pre BR first generation DMU railcar development (not steam)

[runs as required]

This thread has been started because I'd dragged Ron Ron's Coventry Railcar thread too far off topic

 

LMS 3 car articulated train 1939

 

The most complete research of the Coventry railcar, the Michelines and the LMS Leyland articulated 3 car unit  available on line seems to be here

in Part 2 headed "La Micheline and the Coventry Railcars" which continues over into Part 3 and a  heading "The LMS Articulated Diesel

Unit ".

The LMS NCC Railcars Nos.3 and 4 were apparently mechanically similar; I can't find any photos.

 

---------------------------------

 

After the GWR railcars, post war AEC/Park Royal developments are

• In 1949 GNR(I) ordered 20 diesel mechanical railcars from A.E.C developed directly from the pre-war A.E.C./Great Western Railway design.
  Delivered in 1950 they had Park Royal bodies and were powered by two A.E.C. 125 h.p. under-floor engines, mounted vertically as on the GW cars, each one driving the inner axle of one bogie through a five-speed, pre-selective epicyclic gearbox. More on these here

GNR(I) AEC left, similar CIE 2600 class right

• CIE both inherited half of the GNR(I) fleet when it was divided up either side of the border and had also procured their own version .The cars were still part of the ‘Enterprise’ express Dublin-Belfast stock in the 1960s, very similar to the later Irish BUT/Leyland cars.These sophisticated Irish DMUs resulted from GW management advising Irish railways about their post war re-equipment plans (Milne Report).

------------------------------------

• In the early 1950s AEC (as ACV after the merger with Crossley) built a 4 wheeler 2/3 car demonstration train and single railcar with Park Royal in the hope of attracting BR orders,  explained here

the original demonstrator had LT RT bus type half drop windows, the BR railbus had sliding uarter lights

[Nearholmer]

Good stuff!

 

I've put MU control into its own thread too.

 

The topic you've created is very wide, so its hard to know where best to start.

 

What do we think was the first internal-combustion powered railcar in the UK (tiny little inspection-trollies excluded)? I will make a stab with a gas tram from the 1890s.

 

Kevin

[grandadgeoff]

, yes the Gas Tram.

 

Not sure how many were built for Blackpool, St Anne's and Lytham, but three were later transferred - or sold - to Neath and worked there for several years.

 

One has been restored and lives at the Cefn Coen Colliery Museum nearby.

 

Link to facebook page below:-

 

https://www.facebook.com/CefnCoedColliery/photos/a.1493110734242980.1073741829.1492774580943262/1493110810909639/?type=3&theatre

 

Best wishes.

[Nearholmer]

Wonderful beasts. I think the first one in the GB was tried in Croydon, before going to Lytham.

 

The other system that you don't mention that had them in GB was the line at Trafford Park.

 

So far, I haven't made the pilgrimage to Cefn Coed to look at it, but it's on my "to do" list, even though it doesn't have an engine or, I think, much of the gearing, left.

 

Here is a German one, partially unclothed. Herr Luhrig, who perfected them, was active in the British and German schemes, as well as the other places they were used.

 

Kevin

[runs as required]

The topic you've created is very wide, so its hard to know where best to start.

Since I can claim to be RM's Champion 'Off Topic' poster, I deliberately set these goal posts wide apart.

And I can claim success - Gas Trams (who'd have remembered them) we must all agree, are  firmly 'on topic'

 

2

In remembering those 'missing' link fast GNR(I) Enterprise trains I found it difficult to unearth a good pic of them in their original 1950 beautiful dark blue and cream GNR(I) livery.

While image  hunting I happened across this at Amiens Street (now Dublin Connolly)

Any suggestions?

 

It appears to be two driving trailers (one with guard's luggage compartment) articulated to a central power unit. It looks slightly earler than the GNR(I) 1950 Park Royal unit.

Might it be a last gasp from Walkers of Wigan? And do note the other extreme of CIE with the grubby end of a Victorian non-corridor coach trying to step back out of the camera's beadth of vision...

