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Inspired by Brent June 1947


The Fatadder
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A slow evenings work tonight, arriving home from work late after wasting half an hour at Sharpness Docks hoping to see Tornado pass on the other side of the river (before finding out from realtime trains via the Dean Forrest Railways Facebook page that t was delayed by an hour!)

 

Again the focus has been on track, another point has had the basic parts added (vee and outer rails) which enabled the fitting of another siding. This one is proving very difficult to locate given the change that was necessary on the double slip (and hence the headshunt being in the wrong place. Based on photos there is a raised platform between the middle siding and headshunt (the latter often being used to dump a horse box). However on my model the headshunt goes much further so the middle wiring has also had to be lengthened.

 

I can't find a prototype photo showing the area at the moment so there's a lot of guess work...

 

The other area to see work is the loop, with the flex track assembled and test fitted. The revised alignment looks a lot better and provides a better clearance to the goods shed. However I want to build and fit the loop point vee before I glue this in place, the curved tail of the loop point is formed from the same length as part of the loop in order to maintain the curve.

 

Finally I've drawn on the trap points locations, all 4 of which are integrated into the middle of points. My plan is to model all in the closed position adding short lengths of rail soldered to the point in appropriate places. Once the rest of the track is down and the points are tested I will add them...

 

That's likely to be it for a couple of weeks, as we will be in Devon for the weekend and I am in the Sevilla office next week. When I get back I hope to have received orders from PDK, Narrow Planet and EBay (with the parts for KGV/4292, numbers for the rest of the fleet and a Hornby Star to spray black as 4025 respectively. So I suspect that it's going to be time for a spot of loco modelling.

 

I have also noticed that it's almost a year since I drew up the goods shed, so feel like I really ought to get on and start building it...

You're doing the same as I do with the dummy trap points Rich. If you hadn't mentioned it I don't think anyone (except Mike the Stationmaster) would have noticed!

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  • RMweb Gold

A messy layout is a happy layout.. Please don't tidy, as you say, as waste of time. I'm much like you in that I get very small pockets of time. If I tidied each time I'd get 10mins instead of a massive 30!

A bit of tidying is certainly needed, last night I came far too close to touching a Hawksworth coach with a brush ladened with MEK....

 

The Kings and 42xx would benefit from being moved to the indoor modelling room, maybe that will see them finished...

 

The real tidying is needed under the layout, as I need to sort out a table under the fiddle yard at the garage door end in order to set up my spray booth. Plus sort out access under the plymouth end of he layout to enable point motor fitting and wiring. I want to be ready for my week in June when I have the house to myself in order to maximise time.....

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I have been putting a little more thought into the design of the trap/catch points (from hence described as trap because I can never remember the difference...)

Looking at photos the trap protects the loop and goods shed lines at each end, but as far as I can tell there is nothing on any of the other sidings. (If anyone can confirm this from the track plan, I would be very grateful.)

post-54-0-87709400-1488448713.jpg

 

In both cases it consists of one moving rail on the yard side integrated into the middle of the point (as per the below diagram).

 

post-54-0-56642100-1488448723_thumb.jpg

 

Dummy slide chairs will be added on the inside of the rail, while the outside will be formed from a short length of rail with an appropriate angle filed onto one end and soldered to the track. As usual Exctoscale chairs will complete it.

(Which reminds me that I really ought to head over to C&L this afternoon to buy some more, as I ran out last night.)

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I have been putting a little more thought into the design of the trap/catch points (from hence described as trap because I can never remember the difference...)

Looking at photos the trap protects the loop and goods shed lines at each end, but as far as I can tell there is nothing on any of the other sidings. (If anyone can confirm this from the track plan, I would be very grateful.)

attachicon.gifIMG_1445.JPG

 

In both cases it consists of one moving rail on the yard side integrated into the middle of the point (as per the below diagram).

 

attachicon.gifIMG_1446.JPG

 

Dummy slide chairs will be added on the inside of the rail, while the outside will be formed from a short length of rail with an appropriate angle filed onto one end and soldered to the track. As usual Exctoscale chairs will complete it.

(Which reminds me that I really ought to head over to C&L this afternoon to buy some more, as I ran out last night.)

Rich, these are shown on the Signalling Record Society SB diagrams for both 1896 and 1963. On the 1963 diagram they are points 29A, 31A, 37A and 40A.

