Inspired by Brent June 1947

[The Fatadder]

With regard to track problems, there are a number of reasons that cause problems, I can't remember what track standards you are using, if you could remind me, we could start working through them for possible causes.

 

Track is built in OO, using the standard C&L gauges, Templot track plan and Exactoscale components. All vees and switch rails were made by me rather than bought in.

 

 

Is it a lot of different vehicles at the same location(s)?

Do these vehicles have the same style of wheels?

Is it one vehicle at the same location(s)?

Is it none of the above?

 

There are a couple of issues that I am aware of, but probably a lot more to come.

What I was hoping to find is a sort of step by step fault finding guide (along the lines of the sort of thing you find on a troubleshooting page for a tech issue. The issues are happening a bit randomly depending on speed and direction, with both Bachmann and Hornby locomotives. Testing has encompassed a Grange, Castle, King, WD 280 and 4575.

 

The first issue is a wobble as a train passes through the frog, it almost looks like a wheel is riding up onto the outer check rail.

 

On one point (possibly connected with the above), I am frequently encountering stalls as it passes over the point. I have checked all rails are live (they are) and there is no voltage drop.

 

The third issue is that in a couple of places locos will run the wrong way through a switch

 

Finally my LNER extra long CCV has a tendency to derail in a fair few places. This one I have a fairly good idea as to how to fix, it is far too long wheel base to have a solid chassis so I am going to chop off the w-irons and spring it.

 

I think I need to start keeping a log of all derailments, where they occur, direction of travel and which loco was involved.

[Stephen Freeman]

Good Morning,

You have probably fallen foul of the mess of standards(?) that is 00. As far as I know the standard C&L gauges are to a finer standard than the old BRSMB, so it is quite conceivable that some of the RTR models will ride up on check rails etc. For wrong direction running - surely it must be the wiring.

 

To fix the check rail issue, you could try opening them up by 0.25mm or re-wheel the RTR stuff. Of course what you should of done is to have built the layout to either EM or P4, but you would still have had to re-wheel, or build it to 4-SF (16.2mm), re-wheel nothing and get EM quality running (see Stoke Courtenay).

Edited June 27, 2017 by Stephen Freeman

[The Fatadder]

There was me thinking that building in OO was going to be easier from a running point of view…..

 

I do rather wish that I had spent a little more time trying to understand OOSF before rejecting it out of hand, at the time I couldn’t see past the narrowing of the gauge.

 

When I mention wrong direction running, I mean deliberately running a loco in the up direction on the down mainline for example (so a situation which will rarely happen)

 

I will have a look at one of the troublesome points and see if easing out the check rail will help. I hope that this issue is confined to the outer check rails and not the elbow checks next to the vee (which will be a hell of a lot more difficult to modify)

 

 

I guess I should also start checking the back to back of the locos involved. I have the C&L B2B gauge, but in the past have always sorted the B2B before installing wheels. How are you supposed to use it to check a RTR model on which the wheels are already in situ?

[St Enodoc]

(if anyone reading has a spare Ratio cattle dock pair of gates / hinges they wouldnt mind parting with please drop me a pm.)

Rich, I might be able to help with the gate. I'll have a look at the weekend when I am back home.

[The Fatadder]

Rich, I might be able to help with the gate. I'll have a look at the weekend when I am back home.

Thanks for looking, would be most appreciated. 

[Siberian Snooper]

There was me thinking that building in OO was going to be easier from a running point of view…..

I do rather wish that I had spent a little more time trying to understand OOSF before rejecting it out of hand, at the time I couldn’t see past the narrowing of the gauge.

When I mention wrong direction running, I mean deliberately running a loco in the up direction on the down mainline for example (so a situation which will rarely happen)

I will have a look at one of the troublesome points and see if easing out the check rail will help. I hope that this issue is confined to the outer check rails and not the elbow checks next to the vee (which will be a hell of a lot more difficult to modify)

I guess I should also start checking the back to back of the locos involved. I have the C&L B2B gauge, but in the past have always sorted the B2B before installing wheels. How are you supposed to use it to check a RTR model on which the wheels are already in situ?