 

dh

[SRman]

As soon as I saw that photo, my first thought was "Walkers". I don't know anything about the unit, of course, but it was the first impression.

[John M]

Since I can claim to be RM's Champion 'Off Topic' poster, I deliberately set these goal posts wide apart.

And I can claim success - Gas Trams (who'd have remembered them) we must all agree, are  firmly 'on topic'

 

2

In remembering those 'missing' link fast GNR(I) Enterprise trains I found it difficult to unearth a good pic of them in their original 1950 beautiful dark blue and cream GNR(I) livery.

While image  hunting I happened across this at Amiens Street (now Dublin Connolly)

 

GNR 1955 Amiens St.jpg

Any suggestions?

 

It appears to be two driving trailers (one with guard's luggage compartment) articulated to a central power unit. It looks slightly earler than the GNR(I) 1950 Park Royal unit.

Might it be a last gasp from Walkers of Wigan? And do note the other extreme of CIE with the grubby end of a Victorian non-corridor coach trying to step back out of the camera's beadth of vision...

 

dh

 

GNR(I)built four similar lightweight diesel trains for suburban and local services D & E (1936) and F & G (1938).D&E each seated 159 passengers in 3 classes and was powered by a single 152hp Gardner engine fluid flywheel and Wilson epicyclic gearbox in a 6 coupled centre section with guards compartment. F&G each seated 164 passengers in 3 classes and was powered by two 102bhp Gardner engines with fluid flywheel and Wilson epicyclic gearbox similar to the later AEC railcars each driving a separate axle.

 

The photo of F is likely to be in GNR(I) days in the Howth Bay at Amiens Street, the coach in mahogany part of a loco hauled suburban set.

 

All the double ended railcars eventually went to the UTA after the break up of the GNR, with F (104) & G (105) operating services up to the closure of the line in 1965.

 

During the 1930s the Great Southern Railways (GSR) built four two car battery electric articulated railcars for its Dublin suburban services, two in 1934 two in 1939. The GSR railcars were of heavy weight construction capable of multi-unit operation.

 

The 1939 cars were of modern steel panel construction with rounded ends similar in styling to the 3 car LMS diesel train.

 

Rather than a last gasp Walkers exported similar railcars to Victoria Railways in the 1950s http://www.victorianrailways.net/motive%20power/walk280.html

[PhilJ W]

Since I can claim to be RM's Champion 'Off Topic' poster, I deliberately set these goal posts wide apart.

And I can claim success - Gas Trams (who'd have remembered them) we must all agree, are  firmly 'on topic'

 

2

In remembering those 'missing' link fast GNR(I) Enterprise trains I found it difficult to unearth a good pic of them in their original 1950 beautiful dark blue and cream GNR(I) livery.

While image  hunting I happened across this at Amiens Street (now Dublin Connolly)

GNR 1955 Amiens St.jpg

Any suggestions?

 

It appears to be two driving trailers (one with guard's luggage compartment) articulated to a central power unit. It looks slightly earler than the GNR(I) 1950 Park Royal unit.

Might it be a last gasp from Walkers of Wigan? And do note the other extreme of CIE with the grubby end of a Victorian non-corridor coach trying to step back out of the camera's beadth of vision...

 

dh

This articulated unit was powered by two Gardner engines mounted in the six wheel centre section. Each engine drove one of the outer axles of the centre unit making the unit 2+A-1-A+2. The engines were each in their own compartment separated by a through passage connecting the passenger units. Reversal at termini was achieved by throwing a lever in each engine compartment which led to problems for drivers unfamiliar with them. It was not unknown for one of the levers to be placed facing opposite the other resulting in the drive axles revolving in opposite directions, IIRC both levers placed in the direction of travel was correct.

[russ p]

I hadn't realised the LMS articulated unit received new cabs in departmental service, I've never seen a photograph of it post 1939

[PhilJ W]

I hadn't realised the LMS articulated unit received new cabs in departmental service, I've never seen a photograph of it post 1939

There was a drawing of it as modified for departmental service in a copy of 'Railway Magazine' from about the time it was converted. It makes a brief appearance in a 1950's publicity film about electrification IIRC either the LT&S electrification or the Shenfield-Southend.