 

The 1963 diagram also shows traps at: the exit of the Up Loop (19B); the exit from the short spur by the overbridge at the Down end back across the double slip (28); and the exit from the Down Loop towards the Branch (52B). There is also a set of spring-operated traps at the entrance to the Up Loop and the entrance to the Down Loop

 

These are shown on the SRS website at http://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwf/S934.htm. Although the diagram on the web page is only a low-resolution version you should be able to see them clearly enough.

 

Edit - pressed 'post' too soon!

Edited by St Enodoc
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Thanks

 

Looking at the low resolution version of the 1963 diagram, I think it's the short siding trap that I am missing, and annoyingly this is just out of shot on every photo I have seen. Does anyone know what type it should be? I'm assuming it would be located just befor the ground signal?

 

 

I'm guessing the protection of the up loop is the point to the down loop set straight on and the short track length ending in a gravel trap

 

The down loop trap I assume is not needed as I have no down loop (well it's sort of there. If only about a foot long before joining the down main at the Exeter end.

 

Was there one more that you were going to mention at the end there?

 

One more question I have at the moment, the bottom siding has a short length to the right (towards the cattle dock / main road) which was removed by the 1963 drawing.

What was it for and how should it be used?

 

I haven't seen any photos showing that area clearly...

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52B is the most awkward one of the lot as all the published signalling diagrams misrepresent its actual position by showing it between the turnout from the Down Loop towards the Down Main and the connection between the Down Loop and the Branch.  There is a rather good photo in Robert Carroll's collection which shows that in fact it is somewhere else - slap bang in the middle of the turnout from the Down Loop to the Down Main and is a single tongue trap.

 

Similarly traps 29 & 31 show up on at least one photo as not being where they are shown on various published diagrams but in reality in a similar arrangement to the one on the engine shed roads at Bodmin General which puts them within no. 31 points akin to teh arrangement you illustrated but the opposite way round at the west end  - there is a good photo of this available for sale on the 'net - these links might work

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Brent-Railway-Station-Photo-Wrangton-to-Totnes-and-Kingsbridge-Lines-GWR-9-/262483740618

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Brent-Railway-Station-Photo-Wrangton-to-Totnes-and-Kingsbridge-Lines-GWR-22/262483740616?_trksid=p2047675.c100623.m-1&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D41397%26meid%3D56f377865dc34e3cadef0d7e525de171%26pid%3D100623%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26mehot%3Dlo%26sd%3D262483740618

 

Most of the traps do appear in photos except the ones at the two loop entrances and photos appear to suggest that even those installed relatively late (e.g. the Down Loop) were all single tongue  although I would have expected the exit from the Up Loop to be double tongue

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Thanks

 

Looking at the low resolution version of the 1963 diagram, I think it's the short siding trap that I am missing, and annoyingly this is just out of shot on every photo I have seen. Does anyone know what type it should be? I'm assuming it would be located just befor the ground signal?

 

 

I'm guessing the protection of the up loop is the point to the down loop set straight on and the short track length ending in a gravel trap

 

The down loop trap I assume is not needed as I have no down loop (well it's sort of there. If only about a foot long before joining the down main at the Exeter end.

 

Was there one more that you were going to mention at the end there?

 

One more question I have at the moment, the bottom siding has a short length to the right (towards the cattle dock / main road) which was removed by the 1963 drawing.

What was it for and how should it be used?

 

I haven't seen any photos showing that area clearly...

I'm a little confused by your reference to the Up Loop (highlighted in bold) as it was to the west of the west end overbridge while the Down Loop was to the east of the east end overbridge - the exit protection of the UP Loop I would have expected to be a double tongue trap  but see my comments above

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Will try and dig out a photo later to show exactly what I mean, but at the end of the loop is a point joining to the facing point on he up main. The straight on route on this continues straight into a large pile of sand / ballast

 

The best photo showing it was shown to me by another modeller of Brent and I do it have a copy, but I have seen another image showing the point part of it.

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Right, I have cropped small extracts of a couple of photos (and I am afraid I do not know the sources, so if they are yours and would like them to be removed or credited to you please let me know and I will adjust). In both cases the loco is on the Up Main.

post-54-0-97739000-1488464711.jpg

 

This is the Brent end of the goods loop, or are we talking about the Plymouth end of the loop? Again the signal box diagram shows a trap at the end of the loop but I am struggling to make it out where it is in this BR era photo.

