RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted December 13, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 13, 2016 It's early days, but the first test was promising. Now back to work and off to Sevilla for the rest of the week, so no more progress until the weekend. At which point the first task is getting tie bars fitted. The one area the slip shows a threat of problems is the clearance between the switch blades and neighbouring rail. The clearance is ok at the end but gets very narrow (closer to P4 than 00 mid way along the switch. My thought was a double tie bar holding both the end and middle in place The other key job is to get the slide chairs fitted to properly hold the rest of the rail in place 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted December 23, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 23, 2016 I still cant get myself motivated to go out and work on the model, instead i have been doing some more research. The aim of the layout is to model a day in the life of the station (possibly extended to modelling one week day and a Sunday, given the interesting workings the latter offers). Having previously discussed the research so far (coach workings, time tables and the like), the next step was to work out exactly what needs to be built. The first step was to read through the coach working book and identify the relationships between different workings, identifying the workings which use the same coaches. This allowed me to breakdown a full day's formations into the minimum number of complete sets, 36 of them.... The next step was to start looking in books, starting with the very useful "Great Western Steam 1934 - 1949 by Arlett & Lockett) which enabled identification of 8 formations, and 3 partial sets. Photos from the Cornwall Railways website filled in another 7, and RMWeb (and Chris F) another. I now need to go through the rest of my books to try and identify the rest... I have also finally identified a possible LNER coach to include, with a BCK attached to a scratch Bristol - Penzance set on Sundays which had arrived from Sheffield via Swindon. There was also a mention of a 1949 southern set of Ironclads running as an excursion along the sea wall which might be tempting... Of course this wasnt the real objective of the evening, which will now have to wait. I want to try and get a better understanding as to the loco requirements for Brent, in particular which shed would be providing the locomotive for each train. This way I can try and get an appropriate mix of Newton Abbot, Laira, Old Oak etc locos into the fleet (rather than the current fleet which is probably weighted too far towards Laira and Newton Abbot machines... Tomorrow I am determined to get back to work on the layout for the last time before Christmas, there either through making a start on building the platforms, goods shed or Avon bridge. Or maybe even getting on with rebuilding the double slip, or wiring up the Exeter end....... 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted December 31, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 31, 2016 So here is the first year of my South Brent project in review 31th December 2016 February: Project starts as a P4 continuous run, initial Templot plan drawn up for a layout inspired by Brent (but categorically not a model of the actual location.) March: Finally accept that there is not enough space to build in P4, nor do I have the time to convert the stock. Plan redrawn in OO. Baseboard construction started. April/ May: Not a lot happens June: Baseboards are finished, goods shed drawn up July: Track laying starts with the mainline through the station. August: The first point is finished, along with the first Slip. initial track wired up and first video of the layout recorded. September: Trackbed for the Avon bridge laid, along with track to the edge of the fiddleyard. Lots more wiring. Baby arrives and massively disrupts modelling time, we went into hospital on a day that I had booked off for a days work on the layout! October: Tortoise motors installed, landscaping started west of the Avon bridge with pink foam. November: Start of yard track building, and the first double slip, photo trip to Brent. Baby's colic gets worse, limiting modelling further. December: Double slip finished, it doesn't work. focus turns to stock while I build myself up to trying again... Air for 2017: I am currently undecided as to which route I will take. The first option is to focus on track building, finishing off the remaining scenic track before making a start on the fiddle yard. The alternate option is to focus on scenery, getting the platforms built along with the 3 bridges. I suspect the end result will be somewhere in between. If nothing else, I want those two double slips built and running! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted December 31, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 31, 2016 Personally, I would get the trackwork sorted first, if you have got this right, the rest will follow. Without recourse to keep backtracking to sort out inbuilt problems. Track building may not be the most glamorous part of railway modelling, but it can be one of the most satisfying. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted January 1, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 1, 2017 Certainly track building should be the top priority, but on the other hand variety keeps things interesting. Will see how it goes, at any rate I do need to stop working on stock and start working on the non working double slip (and should really wire up the single slip and give it a proper test as well... Happy new year to those who are still reading my ramblings, hope it's more productive than the last... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted January 1, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 1, 2017 (edited) New year been and gone, and I'm sat downstairs with the baby trying to give my wife some sleep...I thought it's about time I started summarising the loco fleet on here. Eventually this should be moved to page one and also contain links to the appropriate blog pages.....Express Passenger - all in G crest W unless stated. 