GWR 1927 Non-corridor bow end stock

[Darwinian]

I have two sets of the sides and bogies from 247 developments (no-longer in production) for the suburban bow ended stock of 1927. The Composites to Diagram E131 and the brake thirds to diagram D.98.

 

I am now thinking about trying to build these into complete coaches and wondered if anyone could help clarify a few points.

 

Location of underframe equipment as assessed from Pictures in Russel GWR coaches Vol 2 and GWR coacehs Appendix vol 1.

 

Brake third (Appemdix fig. 227/228 :

Large battery boxes at either end of trussing on the side with the van end on the right, vac cylinder on smae side to left of left hand queen post. Vac cylinder on other side just outboard of last compartment. Dynamo on other side at compartment end. Foot steps for guard on both sides / off centre to left of guard's door.

 

Composite (Coaches Vol 2 fig 243/244):

Large battery boxes on both sides at 1st class end. Small battery box to right of right hand queen post onthe  side with 1st on left, only on this side, Dynamo this side too at 3rd class end. Vac cylinder on this side under centre 1st class compartment.

 

Does anyone have other pictures (knowledge) from this period (or otherwise) that can confirm this arrangement (especially whether the composites have large boxes on both sides)?

 

Also regarding the livery; I rather fancy the early livery with garter crest but simple chocolate and cream. Did this livery have any lining between the chocolate and cream? I cannot distinguish any in the book photos.

 

I am planning on making a four coach train - Van Third - Compo - Compo - Van third. They would only be 2 years old when my layout is set so may still be together?  I have afeeling they were not used in the Welsh Valley's at this time but its my train set..........

[chrisf]

I must admit I find GWR practice baffling where battery boxes are concerned - and livery and lining for that matter.  

 

The smaller box on the composite is, I think, a regulator box.  Some coaches have them inside the coach where there is space and this could explain why thee brake vehicles do not have them on the underframe.  Now as the non-corridor coaches were contemporaneous with the corridors that Hornby are producing it might be worth comparing them.  Who knows?  They might even be the same.

 

Remind me what "this time" is.  Some of these coaches did turn up in the Valleys but probably not until wartime, when the sets allocated to London were broken up and dispersed.  London set 25, comprising BTs 4977/8 and Cs 6387/8, became Cardiff set 27 according to an ancient issue of the Railway Observer.  Composites 6242 and 6628 were also noted in Cardiff but the writer of the note neglected to identify the other vehicles in the sets.  There was a war on, you know.  After the introduction of the interval service in 1953 the Cardiff sets were reformed into "standard 5 coach" sets and all kinds of everything could be seen.

 

HTH

 

Chris

[M.I.B]

I have plenty of HMRS pressfix garter logos for carriages and engines - 4mm.

 

PM me your address and I'll stick em in the post when I get Home.

 

Got Shirtbutons too needing a home......

[Darwinian]

I have plenty of HMRS pressfix garter logos for carriages and engines - 4mm.

 

PM me your address and I'll stick em in the post when I get Home.

 

Got Shirtbutons too needing a home......

Thanks for the offer. I have a good stock of garter crests too as most of my coach builds have been in twin shield livery.

[Darwinian]

I must admit I find GWR practice baffling where battery boxes are concerned - and livery and lining for that matter.  

 

The smaller box on the composite is, I think, a regulator box.  Some coaches have them inside the coach where there is space and this could explain why thee brake vehicles do not have them on the underframe.  Now as the non-corridor coaches were contemporaneous with the corridors that Hornby are producing it might be worth comparing them.  Who knows?  They might even be the same.

 

Remind me what "this time" is.  Some of these coaches did turn up in the Valleys but probably not until wartime, when the sets allocated to London were broken up and dispersed.  London set 25, comprising BTs 4977/8 and Cs 6387/8, became Cardiff set 27 according to an ancient issue of the Railway Observer.  Composites 6242 and 6628 were also noted in Cardiff but the writer of the note neglected to identify the other vehicles in the sets.  There was a war on, you know.  After the introduction of the interval service in 1953 the Cardiff sets were reformed into "standard 5 coach" sets and all kinds of everything could be seen.

 

HTH

 

Chris

Thanks Chris,

 

"This time" in my case is 1929 (ish) hence the choice of livery, so it looks like I'll have to bend history a bit and have a set sent to cardiff for trials.