Unless it is the dark lump indicated by the red arrow?

post-54-0-53932600-1488464724.jpg

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Right, I have cropped small extracts of a couple of photos (and I am afraid I do not know the sources, so if they are yours and would like them to be removed or credited to you please let me know and I will adjust). In both cases the loco is on the Up Main.

attachicon.gifIMG_1447.JPG

 

This is the Brent end of the goods loop, or are we talking about the Plymouth end of the loop? Again the signal box diagram shows a trap at the end of the loop but I am struggling to make it out where it is in this BR era photo.

Unless it is the dark lump indicated by the red arrow?

attachicon.gifIMG_1448.JPG

 

So there at the east (Brent) end of the Up Loop where it rejoined the Up Main Line there was a double tongue trap leading to a pile of 'loose stuff' (presumably because of the bridge).  While at the west (Plymouth), running on, end of that loop there was a single tongue, spring worked, trap - assuming the second picture is of that end of that loop, which it no doubt is.  

 

So basically as I would have expected and similar to the arrangement St Enodoc is well familiar with on the Down Loop at Par.

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Last night was a lot slower progress than the rest of the week, given the need to pack for a weekend in Devon. But there was at least progress in 3 areas.

 

First the Exeter end of the run around loop has now been glued down, this will provide alignment when the Plymouth end is fitted (hopefully when I return on Sunday). Its very pleasing to see that the new alignment works, and that what had been a fairly significant issue (due to misalignment when the templates were printed / glued) has been resolved. Lesson learned, if the printing of your templates is missing the top alignment line bin them and re print!)

 

Next up was the “front” rail (i.e. the one nearest to the baseboard edge) for the run-around loop / double slip assembly

This has been glued up to the vee of the slip (which needs to be installed before gluing the rest of the chairs down.)

 

This was followed by the soldering and installation of the vee for the run around loop, the other rail for this point is on hold pending the install of the slip’s vees (as is the rest of the track for the loop the far rail of which is formed as part of the point.)

 

The final job was a start on the trap points, the first two were filed to shape by eye. For the switch rail this was an easy job soldering onto the rail before assembly. For the outer rail it had to be soldered onto the running line in situ. I am quite pleased with the end result and will now add the traps to the other end of the loops.

 

I have managed to find a photo clearly showing the other end of the station and the slips in front of the cattle dock, most annoyingly it shows that I have got the points the wrong way round (the point for the goods shed should be off the loop not off the spur for the cattle docks.) That said, I have chopped about 18inches – 2ft out of the middle of the station, and I think if the point was coming off the loop it would have cut down its size too much. It does potentially lead into a second problem around the cattle dock, which may need adjusting in size in order to avoid being alongside a point.

 

post-54-0-53309200-1488532531_thumb.jpgpost-54-0-60214300-1488532543_thumb.jpg

 

Moving on, I have put together a simple diagram showing the changes to the approach track at the Exeter end of the down main. On the prototype the down loop is connected to the branch providing a route into the bay platform from the mainline. There just wasn’t remotely enough room on the layout to have both a decent sized fiddle yard and have the loop. On the other hand the points connecting the loop to the branch were pretty critical to the running of the layout. In the end the solution was to have the point work connecting the main to the loop. I’m not too sure on its prototypical suitability, (and if too farfetched I will just have to go back to considering this section as off scene.) I would like to confirm if there should be any sort of trap points protecting this formation, either on the branch or on the spur linking the two points.

post-54-0-65489900-1488532505_thumb.jpg

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Thanks

I think I understand now. If I can get a photo showing the down main / loop / branch area later, could you confirm if I need any additional traps due to the changes I made to the prototype please?

 

Happy to do so.  The principle is very simple but sometimes the application needs a bit of thought especially in a 'tight' layout like Brent but the basic idea if that is there is any chance of an errant move from a siding or goods line towards a passenger line then a trap is required.

 

If I understand correctly your red lines sketch in Post No.216 all you have done is add a facing connection from the Down Main into the Branch east of the overbridge  - presumably the 'ladder' of slips slightly west of/below the bridge remains more or less as per prototype and your earlier track construction?  If I am reading things correctly you have not added any need for trap points as you have connected a passenger line to another passenger line with what amounts to a crossover and that in itself acts as the protection to prevent some conflicting moves.

 

It will impact on the signalling but that is all. 

