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Protocab article


davetheroad

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There is a 2 page article on Protocab in the March issue of Railway Modeller. I think it is not clear on how many locomotives you can have running at the same time, maybe the Protocab people would clarify the issue?

 

The front page title is interesting 'no more wires' and for me this is a real plus. My layout has never had any wires and i have remodelled the fiddle yard, added 2 stabling roads to the shed, converted the branch to a full roundy-roundy and added a trailing crossover to the main lines, all without any crawling about under the baseboards!. This summer i plan to remodel the fiddle yard again to improve operational flexibiity.

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  • 2 weeks later...

There is a 2 page article on Protocab in the March issue of Railway Modeller. I think it is not clear on how many locomotives you can have running at the same time, maybe the Protocab people would clarify the issue?

 

The front page title is interesting 'no more wires' and for me this is a real plus. My layout has never had any wires and i have remodelled the fiddle yard, added 2 stabling roads to the shed, converted the branch to a full roundy-roundy and added a trailing crossover to the main lines, all without any crawling about under the baseboards!. This summer i plan to remodel the fiddle yard again to improve operational flexibiity.

 

The key to being able to run lots of locomotives at the same time is the yet to be released "concentrator". I quote from their website:-

 

The Protocab Concentrator will enable several controllers and LCUs to be operated at the same time. It acts as a multiplexer for all messages passing throughout the domain and provides the control of the domain, including the adoption of assets. The Concentrator will also extend the network capability by providing access for different transmission standards, including Wi-Fi. This means that users who want to get the benefits of using smartphones or tablet PCs as controllers can access the same LCUs as the operator with a simple handheld controller. The Concentrator will provide automatic protocol conversion between, e.g. Wi-Fi and the network standard used by the LCU.

 

To be fair the product is still at an early stage - whilst the basic units are now available, there's a lot more in development which will be rolled out in time. One thing which was NOT made clear in the article (and in fact I wrote to the Modeller to point it out) is that you can run a radio controlled loco on any layout - Analogue or DCC. You can therefore put your toe in the water with just one loco to begin with.

 

I'm waiting for the components to reach the size where they will fit in a OO tank locomotive (an LBSCR  Terrier or an LSWR O2).

 

The Company have told me they are considering crowd-funding for future developments, and I would be perfectly prepared to start using it on the basis of  a single loco initially and expanding and replacing progressively until the whole layout is radio-controlled. I am convinced it's the way of the future!

 

You should join "Club Protocab" and you will get occasional newsletters.

 

 

Chris

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There is a 2 page article on Protocab in the March issue of Railway Modeller. I think it is not clear on how many locomotives you can have running at the same time, maybe the Protocab people would clarify the issue?

 

The front page title is interesting 'no more wires' and for me this is a real plus. My layout has never had any wires and i have remodelled the fiddle yard, added 2 stabling roads to the shed, converted the branch to a full roundy-roundy and added a trailing crossover to the main lines, all without any crawling about under the baseboards!. This summer i plan to remodel the fiddle yard again to improve operational flexibiity.

Reading the article thoroughly it appears that each controller can control 9 locos, one at a time. There's no limit seemingly on the number of controllers used simultaneously, but each loco is uniquely coupled to a controller. You could have 100 locos but to run them all simultaneously would need 100 controllers. The concentrator will free this up, but the article was not specific as to how free it will be or indeed the maximum number of locos running simultaneously, though it did refer to being able to run more than one loco at a time from one controller.

 

Perhaps Tony Hagon will find this thread and give us the gen.?

 

Chris

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Just curious, regarding the one feature question, regarding simultaneous running of multiple locos all at once. Other than at a exhibition, a club layout or someone with a good sized home layout, how many modellers would want of need to be able to run more that a couple of locos at the same time? And how many who are operating a small to modest size home layout would need or want the same?

 

For someone like myself, who will be running my planned small to mid sized layout solo, it's not a issue, and I suspect it would not be for many others, either. But not having to wire a layout is definitely a winning feature for me. Been there, done that, understand what all needs to be wired, but my least favorite layout task.