[Nearholmer]

Fascinating; I doesn't even know that it had an "after life".

 

Looks pretty stylish below, and seriously more modern than the infrastructure.

 

K

[russ p]

Always reminds me of an airship gondola!

[runs as required]

Thanks so much for the excellent link to the Victoria Railways Walker cars.

The diagrams reveal two classes, each of 12 units, the earlier 1948/9 single artic unit 102h.p. 6LW Gardner diesel (2 no. 40 seaters plus 10 no.with 45 seats dependent upon luggage van size) and the later 1949/50 articulated  208 h.p. centre power unit  with 2x8LW  Gardner engines and two driving trailers totalling 94 seats. Note separate male & female toilets - in Australia !

It is interesting that the power unit is shipped from Walkers Wigan works and the coach frames and bodies made in the locality of the railway (Dundalk works seemingly in the case of the GNR(I) units)

The central power unit of the Melbourne units clearly has no gangway connection for passengers between the cars and is a 4 wheel unit. It appears that  the GNR(I) unit pictured at Amiens St (Connolly) is also 4 wheeled.

The Melbourne ones lasted until 1981 but were described as rough riders.

 

There is a cab view on the www.wiganworld.co.uk site

It's difficult see how it was reportedly tricky to be sure which way it was about to depart - I couldn't quite fathom the double gate gear change turret.

 

dh

[PhilJ W]

This articulated unit was powered by two Gardner engines mounted in the six wheel centre section. Each engine drove one of the outer axles of the centre unit making the unit 2+A-1-A+2. The engines were each in their own compartment separated by a through passage connecting the passenger units. Reversal at termini was achieved by throwing a lever in each engine compartment which led to problems for drivers unfamiliar with them. It was not unknown for one of the levers to be placed facing opposite the other resulting in the drive axles revolving in opposite directions, IIRC both levers placed in the direction of travel was correct.

Apologies, I have found the article about these railcars and the above is wrong in several respects. There were in fact three such railcars the first had only one engine, a Gardner 6LX of only 105 hp. The following two units were the ones fitted with two engines but these did not have the centre axle but were otherwise as I described above. The GNR(I) gave their railcars letters instead of numbers, the single engine unit carried the letters D and E, each passenger compartment having its own letter. The twin engined units bore the letters F and G which is more logical as each unit was a single entity.

[EddieB]

Really nice to find a thread that can be classed as "educational" - long may journeys of discovery continue!

 

I trust that discussing developments outside the UK aren't regarded as off-topic (ironic, given the provenance of this thread!) but I was intrigued by the reference and link to the Walker-Martin and King-Newport railmotors built for Victorian Railways.

 

There were three series, built concurrently: as supplied nos.1 RM - 12 RM were 102hp with single trailers (13 RM was a spare power unit); nos. 20 RM - 34 RM were 153hp with single trailers (35 RM spare) and nos. 80 RM - 91 RM were 280hp with double trailers (92 RM spare).  The last survivors from the latter series ended their working lives in 1980, the 153hp units in 1979 and the 102hp units in 1978.  As a cross-over with the related topic, there is a suggestion that the 280hp doubles were fitted with MU control, but not used.

 

Happily one of the 102hp and three each of the 153hp and 280hp units still exist in store or preservation.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walker_railmotor

 

What has come as a pleasant surprise for me has been to unearth a photo of 22 RM at the museum at North Williamstown from 1987.  At that time I had merely noted it as "a Wickham"(!), there being no internet in those days and it not being listed in the museum guide (a 1985 reprint of a 1977 last revision).  Unfortunately I only photographed the railmotor from the driving trailer end - but a happy rediscovery nonetheless.

 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Marvellous stuff!

 

While we are on Walkers, worth remembering that they made a few very nice locos too https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIE_501_Class

 

These were a serious loss to preservation, because they were highly practical, and "one owner, barely used" when scrapped. The Wikipedia entry notes that they were offered to IoMR; they were also offered to Bord na Mona, along with the railcars.

