Motorail

[Phil Bullock]

2 hours ago, Flood said:

From the 1970 WR Marshalling Book:

 

 

Restaurant Unclassified included in the rake. It doesn't state the stock is from another region so it must be Western Region allocated, very probably Laira.

Edit: The LMR book states WR stock.

 

There was a great mix of stock being used for motorail traffic to the West Country from the north at this time....

 

TCVs from Stirling and Sheffield

GUVs from Worcester

Flats from Newton Le Willows

 

And all within our compass on Abbotswood.... now how about some TCVs in Blue boxes please? 

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Phil Bullock

[Atlantic]

Thanks very much.

I've seen several pictures of this train in the 80s and by then it doesn't appear to have any catering. Seems strange to me.

[keefer]

Maybe just indicative of the general reduction in 'proper' catering (i.e. meals) from the late-'70s onwards.

I could imagine trains like this going to an RMB (snacks and hot/cold drinks only) before losing the catering altogether.

[Phil Bullock]

Wasnt there a facility to pre-order a picnic hamper on some services?

[Metr0Land]

29 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said:

Wasnt there a facility to pre-order a picnic hamper on some services?

 

Indeed there was.  My late wife and I took the Motorail from Olympia to Stirling in Sep73 and ordered these for the northbound journey. 

[grid56104]

sorry no loco number or the exact service but a class 47 storms south through Cumbernauld (where I grew up) with a motorail train probably bound for Kensington Olympia or St Austell. Max Fowler

[GordonC]

20 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

 

There was a great mix of stock being used for motorail traffic to the West Country from the north at this time....

 

TCVs from Stirling and Sheffield

GUVs from Worcester

Flats from Newton Le Willows

 

And all within our compass on Abbotswood.... now how about some TCVs in Blue boxes please? 

 

 

 

 

Was it a separate train from Newton-le-Willows to the West Country? I had thought it was just a stopping off point en-route from Stirling

 

When did the flats from N-L-W finish? or did it go over to other stock before the service finished?

[MidlandRed]

On 17 May 2020 at 14:44, Phil Bullock said:

 

There was a great mix of stock being used for motorail traffic to the West Country from the north at this time....

 

TCVs from Stirling and Sheffield

GUVs from Worcester

Flats from Newton Le Willows

 

And all within our compass on Abbotswood.... now how about some TCVs in Blue boxes please? 

 

 

 

 

Hi - slightly off topic and resulting from another thread regarding Lickey Banker Hymeks, did you have any record of the Worcester - Bristol - Newton Abbott Motorail commandeering any of these from Worcester, being observed at Abbotswood? Thanks and sorry for the slight off topic - the Motorail publicity materials and site are excellent - brings back fond memories of the late 60s/ early 70s BR era.  

Edited May 18, 2020 by MidlandRed

[Chris M]

I have a soft spot for the Motorail service as it greatly influenced my interest in railways. This is my little Motorail story.

As my father was busy with work my 17 or 18 year old brother was to be the driver for our family holiday in Newquay. I was a mere lad. It must have been 1967 or 1968. Because he was so young it was decided we should catch the Motorail from Sutton Coldfield to Newton Abbot. I remember it was an overnight service and we had a compartment for mom, big brother, little sister and me. The loco was what I then called a Brush 4. I don't think there was a buffet on the train but I'm pretty sure it was possible to get a cup of tea on the train - don't know how.

Anyway we got to Newton Abbot and set off towards Newquay. Unfortunately within a few miles the car had broken down. We were towed back to a garage in Newton Abbot and had no choice but to catch the train to Newquay as the car repair would take days. 

For me this turned out to be the greatest day. It was the first time I  got to see Westerns and Warships. What wonderful machines, all named and mostly painted maroon. I especially enjoyed waiting for the Newquay train at Bodmin Road with all the summer Saturday trains. Yes I know Par is the junction but we were told to change at Bodmin Road. 

Pretty much all the layouts I have  built as an adult have been based in the West Country running hydraulics. This may not have been the case if it was not for Motorail and a car breakdown.

I would have liked to get a Motorail service for my layout but when I worked out how many carflats and cars I would need to make a reasonable representation I dropped the idea.

[Phil Bullock]

On 18/05/2020 at 10:52, GordonC said:

 

Was it a separate train from Newton-le-Willows to the West Country? I had thought it was just a stopping off point en-route from Stirling

 

 

According to Robert Carroll's carriage workings the train ran from NLW to either NA MFO or Stirling WThSO.  

 

WTT for the Birmingham - Gloucester section in 71/72 has  Stirling - NA service as 1V54/1S56 - but no record of the NLW train. Does that mean it ran via the North and West and through the Severn Tunnel? 