 

On another thread, someone tut-tutted that it would not be popular because folks would be upste when they went to play with their trains, and the battery was dead, and needed a re-charge first. really? Users would not get into the habit of either putting the unit into deep sleep, or plugging it in at the end of a operating session? If folks were incapable of learning to do things like that, cell phones and such would never have caught on.

 

Jim

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I must admit to being more than a bit interested in the concept.  First I see it as the way of the future.  Secondly it will let me run a couple of independent locos on my DC system, for example a station pilot adding a waggon to the back of a passenger train, without the need to convert my entire system to DCC. 

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I have the Deltang system which works well and is an elegant piece of kit  chugging across the floor with no rails .So far I have used it in a  Finecast J69 and a Kato motored  Athearn CF7 using a 7.4 volt battery .I havnt taken it much further as frankly on a switching layout using 8 wheel flywheel equipped Yank tanks its pointless as  they work across dead frogs  perfectly and I also have sound DCC.Its the future but probably not as it is now .The Standon system if I have the name right covers it all it seems at a price .I came across a minute 3.7 lipo the other day but no idea if it would be any good for trains but it must power something .it did make me wonder whether it could be used as a power pack to be removed to be charged and another slotted in .a lot of potential out there not explored yet .

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I use the Deltang equipment too. You can run up to 12 locos at once from a single transmitter, enough for most people I would have thought. The receivers are very small, the transmitters look like normal loco controllers not aircraft ones, and the whole system is relatively inexpensive, about £40 to kit out each loco plus £60 for a 12 loco transmitter and you can get a charger from less than £10.

 

Frank

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just trying to work out why anyone would want to control 12 locos at the same time.  unless you run US outline trains around a scale mile long with helpers cut in down the length.

 

What should be fun is trying to get a double headed train away on a gradient with two people trying to co ordinate their efforts, or a banker pushing and dropping off, so maybe initially a couple of RTR models which habitually did pilot work or banking, like small panniers, or GWR large Praires,  Br Std 4-6-0s, Manors, Midland 2 P and various 0-6-0s sold with protocab equipment might kick start interest in that they could be used on any layout, DCC DC anything.

 

Operating 12 locos simultaneously on a series of continuous runs should probably be left to professional tourist attraction layouts.

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I know the definition of simultaneously does not fit my system but in a manner of speaking it can be applied.  I run18 trains running at correct speeds in an automated sequence such that I can walk away and they will run.  Said system involved a fair bit of circuitry.  From what I have read I could do something similar using the photo-cab system with no wiring issues.

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I know the definition of simultaneously does not fit my system but in a manner of speaking it can be applied.  I run18 trains running at correct speeds in an automated sequence such that I can walk away and they will run.  Said system involved a fair bit of circuitry.  From what I have read I could do something similar using the photo-cab system with no wiring issues.

Not sure about Protocab, but you could do it with the DelTang system, the inputs to the transmitter modules are just DC voltages both to control speed and direction of the loco and also to select the loco whose speed is to be changed. The voltages could be generated by a PIC or Arduino or similar easily enough I would think.

 

Frank

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  • 2 weeks later...

Let me clarify my original post. My Deltang 12 loco transmitters can each control up to 12 different locos at the same time. My layout is a continouous run with up and down main lines and a branch plus small goods yard and loco shed. I can have a loco on the up main and switch to a loco running on the down main etc and have the loco on the up main continuing to do what it was last instructed to do. Simply switching the transmitter to a different loco leaves the previous loco doing the last thing it was told to do!. so on my layout i can have locos on the main and branch times running at different speeds at the same time as doing some shunting in the yard. Just like DCC!. Can the Protocab system do this or will a loco stop if another loco is selected on the transmitter?

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I used the Deltang system for BPR/C in N-Gauge locos.

 

I am now experimenting with el-cheapo BPR/C in 00 gauge using an Atmega 328 (£3.50), an nRF24L01+ transceiver (£2) and a Pololu DRV8834 motor controller (£4), low voltage motor (£1.50) and 240mAh LiPo (£1) - total about £12.

 

It all fits nicely into a Bachmann GWR prairie. There is plenty of room for a second battery.

 

...R

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I used the Deltang system for BPR/C in N-Gauge locos.

 

I am now experimenting with el-cheapo BPR/C in 00 gauge using an Atmega 328 (£3.50), an nRF24L01+ transceiver (£2) and a Pololu DRV8834 motor controller (£4), low voltage motor (£1.50) and 240mAh LiPo (£1) - total about £12.