6027 King Richard I - wiring issues prevent DCC fitting... 6013 King Henry VIII - as above 6000 King George V - to be fitted with decoder, new names, brass bell and lining removed 5029 Nunney Castle - need to make transfer to repaint nameplate mount 4085 Berkeley Castle - finished 5071 Spitfire - need to finish tender and fit new names 21c111 Tavistock - West Country for use on Plymouth Exeter M Set Star - 4025 to be purchased, will be without names in wartime black G crest W Mixed Traffic 4925 Eynsham Hall - need to hard wire decoder 6829 Burmington Grange - wartime black 6808 Beenham Grange - awaiting nameplate 1004 County of Somerset - chassis and tender build plus paint 9018 Dukedog - subsitute for bulldog, then for freight Bulldog Straight Frame - to buy, either Finney kit or wait for Bachmann, (if not available by layout completion then definitely the kit.) Bulldog Curved Frame - to buy as above Heavy Freight 2846 - 2800 Class 3817 - 2884 Class 7250 - 7200 Class 4292 - 4200 Class - Wartime Black, Still needs to be fitted with new chimney and lubricator cover - Running from St Blazey to Newton Abbot works for attention. 77285 - WD Austerity 2-8-0 Local Freight 5798 - 5700 class 43xx - Possibly Mitchell kit if i build a new chassis, else will wait for Bachmann (if not available by layout completion then definitely the kit.) Tanks 4526 - 4500 Class 4582 - 4575 Class 4133 - 5100 Class - needs cylinders rebuilding Looking at this I would say I have enough passenger and heavy freight locos for the moment. With the gaps tending towards the smaller freight locomotives. I think the addition of at least one 4300 is very important at the very least. The other gaps are more specific, with a 4700 for the milk or night parcels, and a pair of bulldogs to assist on Rattery bank. I also need to eventually add another 4575 having seen mention of a pair of 4565 powering one of the Plymouth Exeter stoppers... there will also likely be a SR N class added to work the freight equivalent of the route knowledge turn I have the WC for.I'd certainly welcome any further feedback as to where there are gaps. Edited January 1, 2017 by The Fatadder 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted January 1, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 1, 2017 You will need to change the 61xx to a 51xx as the 61s were used in the London division, unless you have a photo to prove otherwise. Castles were used quite a bit on the milk. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted January 1, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 1, 2017 (edited) You will need to change the 61xx to a 51xx as the 61s were used in the London division, unless you have a photo to prove otherwise. Castles were used quite a bit on the milk.That was already planned, the perils of writing a list like this so late that you make mistakes... I am right in thinking they are broadly speaking look the same. Thanks for the info on castles on the milk, will make a note on that in the database Edited January 1, 2017 by The Fatadder Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 1, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 1, 2017 The biggest gap is really the 'Bulldogs' (which you have mentioned) which were still at Newton right into the nationalised era and were there specifically for assisting train over the banks working right through to Plymouth on some trains (some assistant engines came off at Brent if the loads information is any guide). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 That was already planned, the perils of writing a list like this so late that you make mistakes... I am right in thinking they are broadly speaking look the same. Thanks for the info on castles on the milk, will make a note on that in the database My understanding is that, broadly, the 61xx are the same save for boiler pressure as 5160 onwards. Have to say, not the most logically numbered of GW classes. Happy to be corrected! David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Brinkly Posted January 1, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 1, 2017 I would add in a Manor loco Rich, they turned up on all sorts of short, medium and large trains down here. I'm sure Laira had a few allocated their during your period. Otherwise I think you're fairly spot on. Kind regards, Nick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted January 1, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 1, 2017 I would add in a Manor loco Rich, they turned up on all sorts of short, medium and large trains down here. I'm sure Laira had a few allocated their during your period. Otherwise I think you're fairly spot on. Kind regards, Nick. I think I am right in saying that Manors didnt get down to the SW sheds until the 50s (when they replaced the bulldogs), certainly the 1948 allocations on UKrail.info do not show any. Of course if someone has a photo of a Manor on the SW mainline in 1947 I'd love to be able to justify one. Of course it will end up in the same queue as the 43xx, with the Mitchell Kit I have in the to do pile possibly getting an OO chassis. My understanding is that, broadly, the 61xx are the same save for boiler pressure as 5160 onwards. Have to say, not the most logically numbered of GW classes. Happy to be corrected! David That was my understanding, the plan is to do 4133 which was a Newton Abbot loco. The biggest gap is really the 'Bulldogs' (which you have mentioned) which were still at Newton right into the nationalised era and were there specifically for assisting train over the banks working right through to Plymouth on some trains (some assistant engines came off at Brent if the loads information is any guide). Very interesting to have them coming off at Brent. I assume based on my reading of your previous postings on the topic, the workings which have the loco removed at Brent would be those which are stopping at the station anyway (whereas the expresses would continue on with the assisting engine until Plymouth.) 