 

Adrian

[NCB]

According to Slinn the change to simple chocolate and cream, initially without lining between the colours, occurred in 1927, and the Garter Crest disappeared in 1928. The lining appeared pretty quickly.

 

I reckon if you're using simple chocolate and cream with the Garter Crest then there's a fair chance that the coaches wouldn't be lined. Also, such coaches could well have carried that livery into 1929 and maybe later.

 

Hope that helps

Nigel

[HowardGWR]

According to my reading of the photos, even the 'plain jane' livery, referred to by Harris, has just a single black line between the brown and cream.  If you look closely at all the photos of that livery, in the enlarged photos in Russell, I think the line is there, though there is some difference of opinion over this aspect.

 

I don't understand the combination of garter crest with plain jane.  If there is such a photo, I would be pleased to have my attention drawn to it.  According to my reading, it went straight from imitation panelling and garter crests to plain jane with shields.

 

I admit I have not examined the suburban sets too closely; only the B sets.

[Darwinian]

 

 

I don't understand the combination of garter crest with plain jane.  If there is such a photo, I would be pleased to have my attention drawn to it.  According to my reading, it went straight from imitation panelling and garter crests to plain jane with shields.

 

I admit I have not examined the suburban sets too closely; only the B sets.

 

J.H. Russell GWR Coaches Appendix Vol 1 Figure 228 shows a Diagram D98 Non-corridor Brake Third in this livery. According to Russell's caption this was an official photo taken "as built" in "1928 livery". There is also a D8 Non-corridor clerestory in Fig 160 that appears to be in the same livery as the panels can barely be discerned. A quick flick through did not reveal any other examples so it was presumably a short lived livery between the abondoning of full panelling and the introduction of the twin shield motif.

 

Adrian

[Darwinian]

I have just found a few further examples of "plain Jane" + Garter with supporters livery. In John Lewis Great Wetern Auto Trialers Part 2. Both of the Alexandra Docks Railway trailers (GWR Pilot vans) rebuilt from steam railmotors are shown in this livery (p206-207). Lewis cites this as "Spring 1927 livery". Also on page 365 one of the ex Taff Vale trailers apears to be in this livery.

It could simply be in these cases that Welsh area workshops did the repaints and didn't think it worth lining out the very narrow panels between the windows although the driving end of one ADR vehicle is clearly seen to be plain chocolate and cream despite having quite wide panel areas.

 

Also a couple of main line stock vehicles in Russell's Great Western Coaches Appendix Vol 2, in the form of a G3 "Directors Saloon" (Fig 58) and G47 Saloon (Fig 97). Both of these saloons being corridor Clerestories. In all cases I cannot make out any lining between the Choclate and the cream.

 

Adrian

[HowardGWR]

Thanks Darwinian.  Clearly it will be only a few examples that would not have survived very long but for those who like variation, a find, indeed.  I really would like anyone to tell me that there really isn't a black line on the 'plain janes', as I see one (am getting old though).

[Darwinian]

Thanks Darwinian.  Clearly it will be only a few examples that would not have survived very long but for those who like variation, a find, indeed.  I really would like anyone to tell me that there really isn't a black line on the 'plain janes', as I see one (am getting old though).

Glad to be of assistance.

My reading of what I can find (just the well known references on the subject) is that this livery variant was probably applied from spring 1927 until summer (possibly August) 1928. I'm not sure how many vehicles would have passed through the works that year but I guess it would have been a reasonable number.

Micahel Harris in GWR Coaches says that the paintwork on coaches was expected to last up to 10 years before needing repainting but that they would be re-varnished periodically. Assuming the re-varnishing did not include replacement of the crests and lettering then it would seem reasonable to expect these vehicles to still be around in the early 1930s but then becoming rarer, with secondary stock probably the longest lived.

[Weaselfish]

Only just spotted this thread. Firstly a question for Darwinian: What's your plan for building up the complete coaches? I picked up two sets of the 247 E131 etches under the impression that they were overlays for the Airfix/Dapol/Hornby B sets coaches. However the etches are a scale 57' whereas the RTR B sets are 60'. The etches are a match for the length of the old-pattern Hornby 57' corridor stock but the roof curvature doesn't seem to match the non-corridor stock. I'll be following this thread with interest as I want to try to produce something that looks like a Birmingham area 4 coach set. 

[chrisf]

... the roof curvature doesn't seem to match the non-corridor stock ... 