I use a vernier calipers to measure the back too back, I use 14.5 mm as my standard and also works for 00sf. I would suggest moving the check rail only, in the first instance as moving the wing rails will cause another set of problems. Elbow checks should be ok as long as the gauge is correct.

 

Try putting a wheelset on the track and blowing it along areas of concern, to see how it behaves. Make sure that the btb is correct first.

 

Wheels going the wrong way through a facing turnout strikes me as possibly not enough gap between the stock rail and the switch rail, Martin Wynne, of Templot fame recommends using a 20p piece to gauge the switch tips in 00.

 

I will continue to scratch me head for further ideas.

 

 

 

The LNER CCT has a very long wheelbase, I wouldn't try and put around curves of less than 3 foot unless it was very well weighted.

[Stephen Freeman]

Ah. Now I understand what you mean about the wrong way through the blades, yes 20p piece should do the trick, use it myself.

[The Fatadder]

Thanks,

Will dig out the calipers and do some checking, likewise I like the sound of the 20p test.

 

For the cct, my prevailing radius of curves were planned with 3ft minimum, though there might be the odd fiddleyard point which is tight. I will try hoping the weight, and then look at the suspension. I was very supprised that Hornby made it fully solid rather than going for the rotating wiron that Bachmann have used on lwb stock.

[The Fatadder]

Re the 20p test,

 

I assume the gap between switch rail and outer rail should be the thickness of the 20p?

[Stephen Freeman]

Re the 20p test,

 

I assume the gap between switch rail and outer rail should be the thickness of the 20p?

Yes

[The Fatadder]

Thanks for the advice,

 

A couple of hours in the garage fault finding this evening has already shown up results.  Very few points would accept the 20p, although some of those worked perfectly fine with the slightly narrower gap (set with the track gauge).  Of the ones which were causing problems, widening the gap has solved the issue (so far) with two exceptions.  

 

All testing was completed with a Hornby Grange, so the next step will be testing with a Bachmann loco along with running a couple of 2-8-0s through it.  Of course that requires me to get 3812 and 77791 running smoothly first (hence why the latter has spent the evening running on the rolling road.)

 

The two issues which remain after this initial testing are the Exeter double slip (in one direction) and one point in the fiddleyard.  Starting with the slip there is an issue with the elbow check rails which are fractionally higher than the rail connecting with them.  There may also be a fractional alignment issue here as well.  I think there is also an issue with the gap between the switch rails here, but I have a feeling it is being caused by the check rail issue.   Given how well the Plymouth double slip is working I am giving serious thought to completely dismantling the Exeter one and rebuilding it...

 

The other issue at the fiddleyard is more confusing, the gaps are fine but it still rides up onto the switch rail.  I think this is likely down to the very shallow gradient of the point (and probably a switch rail which is not fully to profile).  Now my gut feeling here is that I should crack out the dremel and a grinding disk and reprofile it...

I have already been playing with longer check rails to attempt to guide the axles to where I want them without success....

 

In terms of untested track, I haven't completed rectification work on the connection between up and down main at the Plymouth end (which has a known issue with a wobble / loss of power) and haven't tested the down main through the slip or the down main to Kingsbridge branch connection.  This will need to be the next session.

 

Finally a little loco repair work.  I have been struggling to understand why my Star wouldnt work for some time. After taking the body off and testing the chassis (which ran fine) I eventually discovered that the speedo drive was out of alignment and blocking the rear driver.  Now that is fixed it runs nice and smooth now.

[Siberian Snooper]

Glad to hear that you're having some success, track building certainly has its moments, but is highly satisfying when it all comes right. The more you do the easier it becomes, as the techniques are mastered.