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Just an impression, gained from the Norman Lockett photographs, which span the 1934-1947 period nicely, but, apart from the advent of Granges and Sunshine stock, not an awful lot seemed to have changed between my period of interest and yours! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted January 1, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 1, 2017 Newton had a roster of nine of the 51xx class in my '46 allocations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted January 1, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 1, 2017 Just an impression, gained from the Norman Lockett photographs, which span the 1934-1947 period nicely, but, apart from the advent of Granges and Sunshine stock, not an awful lot seemed to have changed between my period of interest and yours! It does seem that way, its very interesting just how little did change on the Great Western over the post grouping period. Newton had a roster of nine of the 51xx class in my '46 allocations. Up to 11 by the end of the GWR, 4 in the 41 series and 7 in the 51 series. GWR numbering at its finest... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 1, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 1, 2017 I think I am right in saying that Manors didnt get down to the SW sheds until the 50s (when they replaced the bulldogs), certainly the 1948 allocations on UKrail.info do not show any. Of course if someone has a photo of a Manor on the SW mainline in 1947 I'd love to be able to justify one. Of course it will end up in the same queue as the 43xx, with the Mitchell Kit I have in the to do pile possibly getting an OO chassis. That was my understanding, the plan is to do 4133 which was a Newton Abbot loco. Very interesting to have them coming off at Brent. I assume based on my reading of your previous postings on the topic, the workings which have the loco removed at Brent would be those which are stopping at the station anyway (whereas the expresses would continue on with the assisting engine until Plymouth.) 'Manors' definitely seem to have been later arrivals - replacing the 'Bulldogs' as you say. The Brent engine moves might have been on advertised stops but equally some might have occurred when trains had to be assisted which didn't normally require assistance although on balance I think the assistant engine would probably have worked through. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted January 2, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 2, 2017 (edited) After my wife took the children to her parents for the day to finally give me my promised railway day, today I have spent a lot of time in the garage.The first job was to rip up the rails on the Exeter double slip, the logic being that it clearly cannot be repaired in situ I needs to get it lifted to motivate me to get on and try again. That however is a job for another day....I wanted to see if the rewire on King Henry VIII had done the job, so after plugging in a lenz good I put it to work. What a change, it now runs beautifully before I even start tweaking CVs. I am now going to have to unsolder the plug on King Richard I and resolder it hopefully to get the same impact. Fingers crossed they have sorted the issue on the 2016 Kings and King George V will be ok...After a spot of renaming it mentioned elsewhere it was time t get on with some real layout work. After rejecting the Avon bridge (it needs drawing properly in CAD which will probably wait until I'm next in Sevilla.). Along with rejecting the slip, (not a chance!) I remembered that the Exeter end of the mainline hadn't been wired up, neither had the single slip and point.Fortunately this end of the layout only has a reclining desk chair under it, which is perfect for leaning back to do wiring. If only itFitted everywhere...A couple of hours later the main is running up to the end, and while I'm missing a switch so the point can't be controlled, it was possible to finally run a train from the up platform, through the single slip into the down platform before going through the crossover back to the up main. This was first completed with a 42xx, before giving the king a spin. Both worked perfectly forward, but the king wasn't happy running tender first through the slip.There is one major problem, I tried to be clever and save on switches wiring both motors to one switch. It seems this has caused a problem with the wiring. When the point is set for the slip road it is fine. When set for the other option (ie yard to up main or down main to down main) it shorts, as only one vee is the correct polarity. Another reason to worry about the double slip!That just leaves the up loop (and point) not wired up now, the point motor is ready for install and the wires are soldered in place, it just needs con connecting up. Once that is done the only sensible thing to do is have another crack at the double slip. Though that said I might have a go redrawing first to correct some template errors.... Edited January 3, 2017 by The Fatadder Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 After my wife took the children to her parents for the day to finally give me my promised railway day, today I have spent a lot of time in the garage. The first job was to rip up the rails on the Exeter double slip, the logic being that it clearly cannot be repaired in situ I needs to get it lifted to motivate me to get on and try again. That however is a job for another day.... I wanted to see if the rewire on King Henry VIII had done the job, so after plugging in a lenz good I put it to work. What a change, it now runs beautifully before I even start tweaking CVs. I am now going to have to unsolder the plug on King Richard I and resolder it hopefully to get the same