appear on their website at the moment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 D&S used to do the L&YR cattle wagon which had vertical bars. They did an etching for the rods, altough it wasn't quite the correct length. This kit was available from 51L Models, but doesn't appear on their website at the moment. I did it like this too on an LNWR van in 2mm scale. In fact I made an etched box that folded up that had the bars at the bottom and the planking for the sides and ends. Over the box a 3D printed framing overlay was glued. It worked quite well though I'd forgot to take off the material thickness from the width of the etched floor so the sides needed some trimming! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted February 23, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 23, 2016 I'll have to check that none of my "foreign" cattle wagons are fitted. Jonathan Why? If any fitted cattle wagons were 'filled' off the destination railway, then they would be sent with load, wherever was the destination. Once there, the railway at the destination could do one of two things, once emptied. 1/ Return empty to the owning railway if there was no return load. 2/ Return 'filled' with cattle, if there was another destination on the OWNING company. A wagon being non common user didn't restrict where a loaded wagon was sent to, it just meant that such wagon weren't 'hung on to' by other railways. At least that's my understanding of the non-common user fleet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted February 28, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 28, 2016 Thanks for the suggestions on cattle wagon construction. I sourced some suitable fairly stiff wire - it is not much thicker than 5 amp fuse wire, and was thinking of a sandwich, but your suggestions sound better. I'll report back (probably in a few years!) For either etching or 3D printing the vertical rods must be pretty fragile.O am I just clumsy? And in 2mm - the mind boggles. I am not sure I could see the rods anyway. Jonathan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Holliday Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 I'd be inclined to investigate the Scalelink range of etchings. Their 2mm mini-fret MINI07 has lengths of railings. Although the spacing may not be quite right, I think the uniformity of spacing would be the most important factor, combined with straightness. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 Thanks for the suggestions on cattle wagon construction. I sourced some suitable fairly stiff wire - it is not much thicker than 5 amp fuse wire, and was thinking of a sandwich, but your suggestions sound better. I'll report back (probably in a few years!) For either etching or 3D printing the vertical rods must be pretty fragile.O am I just clumsy? And in 2mm - the mind boggles. I am not sure I could see the rods anyway. Jonathan Sadly I don't think I photographed the model, but I still have the artwork: If there is interest in the method I could include a handful of frets of various heights of such grids in a strip you could just cut to length on my next order? 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Burnham Posted November 22, 2020 Share Posted November 22, 2020 Reviving the cattle wagon question, an article by Brian Janes in the Autumn 2020 issue of "The Colonel" (Colonel Stephens Society bulletin) mentions the 1935 revival of the Biddenden (Kent) Cattle Fair. The Kent & East Sussex Railway station received 90 empty cattle wagons from Headcorn Junction - 42 LMS, 24 LNER and 24 Southern - which had to be loaded and despatched. "The wagons left for destinations that bore no apparent regard to the ownership of the individual wagon. Southern wagons were dispatched to Lavenham, essex, and Diss, Suffolk, and LNER wagons to Sandwich, Kent. Sixty wagons were destined for Kent stations, mostly east and north, but one to only four stations away, Paddock Wood. The remainder were more widely travelled; Rugby, Rainham (Essex), Reading, Bracknell, Chelmsford, Peterborough and Tempsford being representative sample destinations. Perhaps the most interesting was 'Waddesdon Manor' (actually 'Waddesdon') on the Metropolitan's distant Brill branch. Perchance it was the last wagon to arrive there for that line was to close for ever a mere 24 days later." The K&ESR did have a couple of cattle wagons of their own, but they were not used for through traffic to or from the main line, and were pretty decrepit by the 1930s. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted November 25, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 25, 2020 On 22/11/2020 at 23:19, Tom Burnham said: The wagons left for destinations that bore no apparent regard to the ownership of the individual wagon. There's no reason why they should, as the cattle wagons of the three companies had been pooled since August 1925. Note the absence of GWR vehicles - that company having declined to cooperate. On 22/11/2020 at 23:19, Tom Burnham said: The K&ESR did have a couple of cattle wagons of their own, but they were not used for through traffic to or from the main line, and were pretty decrepit by the 1930s. I would suppose that internal K&ESR wagons, in common with those of other such lines, were not registered for running on the main lines, or that the K&ESR (ditto) was not party to the relevant RCH agreements. I don't fully understand tthe ins and outs of this so would be glad of an explanation from one who knows. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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