[The Fatadder]

Glad to hear that you're having some success, track building certainly has its moments, but is highly satisfying when it all comes right. The more you do the easier it becomes, as the techniques are mastered.

To a degree that is the problem, as I have found with Brent by the time you peak on the track building learning curve you have pretty much finished the layout.  Certainly the next time I build a large project I will start by building the fiddleyard (and will use the same method as for the scenic points).  That way the initial learning is taken care building the stuff which wont be seen.

 

It is why I am giving serious thought to replacing the Exeter slip as I certainly think I could do a better job now.   Will try removing and replacing the elbow check rails first, but if that doesnt resolve the issue a rebuild is the only sensible option I think...

[St Enodoc]

Thanks for the advice,

 

A couple of hours in the garage fault finding this evening has already shown up results.  Very few points would accept the 20p, although some of those worked perfectly fine with the slightly narrower gap (set with the track gauge).  Of the ones which were causing problems, widening the gap has solved the issue (so far) with two exceptions.  

 

All testing was completed with a Hornby Grange, so the next step will be testing with a Bachmann loco along with running a couple of 2-8-0s through it.  Of course that requires me to get 3812 and 77791 running smoothly first (hence why the latter has spent the evening running on the rolling road.)

 

The two issues which remain after this initial testing are the Exeter double slip (in one direction) and one point in the fiddleyard.  Starting with the slip there is an issue with the elbow check rails which are fractionally higher than the rail connecting with them.  There may also be a fractional alignment issue here as well.  I think there is also an issue with the gap between the switch rails here, but I have a feeling it is being caused by the check rail issue.   Given how well the Plymouth double slip is working I am giving serious thought to completely dismantling the Exeter one and rebuilding it...

 

The other issue at the fiddleyard is more confusing, the gaps are fine but it still rides up onto the switch rail.  I think this is likely down to the very shallow gradient of the point (and probably a switch rail which is not fully to profile).  Now my gut feeling here is that I should crack out the dremel and a grinding disk and reprofile it...

I have already been playing with longer check rails to attempt to guide the axles to where I want them without success....

 

In terms of untested track, I haven't completed rectification work on the connection between up and down main at the Plymouth end (which has a known issue with a wobble / loss of power) and haven't tested the down main through the slip or the down main to Kingsbridge branch connection.  This will need to be the next session.

 

Finally a little loco repair work.  I have been struggling to understand why my Star wouldnt work for some time. After taking the body off and testing the chassis (which ran fine) I eventually discovered that the speedo drive was out of alignment and blocking the rear driver.  Now that is fixed it runs nice and smooth now.

A few thoughts Rich.

 

CCT - does it run OK on its own and only derail in a train? On my long wheelbase 4-wheel vans I have made sure that the couplings flex as this was what caused problems.

 

20p test - we don't have them down here (!) but I always go for a slightly bigger gap than that. Visually worse, but more reliable. I use SMP sleepers/timbers that are 1.2 mm thick. My switch gaps are set up with two sleepers i.e. 2.4 mm.

 

Elbow check rails - in my limited experience these seem to be the most critical part of the slip as there is little room for error in the region of the elbows and closure rails. As you know I still need to do more fettling on mine. If they are too high, just file them down. I always run a large flat file (gently) over all my points before using them.

 

Riding up on switch rail - make sure the top corner of the switch tip is rounded off slightly to give the wheels a smooth run on to the switch.

 

Keep us up to date on progress - it is very helpful to share these experiences.

[The Fatadder]

A few thoughts Rich.

 

CCT - does it run OK on its own and only derail in a train? On my long wheelbase 4-wheel vans I have made sure that the couplings flex as this was what caused problems.

 

20p test - we don't have them down here (!) but I always go for a slightly bigger gap than that. Visually worse, but more reliable. I use SMP sleepers/timbers that are 1.2 mm thick. My switch gaps are set up with two sleepers i.e. 2.4 mm.

