GWR 1927 Non-corridor bow end stock

[MarkAustin]

Chris, thanks for the amplification. My reason for posting was to make clear that terminology differed from Division to Division, so moellers cannot assume that a B-Set means van Composite-Van Composite without other proof. I agree that we're stick with B-Set as a shorthand for said combination.

 

Mark A

Edited March 23, 2016 by MarkAustin

[Darwinian]

Fascinating discussion   . My interpretation is that this is a D-set for the Cardiff division: Van third, compo, compo, van third. As I've pretty much started this here I might as well carry on. Perhaps the mods will let me know if I should move it to the kit/scratchbuilding area.

 

Inspired by the interest shown I've had a bash at assembling a van third body as a test run. Because I'm using an extruded aluminium roof the upper sides don't slope in quite as much as they possibly should because this extrusion is a bit too wide at the cantrail. However if the whole set looks the same it hopefully won't show too much .

 

Here's the basic body shell.

 

And close up of the van end.

 

The ends and floor are scratchbuilt in brass sheet, quite thin for the floor to save weight, which has the edge 3mm turned up to produce a shallow trough to attach the sides to. My intention is to add a couple of brass internal partitions for stiffness and then build the rest of the internals from plastic. Again with a view to saving weight as a set of four with whitemetal bogies is going to be enough (although hopefully not too much) for my locos to lug up the valley to Cwmhir .

[Darwinian]

Basic bones of the underframe now built. I decided to stick with the 2.5mm channel-section as it allows a bit more clearance above the bogie side frames. To my eyes it looks OK and matches up with the ex-airfix B-set I have with a similar body style.

 

 

The bogies are the ones that used to be produced by 247 developments mounted on their cast bogie bolsters/pivots using 10ba bolts. The hole in the bogie centre stretcher is a very sloppy fit around the bolt so I intend to put a brass plate onto the underside of the bogie stretcher with a correct sized hole. The bogie mounts have two curved supports so that the bogie can only tilt in one plane. I presume the idea is to have one that tilts side to side and the other for and aft.

By sheer good fortune the ride height has come out spot on.

 

 

Trussing to be built up from 1mm x 1mm brass angle. More lands to be put into the frame to attach the undergubbins.

 

I cannot find many pictures of ends of these vehicles. I think the van end has 8 steps plus handrails, two side lamp irons, one bottom left lamp iron, 2 steps above the ends of the buffer beam and that's it. Compartment end has emergency alarm gear and lamp irons.

 

Does anyone know if there were jumper cables on either end? I cannot see any in the pictures I have found.

 

Also were the two long handrails on the roof on the centre line?

 

Happy Easter everyone.

 

 

[drduncan]

It's worth noting that coach set designations changed, by time and by division. The term B-set for a Van Composite-Van Composite set is only applicable for the Bristol (I think) Traffic Division, after (about) WW1. Before then, it was a set of 4 or 6 wheelers (can't remember the exact  formation), and other Divisions used different codes. From memory, in the Birmingham Division a B-set was van Third-Composite-Composite-van Third, but don't quote me on that.

 

To be really accurate you need a copy of the appropriate local coach working programme, but they're like hen's teeth. There's a virtually complete set for the Bristol Division at The national Archives, but other than that they are difficult to get hold of.

 

Mark A

Can you give the national archives reference numbers?

Drduncan

[MarkAustin]

Can you give the national archives reference numbers?

Drduncan

The Bristol Diary, which contains a pile of fascinating stuff, including local carriage workings, is at RAIL 253/527-556 runs from 1904/5 (527) to 1936 (556): one piece per year, apart from the first which starts in October 1904.

 

If you can't get up there, I'll be there on Tuesday. Volunteering, but I plan to pop upstairs after I've finished. Give a year and I'll photograph the relevant section.

 

However, if you're modelling anything in the Bristol Division, these files are well worth a look. Someone seems to have pasted every circular they got into a scrap book.

 

I seem to recall having seen more at another reference, but can't track this down. I'll have another look over the weekend.

 

For information, the Through Carriage Programmes are RAIL 938, piece 1 being given as 1892-1898, then yearly to 1926. Again, I think there are some more, but can't find the reference.