 

It all fits nicely into a Bachmann GWR prairie. There is plenty of room for a second battery.

 

...R

I checked those out, certainly for the technical expert!

 

Where do you fit all the stuff in a Bachmann Prairie? I have though about converting some of their tanks but arn't the side tanks themselves full of metal?

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I've just started converting a Bachmann Ivatt prarie, the split chassis one. Yes the tanks are full of metal, I am going to cut out some of the metal to put the batteries in the tanks, carefully as some of it keeps the motor in place. It will reduce the weight, but since most of the weight is needed for electrical contact with the track, I don't think this will be a problem.

 

Frank

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 arn't the side tanks themselves full of metal?

Not any longer :)

 

Actually the main reason I cut away that metal was to make space for the motor I am using.

 

The Atmega 328 and the nRF24 fit inside the front of the boiler. The motor controller is in the side tank and the battery is in the coal hopper.

 

...R

post-10065-0-67992100-1459345688.jpg

post-10065-0-43361300-1459345705.jpg

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Not any longer :)

 

Actually the main reason I cut away that metal was to make space for the motor I am using.

 

The Atmega 328 and the nRF24 fit inside the front of the boiler. The motor controller is in the side tank and the battery is in the coal hopper.

 

...R

How big are those electronics robin?

 

i have 2 conversion projects I have yet to start, a simple Hornby RailRoad Jinty which are cheap secon hand and a Hornby 2-6-4 tank. i normally remove the batteries for recharging but in those cases might add the circuitry to allow onboard charging.

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I had hoped the Atmega 328 would be sufficient to provide scale - it is the long chip with the legs folded over. The width of the plastic part is 7.3mm. The nRF24 module is 15x28mm.

 

I just use 1 LiPo to power the loco and, for now, I have just brought a pair of wires out of the cab (one one on each side) for connecting a charger to. The vague plan is to have the ability to drive the loco into a charging point. I have deliberately removed the wheel pickups - partly to reduce friction and partly so I can run the loco on a powered layout.

 

Using a single LiPo allows me to power the 328 directly from it without a voltage regulator taking up space. I use a diode to drop the voltage a little for the nRF24.

 

...R

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  • 1 month later...

Hello Robin

 

Looks like we have a similar ambition :)

I have been following the great work of Geoff Bunza. http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/blog/geoff-bunza

He has a many variations of DCC accessory decoders based on the Arduino's, however he recently published a multifunction version with 2 motor control via a H-bridge/several led outputs and a servo output.

I have added the nFR24 you are using to it with the idea of taking the Track DCC and sending it to the nFR24, however my software skills are beginner level only and it's not happening for me :(

Looking at your solution it looks like you have the wireless DCC repeater up and running?

Any chance you could give me a few pointers on how you did it.

I have used a smaller version of the nFR24, its almost 50% smaller than the one you are using.

 

 

 

Regards Martinpost-23916-0-01144700-1462134366.jpeg

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Hi Robin and Martin,

 

We're singing roughly the same song. Rather than the AVR chip I used the Pololu Wixel as the brains as it has the wireless built in to the MCU board. I guess one of those ESP-based boards would be the equivalent now, with the benefit that it talks TCP. I also used a Pololu motor driver. The Wixel and motor driver ended up being about 15mm wide and 35mm long. I really like the Wixel, but it's a bit left-field for people used to Arduinos.

 

Nice dead-bugging Robin :)

 

Regards,

David.

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Hi Robin and Martin,

 

We're singing roughly the same song. Rather than the AVR chip I used the Pololu Wixel as the brains as it has the wireless built in to the MCU board. I guess one of those ESP-based boards would be the equivalent now, with the benefit that it talks TCP. I also used a Pololu motor driver. The Wixel and motor driver ended up being about 15mm wide and 35mm long. I really like the Wixel, but it's a bit left-field for people used to Arduinos.

 

Nice dead-bugging Robin :)

 

Regards,

David.

Hello David

 

Nice to hear you have a working wireless solution up and running, have you implemented the DCC commands to control it?