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Happy to do so.  The principle is very simple but sometimes the application needs a bit of thought especially in a 'tight' layout like Brent but the basic idea if that is there is any chance of an errant move from a siding or goods line towards a passenger line then a trap is required.

 

If I understand correctly your red lines sketch in Post No.216 all you have done is add a facing connection from the Down Main into the Branch east of the overbridge  - presumably the 'ladder' of slips slightly west of/below the bridge remains more or less as per prototype and your earlier track construction?  If I am reading things correctly you have not added any need for trap points as you have connected a passenger line to another passenger line with what amounts to a crossover and that in itself acts as the protection to prevent some conflicting moves.

 

It will impact on the signalling but that is all. 

Thanks, yes everything else is more or less as per the prototype (all be it with two points switched around as per the post this morning.)

When I get round to starting signalling I think I will have to get on and buy the signalbox diagram linked earlier and modify accordingly.

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After a long drive back from Devon, followed by taking a toddler and a baby to their swimming lessons and packing for Sevilla, I finally managed an hour on the layout last night.

 

Once again track building was the order of the day. 

 

The starting point (no pun intended) was the "Plymouth" double slip, which has now been fitted with a 1:7.48 vee at the Brent end.  This in turn enabled the installation of the other half of the loop track (although due to glue drying times I didnt have time to actually glue down the chair.  This was then followed by some work on the lowest yard point, installing the switch blades.  At which point tiredness took over, and other than some repairs to the garage door insulation, not a lot else was achieved.  Incidentally I am now considering adding a thin sheet of either ply or hardboard riveted to the frame of the garage door, to both tidy it up and to ensure that the insulation foam stops coming loose. 

 

So the current status of track:

 

The whole of the lift out board remains to be started, this includes a continuous section of both the branch and up mainline (about 2ft in length), and a section of the down main including the facing point that substitutes for the missing down loops access to the bay platform.  I think I have just enough track bases to lay this, though there is a high risk of falling short by a few lengths...

 

On the scenic section properly, there is one short siding still to lay.  

 

2 points which only have one rail glued down

 

The west double slip only has outer rails, and still needs the second vee soldering up.

 

 

Three points need switch rails, all of which (plus one other) require wing rails.

 

6 points + the west slip require the tie bars soldering in position, all of which plus the east slip and the up loop access need point motors.

 

 

The east slip needs correcting at the station side, as the clearances are no where near sufficient.  This will almost certainly require yet another new tiebar installation, and a shedload of tedious cleaning off old solder.

 

All of the above requires wiring.

 

 

And when that is all done, I still need to make the fiddleyard, almost all of which will be copperclad track and home made points.  I may still use Peco for the branch fiddleyard, though chances are to save on the cost that will end up being home made to the peco diagram.  I think in total there are something like 14 points in the fiddleyard!  At this stage I am seriously thinking about adding a CDU and using solenoid motors to save money on these...

The straight track which was going to be laid from peco code 75, will now be copperclad built (seeing as I have a ton of copperclad and a lot of rail left over from the bulk pack I purchased from C&L at teh start of the project 

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As the track laying is rapidly nearing its completion on the scenic section, I am turning attention to the signalling.

 

While signal construction is a (very) long way off, I want to ensure that any prep work is completed prior to the ballasting stage.

This will include installing the shunt signals (which will not be working), all of the point rodding / signal cable wheels etc, and possibly the base / post of the signals (more research being needed as I have no idea what the base of a GW semaphore signal looks like!)

 

As such working from a large number of photos I have come up with the attached sketch.

 

In short:

The black lines are the track

The light blue the point rodding

Blue circles are hand lever operated points

Green circles are shunt signals (the grey blob is the facing side)

Red signals = stop signal

Yellow = distant signal

A white semicircle = the semicircle plate behind the signal arm

Blue star = facing point lock

 

I think I have managed to get this more or less right, but would welcome confirmation that this is the case. There are a couple of areas where the track has been fudged slightly. I will try and take a few photos showing top down the actual track when I get home from Sevilla.

 

At present my logic is tending towards the MSE cast rollers for the rodding, with Brassmasters cranks and signal wheels. Much as I love the look of the ModelU components, I'm going to need a lot and this looks to be the best combination of price vs detail vs ease of installation. But again I would welcome feedback from those who have more experience. I will be going back over a couple of layouts to have a read

 

I have also managed to source a large batch of second hand Tortoise motors, enough to finish the scenic section and also to do most of the fiddleyard. Look forward to their delivery so I can start connecting up the goods yard!

post-54-0-45315100-1488904571_thumb.jpg

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Initial reaction -

 

Some facing point locks (FPLs in the wrong place - you need them on passenger lines, not on sidings.