 

13 hours ago, Chris M said:

I would have liked to get a Motorail service for my layout but when I worked out how many carflats and cars I would need to make a reasonable representation I dropped the idea.

 

Booked load 17 on the NLW trains!!! Thats where TCVs would help as they are 6 cars per vehicle as opposed to 4 in a GUV or Carflat. Ratio of flats/GUVs to passenger coaches is 2:1 but TCVs cut that to 1.5:1 so more scope. We are planning load 12 for our version of the NA - Stirling - should be 17 too.

 

16 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

 

Hi - slightly off topic and resulting from another thread regarding Lickey Banker Hymeks, did you have any record of the Worcester - Bristol - Newton Abbott Motorail commandeering any of these from Worcester, being observed at Abbotswood? Thanks and sorry for the slight off topic - the Motorail publicity materials and site are excellent - brings back fond memories of the late 60s/ early 70s BR era.  

 

No record .... but thats not to say it didnt happen - or wont some time in the future!  Would have loved to have been at Vigo to see load 17 go up with the bankers....

[Phil Bullock]

31 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said:

WTT for the Birmingham - Gloucester section in 71/72 has  Stirling - NA service as 1V54/1S56 - but no record of the NLW train. Does that mean it ran via the North and West and through the Severn Tunnel? 

 

And just answered my own question by reading back up this thread... page 2 .... many thanks to @br2975 , yes it ran via Hereford

Edited May 19, 2020 by Phil Bullock

[GordonC]

1 hour ago, Phil Bullock said:

 

According to Robert Carroll's carriage workings the train ran from NLW to either NA MFO or Stirling WThSO.  

 

WTT for the Birmingham - Gloucester section in 71/72 has  Stirling - NA service as 1V54/1S56 - but no record of the NLW train. Does that mean it ran via the North and West and through the Severn Tunnel? 

 

 

Booked load 17 on the NLW trains!!! Thats where TCVs would help as they are 6 cars per vehicle as opposed to 4 in a GUV or Carflat. Ratio of flats/GUVs to passenger coaches is 2:1 but TCVs cut that to 1.5:1 so more scope. We are planning load 12 for our version of the NA - Stirling - should be 17 too.

 

 

No record .... but thats not to say it didnt happen - or wont some time in the future!  Would have loved to have been at Vigo to see load 17 go up with the bankers....

 

So if it was on alternate days then does that mean it was just one set of coaches and flats so one day it would do Stirling-NLW-NA and the following day NA-NLW-Stirling

 

I live in Newton-le-Willows now and have seen the remains of the motorail ramp, but haven't managed to find much info about the trains that used it. Load 17 is quite a length, there must have been photos of how it was handled there, haven't stumbled across any yet

[Phil Bullock]

1 hour ago, GordonC said:

 

So if it was on alternate days then does that mean it was just one set of coaches and flats so one day it would do Stirling-NLW-NA and the following day NA-NLW-Stirling

 

I live in Newton-le-Willows now and have seen the remains of the motorail ramp, but haven't managed to find much info about the trains that used it. Load 17 is quite a length, there must have been photos of how it was handled there, haven't stumbled across any yet

 

From my interpretation of the carriage working notes yes that is correct Gordon - the same rake.

 

7 coaches - BSK, RBK, TSO, 3xFK, BSK - plus 10 flats. At most locations the flats were loaded away from a passenger platform so the coaches were seperated - what were the arrangements at NLW like?

 

And have just realised I have a saved photo of 1547 on the NLW train at Cheltenham - 1M36 .... so not running via Hereford! Now confused.com.....

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Phil Bullock

[acg5324]

The TCVs were restricted to four cars on the main deck only fairly early on due to a major staff accident involving the lower deck lift.

[GordonC]

On 19/05/2020 at 15:23, Phil Bullock said:

 

From my interpretation of the carriage working notes yes that is correct Gordon - the same rake.

 

7 coaches - BSK, RBK, TSO, 3xFK, BSK - plus 10 flats. At most locations the flats were loaded away from a passenger platform so the coaches were seperated - what were the arrangements at NLW like?

 

And have just realised I have a saved photo of 1547 on the NLW train at Cheltenham - 1M36 .... so not running via Hereford! Now confused.com.....

 

 

 

 

Well thats what I'm not entirely sure about how they would have been handled, I only moved to the area long after Motorail services finished and all thats really visible now is the loading ramp to the side near the end of the Manchester bound platform. The industrial buildings and area behind have recently been redeveloped in the last 6 or 7 years so thats all housing now.

 

 

So I presume the flats would have been detached and parked up there, but even the 2 main station platforms in each direction cant be more than 5 coaches long, possibly 6 at a squeeze. I'm not aware of there being any other platforms at the time, but I wouldn't have expected the motorail coaches could have parked up and blocked the through lines for long. There would have been additional siding space at the time with Parkside Colliery branching off near there and a couple of loops, but its really not the kind of station I would have expected to handle load 17 trains often.