 

Edited to add. The TNA catalogue is on-line at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

 

Mark A

Edited April 7, 2016 by MarkAustin

[Darwinian]

A basic Interior fabricated from plasticard, evergreen strip for the guard's pigeonhole's and ratio seat mouldiongs.

 

The interior is in three sections (van and one compartment section shown) as there are two brass bulkheads soldered across the body to keep the sides supported. The plasticard end on the seating nearest the camera is simply to fill out the gap as the last section of seating moulding was a bit short.

 

 

I will add a brake stanchion but most of this detail is barely visible through the door and end windows so no greater details.

[Darwinian]

Lost my mojo for this project and got sidetracked onto other things, then my Hornby Collett Bow ender arrived and I realised that the underframe was the same so they'll probably make some at some point (?). So better get these built before that happens!

 

More work completed on the underframe.

 

 

And end detailing begun

 

 

A comparison with the ex-Airfix (now Hornby) B-set brake compo.

 

 

The slightly shallow solebar isn't that noticeable and will be even less so once the step board has been added.

 

Since taking these I have added the buffer beams and the brake rodding. However I put on the brake rodding as for a Composite but it has to be different as both vacuum cylinders are on the same side of the V-hangers so I'll have to correct it.

 

[Darwinian]

Life has rather got in the way of the building of this set over the last few months. However progress has been made if very slowly. I lost my mojo for these when I realised that the sides are designed so that the gutter side/cantrail is part of the roof. However the aluminium roof sections I'm using don't include it. I recently struck on the idea that I could use fine brass angle attached to the roof edge and that seems to be a workable solution. So work has recommenced with the underframes for both of the composites (Dia E131).

 

Here are some iPod pictures of the progress. Underframe ladder and main metal components. One completed and one still in bits. The battery boxes are Frogmore etches. I have decided to add black plasticard backs to these after painting rather than the tricky soldering on of metal backs I did on the brake third. The cast bits (Vac cylinders and dynamo) are still to be added along with the train heating pipe and brake rigging.

 

 

A slightly out of focus image to show how I make the queen posts.

 

 

They are 1.5 mm x 1.5mm brass angle. Cut to length and held in a small machine vice that I picked up from a second hand tools shop years ago. Using a piercing saw I cut down the angle to the depth of 1.5mm. Then cut across to take out a small square section. Tidy up the square opeining with needle files and file the end of the upstanding length into a neat arch.

By doing half of them on this side of the vice jaws and half on the other side I end up with equal numbers of handed queen posts.  

 

 

 

 

 

[Darwinian]

I've had a re-read of Harris (Great Western Coaches from 1890, David and Charles pubs.) and extracted the following from the table of lots:

 

Lot 1376 01/10/27 E131  (36 numbers listed) +  Lot 1377  also 1/10/27 D.98 40 numbers listed - To form 20 four coach trains (no comment on allocations).

Lot 1388 23/2/29 E131 (16 numbers) + Lot 1389 also 23/2/29 16 numbers listed - to form 8 trains for Chester and Birmingham areas.

 

The 5 coach Cardiff/Newport division trains of 1928 followed these but are diagrams D101, C56. E134.

 

On page 78 where these coaches are briefly discussed the comment is made that the "sets for general service" (did not have the curved seats of the first (1925) sets. "Over the next 3 years further sets.......... to cover Chester, Birmingham and South Wales" would be 1926-29 so presumably the Lot 1388/1389 and onwards.

 

I interpret that to mean that the 1927 sets were for general service so could have turned up in S.Wales at least that's my excuse for having them and in the 1927 livery.

 

My platform at Cwmhir isn't long enough for a 5 coach set anyway so it'll have to be a four coach set.

[coachmann]

Didn't the bow end non-corridors have recessed guards door ~ admittedly not an easy thing to create in brass.  BSL did it for us in pressed aluminium.

[chrisf]

Not the ones that Darwinian is discussing, Larry.  The D109 [six compartments] and D110 [five compartments] may be the ones you have in mind.  They have the same profile as the E140 and E145 brake composites, oh so familiar as B set coaches.  They had recessed door handles  but nobody told Airfix.