impact. Fingers crossed they have sorted the issue on the 2016 Kings and King George V will be ok... After a spot of renaming it mentioned elsewhere it was time t get on with some real layout work. After rejecting the Avon bridge (it needs drawing properly in CAD which will probably wait until I'm next in Sevilla.). Along with rejecting the slip, (not a chance!) I remembered that the Exeter end of the mainline hadn't been wired up, neither had the points on the single slip and point. Fortunately this end of the layout only has a reclining desk chair under it, which is perfect for leaning back to do wiring. If only it Fitted everywhere... A couple of hours later the main is running up to the end, and while I'm missing a switch so the point can't be controlled, it was possible to finally run a train from the up platform, through the single slip into the down platform before going through the crossover back to the up main. This was first completed with a 42xx, before giving the king a spin. Both worked perfectly forward, but the king wasn't happy running tender first through the slip. There is one major problem, I tried to be clever and save on switches wiring both motors to one switch. It seems this has caused a problem with the wiring. When the point is set for the slip road it is fine. When set for the other option (ie yard to up main or down main to down main) it shorts, as only one vee is the correct polarity. Another reason to worry about the double slip! That just leaves the up loop (and point) not wired up now, the point motor is ready for install and the wires are soldered in place, it just needs con connecting up. Once that is done the only sensible thing to do is have another crack at the double slip. Though that said I might have a go redrawing first to correct some template errors.... You won't get both the point motors to switch off one switch and get correct route setting and therefore polarity in all possible routes, without the use of a small diode matrix (A few IN4001s is all that is required). I'm going out shortly but if you need any help I'll be back later. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted January 3, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2017 Thanks for the offer, how exactly would this work? Thanks to Dagworth in my other single slip thread I now see where the issue is with the wiring for two switches (in that the right hand motor should power the left hand frog and vice versa.) But I struggle to see how a diode matrix is going to overcome the fact that the switch needs 3 positions (slip road (a to b) , a to d and c to b) (assuming the lettering is as below) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 3, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2017 What I would further suggest (in addition to what I've said about slip wiring in the other thread) is that you first need to work out which point ends work in concert with which other point ends. On the east end single slip this is dead easy as the two sets of slip switches were worked by two different levers - one in concert with the UP Main trailing point, to make a trailing crossover - and the other in concert with one set of switches in the double slip in at the east end of the branch platform to make another crossover. You might have greater difficulty thinking in that fashion about the double slips because on most of them the two sets of switches art each end were worked by two different levers. However the big advantage I find of thinking it out this way is that you inevitably come up with the only possible logical routes through the slips so you then know which side of which rails and crossings need to be of which polarity for that movement and arrange the switching to suit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 The configuration for a single slip implies 2 main settings. I is for it to act as normal diamond and the 2nd one is to go round the bend so to speak. Now of course there are four possible settings for the 2 motors, you need to insert the diodes to ensure the motors move to one of these two settings depending on which you need. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 3, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2017 The configuration for a single slip implies 2 main settings. I is for it to act as normal diamond and the 2nd one is to go round the bend so to speak. Now of course there are four possible settings for the 2 motors, you need to insert the diodes to ensure the motors move to one of these two settings depending on which you need. Depending on its position in a track layout a single slip actually serves three functions - 1. It acts as, in effect, a diamond crossing for the 'straight' road. 2. One pair of switch rails acts in concert with another pair of switch rails on another line to make a crossover (onto/off the straight road) 3. The other pair of switch rails, usually in cert with yet another pair on another line act as facility (normally released by the lever which operates the first pair of switches) yo make a crossover from the slip connection to a third line. Thus the east end single slip in the Down Main at Brent served as - 1. A through 'diamond crossing' road for the Down Main, 2. With lever 42 reversed it acted as a trailing crossover between the Up & Down Mains, 3.