 

Or anything else!  I have tried all sorts of things to bring it into line.  Even a surform blade proved ineffective.  Perhaps the best solution, unless anyone knows different, is to cut off the roof altogether and replace it with an aluminium one - 2971 from Dart Castings, for instance.

 

Chris 

[Mike G]

Only just spotted this thread. Firstly a question for Darwinian: What's your plan for building up the complete coaches? I picked up two sets of the 247 E131 etches under the impression that they were overlays for the Airfix/Dapol/Hornby B sets coaches. However the etches are a scale 57' whereas the RTR B sets are 60'. The etches are a match for the length of the old-pattern Hornby 57' corridor stock but the roof curvature doesn't seem to match the non-corridor stock. I'll be following this thread with interest as I want to try to produce something that looks like a Birmingham area 4 coach set. 

Do you mean an M set - something like this?

 

 

As far as the B sets are concerned I got the GA from the NRM for E147 and then substituted the profile of the MJT roof for etching purposes. Ended up with a nice fit like this.

 

 

I've nearly finished the E147 B set ( one done, one two thirds done) as soon as I've done the interior I'll post some pics.

 

Mike

[Darwinian]

Only just spotted this thread. Firstly a question for Darwinian: What's your plan for building up the complete coaches? I picked up two sets of the 247 E131 etches under the impression that they were overlays for the Airfix/Dapol/Hornby B sets coaches. However the etches are a scale 57' whereas the RTR B sets are 60'. The etches are a match for the length of the old-pattern Hornby 57' corridor stock but the roof curvature doesn't seem to match the non-corridor stock. I'll be following this thread with interest as I want to try to produce something that looks like a Birmingham area 4 coach set. 

 

My plan is to scratchbuild ends (whitemetal ones were made by 247 but I thought they would be too heavy), use 3mm brass U channel to fabricate a chassis (I've gone and bought 2.5mm due to mis-measuring , don't think I can get away with that). Rooves from aluminum extrusions (not sure what origin now), Bogies cast (247 ones). Remaining details plasticard, wire etc.

 

This lot is now on hold while I try to summon the courage to do all the door stops and hinges on more sides, it took me ages to do one. So a semi scratch build in Comet style.

[Weaselfish]

Thanks for the information and photos everyone. This is going to be a daily go-to thread.

 

CHRISF: Thanks for the pointers about the roof. I'll check that out. I've picked up a few old Hornby 57' coaches recently very cheaply with a mind to try my first foray into weathering and detailing.

 

MIKE G: That M set is lovely. What make and diagram are they? My reference source is an 'Birmingham Division Suburban Trains' by John Lewis in GWRJ 5, Winter 1993. Confusingly, in the Birmingham Division B sets were 4 coach formations of a variety of diagrams. The one I was looking at reproducing was D98 and E131 combination - there were 6 others. The 2x  brake compo sets as per the Airfix /Hornby models were called D sets in the Midlands. Nothing around here was called an M set. I've seen a couple of pictures of trains at Henley-In-Arden that look your M set though: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrha1410.htm

 

DARWINIAN: Thank you. I'll follow your progress with interest. I've got two options myself: Either hack about a couple of Hornby 57' coaches or fit the E131 sides to some BSL kits I bought on Ebay a while ago.

 

Thanks again all.

[chrisf]

An M set is* formed brake third, third, composite, brake third.  They used to work the sort of turns that were eventually turned over to Cross-Country dmus.  Some Divisions called them M sets, others left them anonymous - so much for standardisation!   As Mike's fine depiction shows, they were usually not uniform.  What mattered, as I have tried to explain in other threads that there is no reason for you to have read, was the right number of seats.

 

Chris

 

*  - here am I living in the past again!

 

EDIT - the picture taken at Henley in Arden shows what looks like a 4 coach suburban set strengthened with a C54 corridor third [as per new Hornby]

Edited March 15, 2016 by chrisf

[Edwardian]

M Sets, for me (South Devon in the Thirties) are best represented by cascaded clerestories.  The 57' bow-enders would be seen on cross-country expresses.

 

Very lovely Collett set by Mike G there.