 

Chris

 

EDIT - I forgot something.  The first batch of D98/E131 was divided between Birmingham [15 sets] and London [5 sets].  One of the London sets, comprising brake thirds 4977/8 and composites 6387/8, was transferred to Cardiff during the war.  

Edited July 24, 2017 by chrisf

[Coach bogie]

I have a BSL sub set with a pair of compos and a pair of D109's. The sides and plan both have flush guards doors but I have only found images of recessed guards doors.

 

A bit of a cut up to recess the doors.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Darwinian]

EDIT - I forgot something.  The first batch of D98/E131 was divided between Birmingham [15 sets] and London [5 sets].  One of the London sets, comprising brake thirds 4977/8 and composites 6387/8, was transferred to Cardiff during the war.  

 

Thanks Chris, looks like I'll just have to invoke "rule 1".

 

Adrian (Darwinian)

 

 

[Darwinian]

I lost my mojo a bit on these but have been trying to make some progress. Here are the four chassis getting to the final detailing stages. I have realised that the between vac cylinder brake linkage rod on the one I have done may be wrong. Will need to correct that.

Two chassis have 247 developments vac cylinders and the others comet ones. I kept the same type on each of the compos or brakes.

 

 

 

 

 

[Darwinian]

Fettling footboards: I realised that the long sides of the etch around the side etches was about the right depth for making the footboards and being pretty even and the right length too was a bargain as it's waste otherwise. But how to hold a piece of flat strip into the U channel of the solebars?

 

The answer I came up with was to drill 0.5mm holes 5mm in from each end an then at 30mm centres leaving is a just under 40 mm in the middle. These were right up against the lower edge of the brass channel. Into these I soldered a length of 0.45mm brass wire with "tinmans" solder which has a high melting point. The wire was then cut approximately in line with the buffer stock erring on the side of over long.

 

 

 

The strip from the edges of the fret was cleaned up what will be the front corners radiused and then soldered in place with a quick application of 120 degree solder. I found a cheap 6" metal rule was ideal for helping to keep the footboard straight and at the right angle.

 

 

Fiddly and rather time consuming but it worked.

[Darwinian]

Oh dear another month has passed and progress is barely noticeable.

 

Actually several fiddly jobs gave been done. A brass washer plate was put into each bogie bolster to take the 10ba bolts without as much slop as the whitemetal holes would have given. All bogie pivots and mounts fitted. Brake rigging and  dynamo belts on all underframes. Couplings fitted: hook under the bufferbeam screw and vac representations (Bill Bedford castings) for all the intermediate connections and Dingham's (temporarily fitted) on the outer ends of the brake/3rds. Had to take care to make sure they all link up in the correct order with the 1st class compartments of the comps in the middle.

 

Here they are being test run on Cwmhir (Sorry depth of field is limited, it's an iPod picture).

 

 

I was concerned that they might be too heavy for the Bachmann 66xx to haul up the valley into Cwmhir but it had no problem. Now I just have to sort out why they keep derailing on the plain track. I suspect it is due to the semi-rigid couplings tending to lift the ends of adjoining vehicles up or jam onto the tops of the bogie stretchers as the gradient changes.

 

I also had quite a few shorts but couldn't be sure if these were due to derailing only. If not I may have to provide some clearance holes in the underframe stretchers above the outer wheelset of every bogie (groan).

 

Otherwise fitting representations of the brake linkage safety loops and fitting the buffers will see the chassis about as complete as I can manage (oh, and steam and vac pipes on the brake ends too).

[Darwinian]

Hmm, still getting derailing and shorts at the moment, not as bad but still too many, Blast.

 

Also does anyone have any advice on the arrangement of the train alarm gear on the ends of these carriages? I cannot find any pictures in my collected books that show it. Obviously it was on the 3rd end of the Brake/3rds but which end of the Composites? If push comes to shove I'll just copy my Hornby Collett's arrangement but  I hate making models of models.

 

Thanks in anticipation.

[coachmann]

Hmm, still getting derailing and shorts at the moment, not as bad but still too many, Blast.