 

BnM didn't take either the locos (too big for them at the time) and only took some railcar bodies (not the cab/engine unit) and, bus-like trailer car that was built for them to pull, plus a few other bits.

 

K

[John M]

This thread has been started because I'd dragged Ron Ron's Coventry Railcar thread too far off topic

 

 

The LMS NCC Railcars Nos.3 and 4 were apparently mechanically similar; I can't find any photos.[/font][/size]

There is a photo of one of the turret cabbed NCC railcars in Colm Flanagan's thread on building a model of NCC railcar 4 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/108171-uta-exncc-railcar-no-4/

 

The NCC railcars were similar mechanically to the majority of 1st generation DMUs, the break through with the development of multi unit control systems by AEC and the Ulster Transport Authority (UTA) in the immediate post war era.

 

Colm's book Diesel Dawn Ireland's Contribution to the Development of the DMU 1931-1967 details the evolution of the DMU from the experimental LMS railcars through the UTA MED (Multi Engine Diesel)railcars of 1954 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTA_MED to the British Railways Derby Lightweight units the 1st generation DMU

[Nearholmer]

At this point, we should probably doff our caps not only to Mr Flanagan, for providing us with an interesting book, but also to Henry Forbes of the County Donegal railway, who pretty much succeeded in doing in the 1930s what the entire might of British Rail made heavy weather of in the late 1950s: dieselisation of a rural railway passenger service, to secure operating economy and improved journey times (yes, I know that the CDR had steam long after that, but look carefully and you will find that it was used very sparingly).

 

K

[runs as required]

Those three locos for CIE in 1955 in post #15 above appear to have been Walker's last railway work

According to this web site

http://www.wiganworld.co.uk/album/photo.php?opt=3&id=24134&gallery=Walmesleys&offset=20

Walker's last railcar contracts were

• "Two diesel rail cars built for Peruvian Railway Company … successfully completed trial run between Wigan and Golborne prior to shipment abroad." [Ernest Pyke]
• "According to E.D. Brant in his book "Railways of North Africa" Walkers also built a railcar in 1953 for service in Libya." [Pete.R ]
  (I can’t find any images of these)
• "When I started in the Railcar shop at Walkers as an apprentice fitter in Feb. 1953 there was a Railcar full length of the shop being got ready for weighing, which was done over the weekend. I think this was the last one for Northern Ireland. The last ones I worked on were Central Power Bogies for Peru, after that it was Emergency Winders for the NCB." [Eddie (Ted)]

Thereafter Walker's business was mining equipment and paper making machinery. The firm was merged/taken over as part of an international paper making specialist from 1959. The firms history is explained here http://www.walmsleys-uk.com/history.html

[Echo]

I thought Wickhams had perfected some sort of multiple working system before WW2. They constructed some railcars for the Central Railway of Peru - ordered before WW2 but not completed until after - that were designed to run in multiple - up to 5 cars, if I remember correctly.

[runs as required]

A picture of Wickhams of Ware railcars for South America here

http://www.hertfordshire-genealogy.co.uk/data/answers/answers-2009/ans9-028-wickham.htm

 

dh

[EddieB]

There's a lot more to Walker Brothers and the Pagefield Ironworks than given in the Walmsley history. The range of products was quite diverse and rail vehicles formed only a small part of the firm's output, alongside winding engines, road vehicles (including mobile cranes), condensors/dehumidifiers and other static machinery.

 

Founded as J. Scarisbrick Walker and Brothers, the firm was renamed Walker Brothers (Wigan) in 1880.  In the early days (1870s and 1880s) over thirty steam tank locomotives were built and supplied to local industries.  There then seems to be a hiatus while the company established a reputation for non-rail products, until the advent of commissions to build diesel railcars.

