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Patrick Blake

1938 / 59 / 62 EFE vs Pirate Models

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I am starting a 1938 / 59 / 62 Stock Project and have planned to scratch build or part scratch build a few 7 and 8 car formations in various liveries. 

I have two Pirate Models 1959 / 62TS kits which I will use as a template. 

I compared my EFE 1959TS Set with the kit and noticed some inaccuracies with both the die-cast and kit versions.
Here's a list:

EFE Die-cast:
Driver's Cab door too far forward
Trailing end single leaf doors are too far from body ends.
Rivet Line above door slightly low.
Trailing ends have four grab rails instead of three.
Door Fault Lights (Pre-EHO 38's)
No Butterfly Cocks

Pirate Models Kit:
Overall body slightly wide and higher compared to EFE.
Door height exceeded and corners are too rounded.
Rivet Lines above doors are too high due to the above.

Surprisingly, the car lengths for both are exactly the same, so I assume they got that bit correct.

If I have missed anything, then please let me know. I'm aware that EFE chassis were also wrong in certain places.
Some blue-prints would be useful for comparing.


In case you're wondering why I've chosen to scratch build? IMHO, converting EFE die-cast models has proven to be costly and time consuming, many issues have already been covered in separate topics so I wont go into detail. Issues with detailing and Motorizing are commonly raised.

I will attempt to scratch built my own chassis and bogies to go with a few EFE - style 38TS resin cast bodies that I bought on eBay. I plan to super detail the resin shells and paint them in EHO Bakerloo Livery. 

Patrick

Edited by Patrick Blake
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The EFE cars don't have butterfly cocks either and if you're not doing EHO the door fault lights will have to go. I think the pirate kits have the same problem. The glazing is surprisingly similar!

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Somewhere around I have an LT blueprint of the 38 stock driving coach, and even that is wrong! don't ask me to copy it as it's the size of a dining table. try and a get a copy of the Skinley blueprints, they're usually quite good.

Edited by roythebus
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The EFE cars don't have butterfly cocks either and if you're not doing EHO the door fault lights will have to go. I think the pirate kits have the same problem. The glazing is surprisingly similar!

 

I assume you're referring to the ones at front. luckily I am doing EHO but you raise a fair point. 

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The door fault lights are on the roof and are a pain to get rid off on the brass pirate kits so just as well you can retain them!

 

You need to put the stabling light on in the bottom corner to replace a marker light.

 

As an aside I'm currently converting an EFE 1938 stock car into a flat front 1935 stock car.

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The door fault lights are on the roof and are a pain to get rid off on the brass pirate kits so just as well you can retain them!

 

You need to put the stabling light on in the bottom corner to replace a marker light.

 

As an aside I'm currently converting an EFE 1938 stock car into a flat front 1935 stock car.

Have you ever attempted to add Butterfly cocks on a model or other detailing corrections. Sounds interesting.

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The Pirate cast of the cab is very hit and miss, yet the kit provides better parts for the chassis and Underfloor equipment. Not only is it more detailed but comes with various pieces for either NDM or T. I recall someone mentioning incorrect detailing with the EFE Underfloor Equip.
 
On the EFE model, I also noticed that center cab door is flush when it shouldn't be.
Also, my theory about the single leaf doors is that they were moved slightly inwards by 1mm or 2 so the corner walls could disguise the inside tubes that screw down into the chassis. When you look at photographs, the single leaf doors aren't as far from the corner grab rails as they have been depicted on the model.

vh9wHbq.jpgXvAPRgl.jpgDAk7W7E.jpguKgbFft.jpgeJKQ8EL.jpg

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I am making a fair few alterations to my EFE units. My first was the 4 car 1959 pilot unit with one green car and the rest silver. The windows were removed, hand rails cut away and butterfly cocks added. To do this you need to drill a small hole,about 2mm in the side of the car and insert a pin with the round head filed flat on each side. Drill and glue this in and cut the end protruding into the saloon off. This can be used for door handles too.

 

I resprayed all my 1959/62 unit silver and one car green and used black ink washes to create the cleaned graffiti look. Also be aware that the door fault light on one end of the 1959/62 stock roof which is at the wrong end on one of the cars.