 

Three distant signals drawn the wrong way round and with incorrect shape of arm but in roughly the right places.

 

Two stop signals drawn the wrong way round at the east end (the two Home Signals).

 

One too many ground discs at the easts end (movement from Up Main to cross - there should be only one signal although it might be a double, or triple, disc; not two separate signals.

 

Some of the rodding runs look a bit awkward including three instances where you have two ends of a crossover worked off two completely different runs - which is definitely incorrect.

 

I'm fairly sure without checking that the entrance points to the Up Loop were motor worked, and the trap at that end of the loop was definitely a spring point

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Initial reaction -

 

Some facing point locks (FPLs in the wrong place - you need them on passenger lines, not on sidings.

I think this might be my poor drawing, as I notice that I have marked the single trap points with a dark blue blob thats very similar to the star I used for the facing point locks.  I have included 3, up main (before loop), down main (before connection to branch) and the branch connection to down main.   Traps are now changed to purple

 

Three distant signals drawn the wrong way round and with incorrect shape of arm but in roughly the right places.

Will swap them around, I am not actually sure if I will include these.  My suspicion is that they should be a little further down the line than I am modelling.  My main reason for their inclusion was purely in order that I include some distant signals on the layout for a bit of interest.

 

Two stop signals drawn the wrong way round at the east end (the two Home Signals).

Changed

 

One too many ground discs at the easts end (movement from Up Main to cross - there should be only one signal although it might be a double, or triple, disc; not two separate signals.

Which one needs to go here?  the one between the tracks (left or right of the slip) or the one above the up main just past the point?

 

Some of the rodding runs look a bit awkward including three instances where you have two ends of a crossover worked off two completely different runs - which is definitely incorrect.

This bit massively confused me looking at photos of the prototype.  the layout of the main rodding runs appear to be in line with what I have drawn (certainly wit the the run either side of the bay platform which gets to the east end of the  slip on the yard side but appears to not get to the west end.  theres a photo on Ebay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PHOTO-BRENT-RAILWAY-STATION-DEVON-1958-GWR-EXETER-PLYMOUTH-PENZANCE-MAIN-/192121795477?hash=item2cbb59f395:g:26kAAOSwgZ1XwBh7 which shows what I mean.  Would  appreciate guidance as to how this should look if you dont mind.

 

I'm fairly sure without checking that the entrance points to the Up Loop were motor worked, and the trap at that end of the loop was definitely a spring point

Poor drawing on my part re the trap (now redrawn).  Re the motor driven points, would that be the case in 1947?  I hadn't realised that such things were in existence back then. 

Thanks for your feedback, I have added comments in your post and will now do some revisions and update the drawing. 

Edited by The Fatadder
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Here is the updated plan.

 

I have left the points for the up loop / down main to branch as mechanical for the moment but will change once the point motor issue is confirmed.  Incidentally would it still be motor driven on the Exeter (east) end of the down main where it joins with the branch (given its much closer proximity to the signal box than the prototype?)

post-54-0-03431400-1488913491_thumb.jpg

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Ive had another look at a different set of photos (which sadly i cant share) which looks as though the slip is controlled by the rodding on the yard side.  

 

The problem remains I can clearly see rodding running the length of both platform sides, but appearing to stop on the down main before it gets to the bottom crossover / yard entrance.  likewise I am unclear as to where the rodding down the branch side of the platform would go.  one or the other must connect to the section on the far side of the yard points, but which i am unsure.

 

Very confused and i havent even started making it yet...

 

As a slight aside, I have been thinking some more about the construction method.  With a plan starting to form in my head using the much more accurate (and much more expensive) ModelU product for the section in the yard where it will be very visible to the opperator, and then using the cheaper MSE stuff further back where it will be less visible.  Some experimentation is called for...

Edited by The Fatadder
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I don't think the Modelu point rodding stools are that expensive at 10p per stool, as you only need to order them as needed, ie 1s, 2s, 3s 4s. etc and only as many of each that you require, whereas the cast ones only come in one size, so either have to be cut down or trying to add additional stools. The look of the Modelu stools is outstanding. The usual disclaimers apply.

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