[Mike G]

"MIKE G: That M set is lovely. What make and diagram are they? "

 

As Chris says, "An M set is* formed brake third, third, composite, brake third", All Comet models, 2 * D95, C60 and D121. For those who've built these they will appreciate just how many hinges that represents, plus door stops! I lived on Plant Hinge for nearly 2 weeks. I do have other photos of the individual coaches (taken before glazing), but that's the only one as a rake. If your wondering where the sides are to the bogies...ask Rodney Hall. I built them for him, the deal being I'd do the coaches, if he'd do the bogies. Well, I finished the coaches and the bogies still hadn't been done - so I did those as well and we're still waiting for the cosmetic sides from MJT to be fitted! His nick name, oh, that sits really well with these coaches...Lazy Bones Hall. I'm hoping that these will be scampering round LMJ for the Scale 4 Society, 40 year celebrations in Newport in June.

 

Mike

 

(http://newportmrs.co.uk/)

[Weaselfish]

An M set is* formed brake third, third, composite, brake third.  They used to work the sort of turns that were eventually turned over to Cross-Country dmus.  Some Divisions called them M sets, others left them anonymous - so much for standardisation!   As Mike's fine depiction shows, they were usually not uniform.  What mattered, as I have tried to explain in other threads that there is no reason for you to have read, was the right number of seats.

 

Chris

 

*  - here am I living in the past again!

 

EDIT - the picture taken at Henley in Arden shows what looks like a 4 coach suburban set strengthened with a C54 corridor third [as per new Hornby]

Hello Chris. Can you point me in the direction of the threads you mention above please? I've checked the posts list on your profile and it doesn't seem to be complete - I know I've read a lot of yours which don't seem to be on there.

 

Thank you,

 

Mark

[chrisf]

Good morning Mark and thanks for asking!

 

I've contributed to 'A Nod to Brent' and the Hornby Colletts thread a few times so there are several years of archaeology for you.  There have been others but my poor old forgettery isn't what it was. Haver you tried entering 'M set' into the search facility?  Yes, I know, it does not always work as it should but it is worth a shot.  I am trying to recall who it was who started a list of GWR set types a few years ago but it escapes me at present.  I'll have a mental rummage later.

 

Chris

[chrisf]

Good morning Mark and thanks for asking!

 

I've contributed to 'A Nod to Brent' and the Hornby Colletts thread a few times so there are several years of archaeology for you.  There have been others but my poor old forgettery isn't what it was. Haver you tried entering 'M set' into the search facility?  Yes, I know, it does not always work as it should but it is worth a shot.  I am trying to recall who it was who started a list of GWR set types a few years ago but it escapes me at present.  I'll have a mental rummage later.

 

Chris

 

The following threads ring a bell:

 

# GWR coach formations

 

#  Is there a surprising lack of RTR GWR Coaches

 

#  GWR carriage formations - set letter codes

 

Good hunting!

 

Chris

[Weaselfish]

The following threads ring a bell:

 

# GWR coach formations

 

#  Is there a surprising lack of RTR GWR Coaches

 

#  GWR carriage formations - set letter codes

 

Good hunting!

 

Chris

That's great - thanks Chris.

 

Mark

[MarkAustin]

It's worth noting that coach set designations changed, by time and by division. The term B-set for a Van Composite-Van Composite set is only applicable for the Bristol (I think) Traffic Division, after (about) WW1. Before then, it was a set of 4 or 6 wheelers (can't remember the exact  formation), and other Divisions used different codes. From memory, in the Birmingham Division a B-set was van Third-Composite-Composite-van Third, but don't quote me on that.

 

To be really accurate you need a copy of the appropriate local coach working programme, but they're like hen's teeth. There's a virtually complete set for the Bristol Division at The national Archives, but other than that they are difficult to get hold of.

 

Mark A

[chrisf]

To amplify Mark's post above, I've had a brief e-rummage through some cwps covering relatively modern times.  The use of 'B set' was not confined to the Bristol Division, being used officially also in the Exeter and Plymouth Divisions.  In the Cardiff Valleys the use of pairs of brake composites ended in 1953.  What they were called in the Newport division I know not since I do not have access to a Newport cwp.  There were booklets setting out workings in the Gloucester, Newport, Cardiff and Swansea Districts but only trains working in more than one division qualified for inclusion!  The term 'B set' was used in this. There was limited use of such pairs in the London Division but they were not given a title, nor in the Swansea Division.  Certainly in the Birmingham Division they were designated as D sets.  

 

None of this will stop us calling the wretched things B sets.  It is useful shorthand and was good enough for the Royal Corps of Train Spotters [sorry, Railway Correspondence and Travel Society] in the 1950s.  Everyone knows what is meant by the term, even if at times its use is not strictly accurate.

 

Chris