 

Elbow check rails - in my limited experience these seem to be the most critical part of the slip as there is little room for error in the region of the elbows and closure rails. As you know I still need to do more fettling on mine. If they are too high, just file them down. I always run a large flat file (gently) over all my points before using them.

 

Riding up on switch rail - make sure the top corner of the switch tip is rounded off slightly to give the wheels a smooth run on to the switch.

 

Keep us up to date on progress - it is very helpful to share these experiences.

Re the CCT, I havent really give it a huge amount of testing (mostly because it tends to derail before it leaves the fiddleyard.  Some testing on its own it handles ok, but I guess it needs to have a lot more testing in real use.  Though to be honest I think thats probably best left until the track is running more reliably.  Coupling sounds quite plausible.  this van is definitely going to be fitted with sprung buffers before it enters use properly as I suspect it will have buffer locking issues once fitted with screwlinks...

 

Thats a good point re the rounding of the switch tip, I spotted (and rectified) one of these earlier.  So logically if there is one there is likely to be more.  I will add that to the check list...

 

Will see what I can do with the elbow rails, though its probably going to have to wait a couple of days now that the wife and children have returned from their holiday.  On the plus side I can get rid of the inlaw's pets in the morning!  

[The Fatadder]

Other than stupidly managing to order an N gauge cattle dock rather than an OO one from Gaugemaster via Amazon which arrived today (and I am now in the process of trying to get the correct kit...) 

Tonight I have been working on more track repairs, in particular I have started to work on the Exeter double slip.  As previously mentioned, the issue here is that on one route there are derailments at both vees.  Further testing with a Castle bogie, showed the wheels riding up at the check rail at the same point each time.  The route cause of the problem was a couple of issues with the design of the elbow check rails, which in turn was causing the wheel to rise up on the oppersit outer check rail.

 

This was significantly compounded on the station side by a hight differential between the frog and the switch rail.  The soloution was to unsolder the rails, and remove the copper clad baseplates.  Then solder up a complete replacement assambally working on a new templot drawing, before gluing back into position.  After a little fettling to the final height, the running issue appears to have been resolved (it has yet to have a loco ran over the problem area, but worked perfectly with the Castle bogie and with a Centenary coach.)

 

The check rail at the other side had a similar profile issue, however in this case it was level with the approach rail.  This time it was possible to unsolder one joint and then reprofile the angle to correct the alignment.  Again it passed the initial testing, and hopefully will be ok when live testing starts tomorrow.

 

With that done, attention has moved to discovering where else there is the same problem.  So far I have identified on elbow check on both the other double slip and the single slip.  Both of which need to be fixed before I resume testing. 

[The Fatadder]

A week in Sevilla for work followed by a weekend in Devon has resulted in minimal opportunity to work on Brent. So far the only progress has been returning the second cattle dock to gaugemaster for replacement with one in 4mm scale. Along with placing an order with LMS for some buffer stops.

 

These were waiting for me when I got home today and are now ready for building / installation on the layout. I'm not 100% sure of the prototype (and no doubt will be proved wrong after building) but I think 3 sidings (off the slip in the plymouth direction, straight through goods shed and the Plymouth end of the bottom siding all end in raised loading docks. As such I have used the short version, for the other end of the bottom siding I have used the standard version.

I may be wrong but I don't believe there is a buffer stop for the gravel run off the catch point on the station end of the up goods loop.

 

Finally another loco has been added, with a third 4500 class (dcc fitted) which is intended for use on the mainline only in addition to the 2 locos allocated to the branch. This will be getting a respray into wartime black once it arrives... An order was also placed with model railways direct for a pair of the new Hornby Toads which appear to be due for delivery very soon. In the mean time I have a lot of P4 wagons which need retrofitting with OO wheels and installation of couplings to get a couple of token freight formations set up...

 

All being well I will get outside for a bit this evening and make a start on those buffers....

 

One other topic upon which I would value some advice.