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The Pirate cast of the cab is very hit and miss, yet the kit provides better parts for the chassis and Underfloor equipment. Not only is it more detailed but comes with various pieces for either NDM or T. I recall someone mentioning incorrect detailing with the EFE Underfloor Equip.
 
On the EFE model, I also noticed that center cab door is flush when it shouldn't be.
Also, my theory about the single leaf doors is that they were moved slightly inwards by 1mm or 2 so the corner walls could disguise the inside tubes that screw down into the chassis. When you look at photographs, the single leaf doors aren't as far from the corner grab rails as they have been depicted on the model.

 

vh9wHbq.jpgXvAPRgl.jpgDAk7W7E.jpguKgbFft.jpgeJKQ8EL.jpg

 

An EFE factory reject body shell in resin? Really? I'd be very surprised if they'd been anywhere near the factory, especially as the factory is in China.

 

The EFE '38 and '59/'62 body shells are polystyrene, not resin. Test shots would be in polystyrene as, AFAIK, you can't do a test shot of a mould intended for injection moulding polystyrene in resin. I suspect that what you have bought are pirated, no pun intended, resin castings of the EFE body shells, a nice little knock-off earner for someone. The flash around the bottom of the DM car towards the rear of the car is a dead giveaway. It can be done, I have seen for sale on ebay resin cast copies of the Tri-ang Sydney Suburban ("Red Ralttlers") body shells, and know of guys who have done likewise with other commercial body shells.

 

You say that the centre door is flush on the EFE model when it shouldn't be, but looking at photos that I have taken of '38 stock, it is so close to being flush that it is difficult to tell if it is recessed, or the shut lines that one is seeing. Remember, the origins of '38 Stock were the '35 Streamline stock, which did have a flush centre door, as did, looking at the picture on page 19 of Piers Connor's "The 1938 Tube Stock", the centre door on the flat fronted variants of the '35 Stock which were the true prototypes of the '38 stock. I agree that there should only be one grab handle on the non driving ends of the cars, but looking at the picture on page 81 J Graeme Bruce's "London Underground Tube Stock", the distance between the single door and the car end on the DM cars looks about right. There was space to stand with your back against the end wall of the car and not obstruct the door, partly because, IIRC, there were 4 tip-up upholstered seats in the end wall, 2 per side, for use outside the rush hour, and when folded away, the underside of the seats were flush with the interior of the end wall.

 

The major problem with the Pirate model of the '59/'62 stock for me is the join between the body side and the roof, the seam is too big, and is particularly evident on your photos of the cab front on the '59/'62 stock.. That carried through into the Harrow Model Shop kits. Also the recess on the front cab door on the '59/'62 stock is too great on the Pirate model. Like the '38 Stock in some photos it is difficult to say if it the shut lines or a recess that one is seeing.

 

But enjoy your scratchbuilding, we can never have too many LT/LU modellers.

Edited by GoingUnderground

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An EFE factory reject body shell in resin? Really? I'd be very surprised if they'd been anywhere near the factory, especially as the factory is in China.

 

The EFE '38 and '59/'62 body shells are polystyrene, not resin. Test shots would be in polystyrene as, AFAIK, you can't do a test shot of a mould intended for injection moulding polystyrene in resin. I suspect that what you have bought are pirated, no pun intended, resin castings of the EFE body shells, a nice little knock-off earner for someone. The flash around the bottom of the DM car towards the rear of the car is a dead giveaway. It can be done, I have seen for sale on ebay resin cast copies of the Tri-ang Sydney Suburban ("Red Ralttlers") body shells, and know of guys who have done likewise with other commercial body shells.