 

The first railcars for export (i.e. outside the British Isles) were built in the 1930s and were based on their designs for the Irish railways.  Apart from their gauges, the three were built to a common design.  The first was for the standard gauge of the Piata-Piura section in Peru.  (There is an illustration in "Railways of Peru: Vol 1 - The Northern Lines", where the gauge is wrongly given as 1440mm).  The other two were supplied to the EF Sao Paulo in Brazil, one of 1600mm gauge, the other of metre gauge.

 

The final pair of railcars for Peru were nos. 1 and 2 of the 914mm gauge FC Trujillo.  The author of the aforementioned book photographed no. 2 during a visit in 1965 when it was being used to dismantle the line.

 

Quite a lot of information about rail and non-rail products can be found in items in "The Engineer", scanned copies of which can be found by following the links on http://www.gracesguide.co.uk./Special:Search?search=walker+brothers&fulltext=

[runs as required]

The NCC railcars were similar mechanically to the majority of 1st generation DMUs, the break through with the development of multi unit control systems by AEC and the Ulster Transport Authority (UTA) in the immediate post war era.

Colm's book Diesel Dawn Ireland's Contribution to the Development of the DMU 1931-1967 details the evolution of the DMU from the experimental LMS railcars through the UTA MED (Multi Engine Diesel)railcars of 1954 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTA_MED  to the British Railways Derby Lightweight units the 1st generation DMU

 

Colm Flanagan also wrote a most interesting detailed mechanical account of the UTA Bangor line diesel MED units in Backtrack magazine (Vol 27 no 9) September 2013.

These ran past the bottom of my folk’s garden during their time in Ireland, though I am ashamed to say got short shrift when whenever we visited – I much preferred the steam excursions with GNR 0-6-0s or NCC tanks that still ran past on public holidays. UTA seemed at its absolute nadir – a lot of the old GNR(I) network up to Derry through Omagh was being abandoned at the time.

Colm explains how the UTA engineers had to cobble together their Multi Engined Diesels on a self help basis at York Road from their experiences with the NCC diesels.

from: http://www.geograph.ie/photo/3757647

The trains had a modern look with horizontal ribbed panels and sliding doors, yet were constructed by adapting archaic carriage frames. They appeared in 1954, two years before the Derby Lightweights.

 

dh

[Nearholmer]

Getting back to Walkers for a moment: anyone have any clues as to where their suddenly revived railway expertise came from in the 1930s, or why they were chosen as suppliers by CDR?

 

I've long wondered how a firm not known for railway work at the time suddenly popped into the equation with a highly successful design.

 

Kevin

 

PS: for completeness, I will mention that Wickham were also suppliers of 3ft gauge railcars to Ireland, although it has to be said that they were more modest machines than those from Walkers, in the form of personnel transport for Bord na Mona.

 

PPS: and, for a degree more completeness, Walker also built at least one car for the SLNCR, IIRC.

[EddieB]

Since I can claim to be RM's Champion 'Off Topic' poster, I deliberately set these goal posts wide apart.

And I can claim success - Gas Trams (who'd have remembered them) we must all agree, are  firmly 'on topic'

 

2

In remembering those 'missing' link fast GNR(I) Enterprise trains I found it difficult to unearth a good pic of them in their original 1950 beautiful dark blue and cream GNR(I) livery.

While image  hunting I happened across this at Amiens Street (now Dublin Connolly)

GNR 1955 Amiens St.jpg

Any suggestions?

 

It appears to be two driving trailers (one with guard's luggage compartment) articulated to a central power unit. It looks slightly earler than the GNR(I) 1950 Park Royal unit.

Might it be a last gasp from Walkers of Wigan? And do note the other extreme of CIE with the grubby end of a Victorian non-corridor coach trying to step back out of the camera's beadth of vision...

 

dh

The photo was is rightly identified as being of GNR(I) Railcar F and taken at Amiens Street, the date being August 1955.

 

Railcars F and G were built by the GNR(I) at Dundalk.  They were twin-engined (total 204bhp), driving a two-axled centre section (as John M identifies correctly).

 

The photo by Ian Davdson is copyrighted through Colour-Rail.