 

I have now found some good photos of the cattle dock. It confirms that the goodshed point should be off the runaround loop not the track to the bottom siding. This means that my cattledock is located one point length to the left of the true location (as per the previous photos) which will result in too big a gap between the no2 dock and the bridge.

So will be interested to hear (once the other dock is in place) if the gap looks hugely wrong or if I should be thinking about ripping out the point and replacing in the correct position.

Edited July 9, 2017 by The Fatadder

[St Enodoc]

A week in Sevilla for work followed by a weekend in Devon has resulted in minimal opportunity to work on Brent. So far the only progress has been returning the second cattle dock to gaugemaster for replacement with one in 4mm scale. Along with placing an order with LMS for some buffer stops.

 

These were waiting for me when I got home today and are now ready for building / installation on the layout. I'm not 100% sure of the prototype (and no doubt will be proved wrong after building) but I think 3 sidings (off the slip in the plymouth direction, straight through goods shed and the Plymouth end of the bottom siding all end in raised loading docks. As such I have used the short version, for the other end of the bottom siding I have used the standard version.

I may be wrong but I don't believe there is a buffer stop for the gravel run off the catch point on the station end of the up goods loop.

 

Finally another loco has been added, with a third 4500 class (dcc fitted) which is intended for use on the mainline only in addition to the 2 locos allocated to the branch. This will be getting a respray into wartime black once it arrives... An order was also placed with model railways direct for a pair of the new Hornby Toads which appear to be due for delivery very soon. In the mean time I have a lot of P4 wagons which need retrofitting with OO wheels and installation of couplings to get a couple of token freight formations set up...

 

All being well I will get outside for a bit this evening and make a start on those buffers....

 

One other topic upon which I would value some advice.

 

I have now found some good photos of the cattle dock. It confirms that the goodshed point should be off the runaround loop not the track to the bottom siding. This means that my cattledock is located one point length to the left of the true location (as per the previous photos) which will result in too big a gap between the no2 dock and the bridge.

So will be interested to hear (once the other dock is in place) if the gap looks hugely wrong or if I should be thinking about ripping out the point and replacing in the correct position.

Those buffer stop kits look the business. In the past I've used the Mainly Trains/Iain Rice ones, but I think some of Dave's will be on order for Porthmellyn Road.

[The Fatadder]

Those buffer stop kits look the business. In the past I've used the Mainly Trains/Iain Rice ones, but I think some of Dave's will be on order for Porthmellyn Road.

I started putting one together last night and it goes together as well as it looks. I do now need to cut back some rail to assist in installation as they are longer than I expected.

 

I made more process on planning scenics last night, trying to work out the various heights for different parts of the layout (and how I'm going to make them. I have decided this will be the focus of work while I continue with track testing. Hopefully tonight I might manage to make a start cutting the wooden formers to size

[St Enodoc]

I started putting one together last night and it goes together as well as it looks. I do now need to cut back some rail to assist in installation as they are longer than I expected.

 

I made more process on planning scenics last night, trying to work out the various heights for different parts of the layout (and how I'm going to make them. I have decided this will be the focus of work while I continue with track testing. Hopefully tonight I might manage to make a start cutting the wooden formers to size

That sounds good Rich. By the way, I haven't forgotten the cattle dock gates - the box of leftover parts wasn't where I thought it was so I couldn't find it at the weekend. I'll have a deeper dive as soon as I can.

[The Fatadder]

That sounds good Rich. By the way, I haven't forgotten the cattle dock gates - the box of leftover parts wasn't where I thought it was so I couldn't find it at the weekend. I'll have a deeper dive as soon as I can.

Thanks again for looking,

I have a feeling that the second kit I have ordered only needs to be built as a 2 pen which will actually give me enough left over to complete the first one. I just need to find the photo looking down on the right hand dock to confirm that it definitely had two rather than three pens.