 

You say that the centre door is flush on the EFE model when it shouldn't be, but looking at photos that I have taken of '38 stock, it is so close to being flush that it is difficult to tell if it is recessed, or the shut lines that one is seeing. Remember, the origins of '38 Stock were the '35 Streamline stock, which did have a flush centre door, as did, looking at the picture on page 19 of Piers Connor's "The 1938 Tube Stock", the centre door on the flat fronted variants of the '35 Stock which were the true prototypes of the '38 stock. I agree that there should only be one grab handle on the non driving ends of the cars, but looking at the picture on page 81 J Graeme Bruce's "London Underground Tube Stock", the distance between the single door and the car end on the DM cars looks about right. There was space to stand with your back against the end wall of the car and not obstruct the door, partly because, IIRC, there were 4 tip-up upholstered seats in the end wall, 2 per side, for use outside the rush hour, and when folded away, the underside of the seats were flush with the interior of the end wall.

 

The major problem with the Pirate model of the '59/'62 stock for me is the join between the body side and the roof, the seam is too big, and is particularly evident on your photos of the cab front on the '59/'62 stock.. That carried through into the Harrow Model Shop kits. Also the recess on the front cab door on the '59/'62 stock is too great on the Pirate model. Like the '38 Stock in some photos it is difficult to say if it the shut lines or a recess that one is seeing.

 

But enjoy your scratchbuilding, we can never have too many LT/LU modellers.

Thanks for spotting that, sounds like you've seen a few proper EFE bodies then.

Those resin bodies were sold as kit parts, though when I showed them to a few modellers, they all including myself noticed that they were very identical to the EFE castings, so I speculated that they were EFE off casts without considering that they might have been pirated copies.

Corrections will be made.

Nevertheless, I got 6 DM's and 4 T/NDM's for £58 which isn't half bad, they are pretty robust a nicely detailed bodies. Having plain bodies, gives you the chance to super-detail and paint liveries which EFE haven't attempted such as the late Bakerloo EHO Livery. I could also make maintenance vehicles such as Tunnel Cleaning and Weed Killing Units.

 

All of the 38's, 59's and 62's I've seen have a recessed door so that is what I will be doing. It's standard practice in modelling for small detailing to be exaggerated, otherwise we wouldn't model grab rails with 0.5, 0.6 or 0.7 wire and every door would look almost flush, like the Bachmann S Stock - unless you want to be a scale perfectionist.

The single leaf door IS approx 2 mm further away from the corners than it ought to be. I've compared the sides with the Pirate Models Etched Brass bodies and compared with many photographs I've taken and with photographs in Brian Hardy's 'Underground Train File' 33 - 59.

 

On the subject of Pirate Models, yes as I already pointed out, the cast cab front of the kit isn't great, though I will attempt to make corrections where possible. I will attempt to reduce the recess of the center cab door, and reduce the size and height of the seam which makes the entire cab front, and as a result the whole body, much taller than it ought to be.

 

The resin bodies are a one-off and will be used for trialing various chassis which I will scratch build. Once I'm happy with the chassis, I will then scratch build a few bodies in the Pirate Models style (CAD designed etched brass body) and white metal cast ends.

 

I've opted brass for scratch building my 38's, 59/62's as I will be using this as my base for a future experiment.

Otherwise, I would recommend 3D printing for anybody who's good at that sort of thing. 

Edited by Patrick Blake

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Thanks for spotting that, sounds like you've seen a few proper EFE bodies then.

Those resin bodies were sold as kit parts, though when I showed them to a few modellers, they all including myself noticed that they were very identical to the EFE castings, so I speculated that they were EFE off casts without considering that they might have been pirated copies.

Corrections will be made.

Nevertheless, I got 6 DM's and 4 T/NDM's for £58 which isn't half bad, they are pretty robust a nicely detailed bodies....

 

 

......All of the 38's, 59's and 62's I've seen have a recessed door so that is what I will be doing. It's standard practice in modelling for small detailing to be exaggerated, otherwise we wouldn't model grab rails with 0.5, 0.6 or 0.7 wire and every door would look almost flush, like the Bachmann S Stock - unless you want to be a scale perfectionist.....

Just a few, look at my avatar....

 

As I said, a nice little knock-off earner for someone.

 

I've looked at very many photos of 38 stock, and the amount by which the centre door is recessed is minimal as shown in these two 3/4 shot of the fronts of both of the DMs in the LTM Heritage set taken at Amersham in 2012.