I am not to familiar with the Pololu range as I have concentrated on Arduino but it's all about getting the functionality into a small package.

 

Do you have a blog documenting your progress?

 

Regards

 

MartinK

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Looking at your solution it looks like you have the wireless DCC repeater up and running?

Any chance you could give me a few pointers on how you did it.

I have used a smaller version of the nFR24, its almost 50% smaller than the one you are using.

Regards Martinattachicon.gifimage.jpeg

My system has nothing whatever to do with DCC. It just uses analogRead() to get a value from a potentiometer on the hand controller and sends that value to loco - about 10 times per second. As part of the acknowledgement the loco sends back its battery voltage.

 

Can you post a link to the supplier of those small nRF24 modules.

 

The fundamentals of the code for my system are here in the Arduino Forum

 

...R

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Mine is not related to DCC either. I used simple ASCII commands from the controller to the loco receiver.

 

I think the way to go is to have the loco receiver generate a DCC signal and feed it to a standard DCC decoder on the loco, but I didn't get that far as I couldn't figure out how to make the DCC bi-polar waveform. I've since learned that just switching direction on a standard motor driver will do this fine so it should be easy enough.

 

This way you get all the benefits of the huge amount of DCC development and sound etc, with wireless. I'm sure someone in the US has a commercial system that does this.

 

My current small scale activity is building a DCC++ system for a layout for my kids.

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Mine is not related to DCC either. I used simple ASCII commands from the controller to the loco receiver.

 

I think the way to go is to have the loco receiver generate a DCC signal and feed it to a standard DCC decoder on the loco, but I didn't get that far as I couldn't figure out how to make the DCC bi-polar waveform. I've since learned that just switching direction on a standard motor driver will do this fine so it should be easy enough.

 

This way you get all the benefits of the huge amount of DCC development and sound etc, with wireless. I'm sure someone in the US has a commercial system that does this.

 

My current small scale activity is building a DCC++ system for a layout for my kids.

Apparently a future development of the Bluerail receiver board will do this with a smartphone/tablet App providing the commands. There is another system by MRC Loco Genie  just announced which drives a propriety DCC chip but you can only use 4 locos.

 

Meanwhile I will happily go on with my Deltang stuff. If all goes as planned I will have all 30 locos converted by the end of June.

 

Forgive me if I mentioned this before but a Protocab user says that although their transmitter can control up to 9 locos it can't do so at the same time. If you have a loco running and select another loco the original one stops!. Surely this can't be because it means the Protocab system is fatally crippled from the start. The minimum £210 start up cost for a transmitter and one loco is just too expensive.

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My system has nothing whatever to do with DCC. It just uses analogRead() to get a value from a potentiometer on the hand controller and sends that value to loco - about 10 times per second. As part of the acknowledgement the loco sends back its battery voltage.

 

Can you post a link to the supplier of those small nRF24 modules.

 

The fundamentals of the code for my system are here in the Arduino Forum

 

...R

Hello Robin

 

on eBay

1/2/3/5/10x Mini Board NRF24L01 + SMD 1.7MM Wireless Transceiver Module 1.9-3.6V

 

I will take a look at, there are quite a few people generating really good Arduino DCC projects. I wish I had better coding skills as the hardware is out here!

 

Regards

 

MartinK

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Mine is not related to DCC either. I used simple ASCII commands from the controller to the loco receiver.

 

I think the way to go is to have the loco receiver generate a DCC signal and feed it to a standard DCC decoder on the loco, but I didn't get that far as I couldn't figure out how to make the DCC bi-polar waveform. I've since learned that just switching direction on a standard motor driver will do this fine so it should be easy enough.

 

This way you get all the benefits of the huge amount of DCC development and sound etc, with wireless. I'm sure someone in the US has a commercial system that does this.

 

My current small scale activity is building a DCC++ system for a layout for my kids.

Hello dajt

Yes the TAM Valley "Deadrails" system uses an RF Linx to encode the DCC from the track and transmit it to an RX connected to a standard DCC decoder+battery in the loco. It works well but we are looking at The great work done by Geoff Bunza

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/blog/geoff-bunza

with a view to get his DCC decoder wireless or at least add a wireless Arduino to make it a battery powered loco.

Good luck with you project.

 

Regards

 

MartinK

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