 

This is looking back towards the station so the motorail sidings will be behind the train unfortunately, I'm also not seeing signs of Overhead wire access right to the sidings so either the coaches were used to shunt the flats in or possibly a Class 08 was outbased nearby?

 

https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/72/796/

 

 

[Phil Bullock]

3 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

Well thats what I'm not entirely sure about how they would have been handled, I only moved to the area long after Motorail services finished and all thats really visible now is the loading ramp to the side near the end of the Manchester bound platform. The industrial buildings and area behind have recently been redeveloped in the last 6 or 7 years so thats all housing now.

 

 

So I presume the flats would have been detached and parked up there, but even the 2 main station platforms in each direction cant be more than 5 coaches long, possibly 6 at a squeeze. I'm not aware of there being any other platforms at the time, but I wouldn't have expected the motorail coaches could have parked up and blocked the through lines for long. There would have been additional siding space at the time with Parkside Colliery branching off near there and a couple of loops, but its really not the kind of station I would have expected to handle load 17 trains often.

 

This is looking back towards the station so the motorail sidings will be behind the train unfortunately, I'm also not seeing signs of Overhead wire access right to the sidings so either the coaches were used to shunt the flats in or possibly a Class 08 was outbased nearby?

 

https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/72/796/

 

 

 

This might help... https://www.flickr.com/photos/45021513@N08/49099657217/

 

[GordonC]

1 hour ago, Phil Bullock said:

 

This might help... https://www.flickr.com/photos/45021513@N08/49099657217/

 

 

Yes, there are some fabulous pictures there. Also this one from the end of the platform a bit earlier

 

 

[BR(S)]

Class 85 on a Motorail service here in 1986, from 14:27:

 

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by BR(S)

[HillsideDepot]

For those that "do" Facebook a new group, "British Railways. The lost Motorail Services" started today. No connection except as a group member, but it looks like it might produce some interesting posts.

[Padishar Creel]

7 hours ago, BR(S) said:

Class 85 on a Motorail service here in 1986, from 14:27:

 

 

Hallo

I know this clip very well. There are some amazing Crewe 1990 clips on YouTube. There is also a Motorail service from 8m42 with 2 GUVs immediately behind the 87. 

Which service could that be?

es grüßt 

pc

[The Pilotman]

2 hours ago, Padishar Creel said:

Hallo

I know this clip very well. There are some amazing Crewe 1990 clips on YouTube. There is also a Motorail service from 8m42 with 2 GUVs immediately behind the 87. 

Which service could that be?

es grüßt 

pc

My guess would be Euston-Carlisle but someone with access to the carriage workings should be able to confirm for sure. 

[D826]

This might be of interest - Kenny O, Westerns, a glimpse of a peak, sunny Devon, sand, hydraulics, heaven !

 

 

 

I'd have been on the seawall lapping up the passing rail traffic, not the sea !  Yet to find any YouTube footage of my fave though - the Milk Trains. 

 

It's simple, but very very nostalgic.  

 

Best regards

 

Matt W

[montyburns56]

I came across this picture on Flickr which I thought I'd post as I never realised that some of the Motorail GUVs had a rubbing plate fitted.

 

Kings Cross 1983 by Jamerail

 

 

[keefer]

Not just the rubbing plate but buckeye coupler and retractable buffers - i.e. as on a passenger coach. (The one in the pic is set up for coupling to the loco, with buckeye dropped and buffers extended)

As they were dedicated Motorail GUVs, it made sense as it was easier when making up the train - just couple them up like everything else, no faffing about with their screw couplings.

Presumably made the whole train a bit more stable and less prone to snatching, particularly at 90+ mph (these GUVs had CW or B5 bogies)

 

Edited July 13, 2021 by keefer

[Bomag]

2 hours ago, keefer said:

Not just the rubbing plate but buckeye coupler and retractable buffers - i.e. as on a passenger coach. (The one in the pic is set up for coupling to the loco, with buckeye dropped and buffers extended)

As they were dedicated Motorail GUVs, it made sense as it was easier when making up the train - just couple them up like everything else, no faffing about with their screw couplings.

Presumably made the whole train a bit more stable and less prone to snatching, particularly at 90+ mph (these GUVs had CW or B5 bogies)

 

 

While motorail GUVs which ended up in the 96xxx range got CW/B5 bogies all still had BR2 bogies (as in the photo) while in the 86xxx series. Some LMR ones got rebogied from 1985 while still in the 93xx range. Presumably the ER ones weren't done as 47/4s had difficulty getting trains up to 90 mph never mind 95mph except when going down stoke bank.

 

I believe that using buckeye couplings etc  made it easier to driver cars between vehicles.