 

post-6983-0-30488800-1457198377.jpg post-6983-0-23973200-1457198680.jpg

 

On the actual EFE body shells, the lines marking the edges of the door give a very realistic impression of the actual door and the extent to which it is recessed, but you may not be able to appreciate that on the knock-offs. If you compare the two photos above with the photo, below, of the EFE models themselves, I hope you'll see what I mean.

 

post-6983-0-75466300-1457199465.jpg

 

The issue with the doors on the Bachmann S Stock is the way that the doors/body sides have been painted makes the doors look slightly wrong. Ignore the paint and the actual thickness of the doors looks just right.

 

But modelling accuracy down to the Nth degree doesn't always produce a model that matches our perceptions of reality.

 

Good Luck with the scratchbuilding.

 

Do share your progress with us.

 

EDIT: 6th March.

BTW, the EFE models do have the butterfly valves, and also the buttons for closing the doors on the exterior end wall of the cars, but they're transfers.

Edited by GoingUnderground
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I wonder what Bachmann will do with the EFE tube stock,it would be good if they were re-engineered as running models.

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We can hope, Martin. :)

I had forgotten about this topic, but on rereading it, I was intrigued by those resin body shells, since I also acquired a couple. I have no idea where they came from originally.

Edited by SRman

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I think I may have mentioned in another thread that MTK tried to produce etched brass 38TS kits in the 1970s. I acquired several sheets of them from Colin Massingham but they were so bad even by MTK standards that they all ended up in the bin. Rivets etched IN, roof lines etched in, no straight lines anywhere, and how anyone was suppoised to for the rood was a mystery.

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All of the 38's, 59's and 62's I've seen have a recessed door so that is what I will be doing.. 

Your recollection that the centre door is recessed on 59/62 Stock is wrong, I'm sorry to say. Pictures on page 41 of John Glover's "London Underground Rolling Stock in Colour" and page 87 of J Graeme Bruce's "The London Underground Tube Stock", both taken from a 3/4 profile, clearly show there is no recess. The door may not be totally flush, but it is not recessed. All 3 cab doors on the 59/62 Stock aged to be a rather darker colour than the aluminium body shell, which can make it look like the centre door was recessed. Photos of the '56 stock which were the prototype for the 59/62 Stock also show no evidence of the centre door being recessed. The photos on pages 91 and 92 of Brian Hardy's "Tube Stock 33-59" to which you made reference also show no indication if the centre door being recessed despite being near head-on views.

 

The centre door was recessed on Standard Stock. But that ended with 38 stock, and the centre door has been flush, or as near to flush as possible, on all subsequent tube stock builds.

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I've come to this thread while "surfing"....

 

I thought the resin bodies looked familiar as I was watching a lot on eBay a few months ago.  I remember being tempted but didn't bother, firstly, as my collection (sorry, hoard) of projects is big enough anyway.  I also decided that the old adage of "Something being too good to be true, usually is".  These looked very suspiciously like copies (i.e. knock-offs) of EFE models and the seller showed signs of having multiple lots.  

 

If there was only one lot I might forgive him; I can completely understand someone making copies of obsolete, unobtainable parts for very old models, perhaps for their own use or for themselves and a couple of mates.  But as others here have said, this is a nice little earner for someone, profiting from the efforts of others (piracy) and I resent rewarding someone for breaking the law. 

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I've come to this thread while "surfing"....

 

I thought the resin bodies looked familiar as I was watching a lot on eBay a few months ago.  I remember being tempted but didn't bother, firstly, as my collection (sorry, hoard) of projects is big enough anyway.  I also decided that the old adage of "Something being too good to be true, usually is".  These looked very suspiciously like copies (i.e. knock-offs) of EFE models and the seller showed signs of having multiple lots.  

 

If there was only one lot I might forgive him; I can completely understand someone making copies of obsolete, unobtainable parts for very old models, perhaps for their own use or for themselves and a couple of mates.  But as others here have said, this is a nice little earner for someone, profiting from the efforts of others (piracy) and I resent rewarding someone for breaking the law. 

 

Maybe this is a new 'Pirate' model... Aaaaaaaarrgh!

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