[The Fatadder]

Slowly but surely the Avon bridge is nearing completion, I started off by picking out various blocks in different colours of dark grey paint. This was then covered by a mixture of Humbrol dark sand (circa 1994) roughly mixed with BR Falcon Grey.

The paint was very roughly applied over the whole side as a thin coat, which results in paint collecting in the mortar lines appearing darker than the stone, while the stone blocks vary in colour. The final step now is to go back over the stones picking out a lot more individual stones in different colours.

 

The engineers blue bricks making up the retaining wall was a bit of a disaster, I cant remember which paint I used on my brick signal box as an alternative to the true phoenix paints colour (other than it was a fantastic match). Instead I tried to mix greys and blues to get something resembling the correct colour, the end result looks awful so I will need to start again. Sadly since the Yate model shop closed, there is nowhere local from which I can source Phoenix (or Railmatch) paints. Tonight my plan is to experiment with various greys until I find the one I have used previously…

 

The insides of the arches were painted dark grey (again I think I used BR Falcon Grey), it now needs some heavy weathering to finish it off.

 

At this point I realised that I had ran out of SE Finecast embossed stone when building the inner walls, so I need to get over to Antics in Stonehouse to buy a couple more sheets. The arches for the right hand spans cannot be added until this is in place, and will be painted prior to fitting.

 

 

Moving back to the garage it was time to make a start on building the Lanarkshire Model Supplies buffer stops. I was very impressed with the quality of the castings, which were quickly cleaned up ready for assembly. The parts were glued together with superglue, ensuring that the cross beam / stay were protected with a film of tissue paper superglued in place as an insulator (and checking with a millimetre to ensure the end result was fully isolated.

 

All four are now ready for painting and installation onto the layout. The plan for paint is to prime and spray black prior to installation, at which point it will be weathered along with the rest of the track. Some modification is needed to reduce the rail length in the sidings, in order to clear the rails (in addition to the fitting of extra sleepers to support the rear end of the beam.

[The Fatadder]

Just posted this on Robins thread, but I think for compleation it's worth including here as well.

 

Thoughts on brake vans / freight through Brent

 

So I have finally found a little time to dive into my working timetable to look at freight operations.

 

In total (up and down) there are 15 different departure points (plus Kingsbridge), a few of which I believe would have vans from elsewhere (the return Ivybridge for example) and a couple have general city names rather than specific yards (eg London), I'm also not clear why some were labled as Laira and others as Tavistock Junction for example.

 

By far the most common start point unsurprisingly is Tavistock Junction (closely followed by Newton Abbot) from there are only one or two trains from each location (shown on the below table).

 

Breaking the details down further into through trains and stopping trains vs through trains, the former is dominated by services from Newton Abbot, Bristol and Tavy Junct.

While for Through trains Newton Abbot, Tavy Junct and London come top.

 

 

From this logic eventually (and ignoring the current layouts fiddleyard capacity) I think a good mixture would be 1 Kingsbridge van (AA3 if I remember rightly), 2 Newton Abbot (at least one of which needs to be an AA13), one (AA1) Stoke Gifford (given I spent some time living there), finally the two Hornby AA15s for Tavistock Junction and Rodgerstone (the latter out of laziness)

 

Now someone will come and tell me that post war the majority of vans didn’t have a location painted on…..

[Siberian Snooper]

Laira was also a sorting yard,more or less on the site of the HST siding and shed is. I think the major sorting siding are where the vans were based and thus named. I do stand to be corrected if this assumption is incorrect.

[The Fatadder]

Laira was also a sorting yard,more or less on the site of the HST siding and shed is. I think the major sorting siding are where the vans were based and thus named. I do stand to be corrected if this assumption is incorrect.

thanks, makes a lot of sense and I would assume from a brake van perspective it would have a van returning from the destination.

 

Today I received an order from gaugemaster with the replacement cattle dock and so far have put together the basic base ready for adding the fence.

I have also got 4547 while 4298 is now fitted with a decoder.

Edited July 14, 2017 by The Fatadder