 

Also does anyone have any advice on the arrangement of the train alarm gear on the ends of these carriages? I cannot find any pictures in my collected books that show it. Obviously it was on the 3rd end of the Brake/3rds but which end of the Composites? If push comes to shove I'll just copy my Hornby Collett's arrangement but  I hate making models of models.

 

Thanks in anticipation.

Diagram E134 shows the train alarm on the third class end of the non-corridor composite coach.

Edited November 20, 2017 by coachmann

[Darwinian]

Thanks coachmann, I imagine the gear was no different to others of the same period.

[Darwinian]

More slow progress. I've been building up the interiors. The picture shows the equipment used and some of the back to back seats. 1mm plasticard floor sections, 20 thou (old stock I've had for years) for the partitions, ratio seat mouldings.

 

The partitions are all up to cantrail level, plus a bit for the plastic ones. These are layout coaches so no one will be able to look up into the compartments to see that they don't actually reach the roof.

 

 

Too cold in the loft to do anything up there so will have to bring the soldering station down to progress with the bodies, The shorting problem might only be because there is just enough slop in the bearings for some tyre flanges to touch the bolsters on some of the bogies but I need to investigate further with a multimeter to be sure.

[Darwinian]

Further investigation of the bogies with a multimeter showed that on several the flanges were just able to touch the central part of the bogie causing a possible source of the shorts. A bit of coarse wet and dry worked betwixt flange and casting soon sorted those out. Re-testing on the layout showed no shorts with the set one way around but the other way there was still a short at one point. So I've also made cutouts in the frame plates above the outboard wheels at each end, the inboard ones were not covered anyway. I'll put a layer of selotape (other brands available) on the underside of the body floors to make sure there is no short there.

 

Spent yesterday evening cutting roof extrusions to length.

 

 

 

 

My approach was to file the flats under the gutter at one end so that it could sit over the coach ends. Mark the curve of the bow end from below with a scriber. Cut slightly oversize with a piercing saw and then file back. Then do the second end taking care to start slightly over long and work back checking frequently.

I'm not sure of the origin of these profiles but they are pretty close to the drawings in Russel. They don't have the cantrail on them so I will have to add that using brass angle.

 

Some final fettling to do and one of the coach bodies doesn't have enough curve to it so will need redoing.

[coachmann]

I'm not sure of the origin of these profiles but they are pretty close to the drawings in Russel. They don't have the cantrail on them so I will have to add that using brass angle.

They look to me like the roof that originated at PC Models but is now available all over the place. You mentioned not having a cantrail, but you probably meant the gutter.  Comet do an extrusion with a meatier gutter. 

[Darwinian]

They look to me like the roof that originated at PC Models but is now available all over the place. You mentioned not having a cantrail, but you probably meant the gutter.  Comet do an extrusion with a meatier gutter. 

Oops. yes you are of course quite right Coachmann I did mean the side-on visible upright bit of the gutter. I have a couple of commet GWR coaches so know about their extrusion but am saving cash by going with what I have.

[Darwinian]

Well sorting out the gutters turned out to be easier by soldering the angle to the top of the sides. I never would have believed it if I hadn't tried it, after gluing the angle to the roof with epoxy proved impossible.

 

I lightly abraded the top edge of the sides, tinned with multicore solder using a V-shaped bit in the iron. Trapped the angle between the aluminium roof and the side. Applied Carrs Green label flux and spot soldered along the length using as little solder as possible and trying to keep the outer face of the angle upright (although it tends to do that anyway).

 

Here are the results once the short excess length had been trimmed off using a piercing saw.

 

 

 

Just the other three coaches to do now!

 

[coachmann]

Well sorting out the gutters turned out to be easier by soldering the angle to the top of the sides. I never would have believed it if I hadn't tried it, after gluing the angle to the roof with epoxy proved impossible.

 

I lightly abraded the top edge of the sides, tinned with multicore solder using a V-shaped bit in the iron. Trapped the angle between the aluminium roof and the side. Applied Carrs Green label flux and spot soldered along the length using as little solder as possible and trying to keep the outer face of the angle upright (although it tends to do that anyway).

 

Here are the results once the short excess length had been trimmed off using a piercing saw.

 

 

Certainly the best way of doing it to ensure a neat and correctly positioned job. Will you have it finished by Monday....?