(With lever 42 reversed which in turn released lever 40) it provided the slip connection from the Up Main to/from the Branch Platform and sidings with either lever 37 or 39 reverse (which were almost certain to have been released by 40). It was not unknown but it was relatively uncommon, especially on older frames it appears, on the Western for the same lever to operate the switches at both ends of a single slip - it all depended on the track layout and movements which took place Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 (edited) Electrically there are three settings of the blades that need to work, you either use two switches and try and remember the diamond setting or use a rotrary switch (for solenoid operation 3 studs and simple diode matrix routing is easier). More complicated routing is possible using more diodes and rotary switches/push buttons as you wish. However as you are DCC wiring for the track, possibly the simplest solution is to use a Hex Frog Juicer, otherwise it's two switches and having to remember which way the blades need to be set, which isn't immediately obvious. Edited January 4, 2017 by Stephen Freeman Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted January 4, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2017 (edited) The control panel for Brent uses a batch of Rapid Electronics switches that were originally fitted to Blackcombe Torr, this gave enough switches for all bar one point on the mainline (but none of the points on the yard.)Late last year I ordered the remaining switches for the scenic section from Rapid, but clearly ordered the wrong size as the parts that arrived were about half the size of the previous ones. They were also a lot more susceptible to heat, with the first switch loosing a connection due to melting as I soldered on the wires! These have now been put to one side, and will probably be used on the fiddleyard panel (assuming I havent given up and switched to DCC points by that stage.)The net result of this is that no more wiring can be done until my order arrives from Rapid with the correct switches, at which point the Slip will be wired for 2 switch operation.I have to say that the more work I do wiring in points and the bigger the resulting mess of wiring under the layout becomes, the more tempting DCC operation is for points. The downside is that if I go down this route I still need to have switches, so thats a lot more £££ to spend on something like the DCC Concepts control panel.Anyway,So last nights work concentrated on another area of the layout, the bridge over the Avon. The aim is to try and get this area of the layout looking a bit more complete, it would be nice to have a section of the layout semi scenic'd to give a better photo backdrop for rollingstock projects...As such I have made a start on building the bridge over the Avon.Given the changes I have made to the prototype's track alignment in this part of the layout, a true to scale model will not work. Instead I have tried to build something which gives a flavour of the prototype without looking too out of place. Working from the series of photos I took of the real thing back in November, along with some dimensions of the hole in the layout, I have drawn up a suitable bridge in CAD.From this a template was stuck onto some 5mm hardboard which was then cut to the basic shape of the bridge. (This is approximately 25mm taller than the bridge will be in order to sink the base into the ground (giving depth to the river banks). The wooden sub structure in position, the hardboard base needs attaching on the right hand side as it is sagging somewhat (hence the pink foam holding the right hand section of bridge in position. Once the arches were cut out of the wood, a sheet of 40 thou plasticard was glued (evostick) to cover the whole bridge and left to dry prior to cutting out the arch. Tonight phase 2 is to cut and fit the inner walls / arch and prepare to clad in embossed plastic sheet. There is also the inner arch which will need to be added (the bridge over the Avon is really 3 bridges, the original single arch, a double arch behind it, and then a wooden extension sticking out of the far side. The plasticard glued in position, giving an impression of the amount that will be buried. On the right hand section the bank will be another 10-15mm higher still with a gradual slope down towards the back of the layout. The inner arch will be formed purely out of plasticard and glued in place before the front arch is attached to the board. The rear extension will just be glued to the top of the baseboard (as it will not be visible from below.)Just need to get some block stone plastic sheet now....Putting the basic formers in place for the bridge does highlight an issue with the baseboard. the 4 by 1 bracket that supports the track bed is too close to the bridge (resulting in too steep a bank). I think a bit of careful work with a saw to put a 45 degree angle on the top section will be a big help... Edited January 4, 2017 by The Fatadder 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold checkrail Posted January 4, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2017 I have to say that the more work I do wiring in points and the bigger the resulting mess of wiring under the layout becomes, the more tempting DCC operation is for points. The downside is that if I go down this route I still need to have switches, so thats a lot more £££ to spend on something like the DCC Concepts control panel. I have to say that I'm really pleased with DCC control of points on Stoke Courtenay, especially with the potential for route setting. My points are all operated by Cobalt digital point motors with integral accessory decoder and built in crossing polarity change, via my Prodigy Advance 2 handheld unit (now wireless as from 4 days ago). For instance, selecting route '3' and pressing one button will switch 6 points from the down main (Plymouth end) to the yard loop, including the single slip, enabling, say, a trip goods to be set back into the yard. All this is done on the handset with one hand, as is driving the train of course. I love the simplicity and reliability of it all. I know it wouldn't suit everyone. Understandably lots of people like a real control panel with banks of switches, or better still, levers. But like many little boys I always wanted to be an engine driver - don't ever recall wanting to be a signalman! This is what I have stuck to the fascia of my layout instead of a control panel (though I remember most of them without looking by now): DCC routes.doc John C. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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