IoW light rail conversion proposed

[jim.snowdon]

21 hours ago, Christopher125 said:

 

The local council have no responsibility for Island Line or it's rolling stock, those are decisions for the franchisee and the DfT.

 

 

Adrian Shooter of Vivarail has confirmed they fit (only just, it's safe to assume), and it's widely understood that they are being proposed by SWR.

He will have better information that I (and most of us) will have, so I would believe him.

 

Jim

[roythebus]

12 hours ago, sto243 said:

The ferry is not the only way of getting stock to the island. It's the cheapest way for the steam railway bringing single items across for galas, but if you were bringing a greater number of vehicles then you could probably afford to hire a Lo-Lo (Lift On-Lift Off) vessel and crane them straight onto the tracks at the pier head.

The sea next to the track at Pier Head isn't deep enough for that sort of operation otherwise it would have been used in the past.

 

[sto243]

14 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

If that were possible it would probably have been done before now. 

Although it hasn't been done for a while, the Southern hired a floating crane from the Admiralty to move some of the O2s across in the 1920s, and they craned them straight onto the pier. All my books are in storage so I can't check the exact dates.

 

1 hour ago, roythebus said:

The sea next to the track at Pier Head isn't deep enough for that sort of operation otherwise it would have been used in the past.

 

There may have been some movement of the sand since then to change the depth, so it might require dredging which would be possible (it's only sand not rock) but might change the economics. A barge would have shallower draft than a ship, and the Solent is usually sheltered enough that you could find a weather window to do it. Mainly I just wanted to make the point that there are other options to the ferry.

 

[Gwiwer]

A D-stock car is somewhat larger than an O2 though probably rather lighter.  Things change.  Ryde pier is older than it was when the O2s were craned in and probably in less good condition.  Also the track which was used on the seaward side of the pier is no longer available meaning any crane lift would have to span onto the remaining track adjacent to the former tram pier.  Sand shifts all the time in the natural order of things meaning available water depth will also change.

[jjb1970]

Getting permission to dredge, especially in ports and inshore areas is painful these days as a result of various environmental regulations. 

[Christopher125]

On 22/03/2019 at 17:26, jim.snowdon said:

He will have better information that I (and most of us) will have, so I would believe him.

 

Jim

 

Indeed, and now confirmed by gauging professional Gareth Dennis on twitter: 

 

https://twitter.com/GarethDennis/

https://twitter.com/GarethDennis/status/1121055592171356161

 

 

"...the dynamically modelled Class 230 vehicles "fit" (i.e. can be gauge-cleared) without a problem.... A little cosy here and there, but the only thing stopping them running is the Solent!"

 

"The tunnel is flatly not an issue. Platform gauging always requires a bit of work, and there are two minor overbridges that get tight enough to warrant a closer look, but not a thing that would worry me, and I have to live and breathe this stuff."

 

"(and I ran this using data that precedes the recent physical work that "may or may not" have been done to make sure they definitely fit anyway)"

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2019 by Christopher125

[lmsforever]

Agree the 230,s  are the best units for the island and will be cost effective lets hope that everybody gets together and puts them in service.I have just watched the vidios of them on another thread and they are good.

[Mike Storey]

There was supposed to be an announcement of a decision by DfT on 31 March, which had itself been postponed from December, on the SWT Costed Proposal submitted (on time) in March 2018!!!

 

But I have seen absolutely nothing, either of an announcement, or of a reason for a further delay. Has anyone seen or heard anything? Please?

 

[eastglosmog]

On 23/03/2019 at 02:30, sto243 said:

Although it hasn't been done for a while, the Southern hired a floating crane from the Admiralty to move some of the O2s across in the 1920s, and they craned them straight onto the pier. All my books are in storage so I can't check the exact dates.

 

There may have been some movement of the sand since then to change the depth, so it might require dredging which would be possible (it's only sand not rock) but might change the economics. A barge would have shallower draft than a ship, and the Solent is usually sheltered enough that you could find a weather window to do it. Mainly I just wanted to make the point that there are other options to the ferry.

 

As a point of info, the first pair of O2's in 1923 came by Admiralty crane, the next pair came as parts to be re-erected on the island, but all the rest came by the Southampton Floating crane (owned by the Southern Railway).  The crane was capable of carrying at least 3 loco's and several carriages at once.  Unloading from the floating crane was at Medina Wharf, those that came over as a kit of parts were unloaded at St Helen's wharf, Ryde pier was only used for the first pair using the Admiralty crane, so far as I know.

[IWCR]

DFT decision  has been delayed further,  no  date specified.

 

Pete

[roythebus]

How surprising.

[RichardLong]

Sorry to hijack this thread again but some of you might be interested to know that my new book "Ryde Rail: A History of Tube Trains on the Isle of Wight" is out in the shops now and I'll be signing copies at Havenstreet this Sunday, 14 July.  Includes coverage of all the recent debates concerning the future of the line and its rolling stock.

 

Here's the back cover, by way of a teaser:

 

 

[TravisM]

I assume if they went for D Stock, it would need converting from 4th to 3rd rail; or does the electrical infrastructure need replacing as well?

[MarshLane]

Remember the VivaRail Class 230s, which are converted D Stock are heavily converted, so there is the possibility that the 230s could be diesel, electric with third rail as per the current fleet, hybrid (diesel-electric), hybrid (electric-battery) or hydrogen!  Lots of options, also given the desire to look at extensions to the network (I did say look as appose to build) I expect some form of bi-mode/hybrid 230 for the IoW.

 

Richard - superb job with the book .. a copy arrived with me a couple of days ago and the image selection, repro and overall content looks super at first glance.

 

Rich

[009 micro modeller]

On 25/04/2019 at 09:44, Christopher125 said:

"(and I ran this using data that precedes the recent physical work that "may or may not" have been done to make sure they definitely fit anyway)"

 

 

 

 

Has this work involved lowering the tunnel floor though? I realise this might be necessary to make the 230s fit but won’t it make the flooding problems worse?

[jim.snowdon]

8 hours ago, jools1959 said:

I assume if they went for D Stock, it would need converting from 4th to 3rd rail; or does the electrical infrastructure need replacing as well?

Very probably, given that it is now over 50 years since the line was electrified, and I don't think that there has been any replacement thus far.

 

Jim

[Zomboid]

The electrification on the IOW is basically life expired.

I'm not sure that de-electrifying is really a step forward, but a diesel/ hydrogen offering of a 230 is probably more of a viable prospect than renewing the electrical infrastructure.

 

The whole power supply to the island isn't (or wasn't when I knew about it) especially strong, so taking that load off would probably be welcomed by the electricity supplier. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the 3 units restriction comes from that rather than the rail equipment.

[lmsforever]

How long has this idea been floating around  lets hope that something is done keep rail alive on the island the roads seem to be clogging up every time I go there.To make any sense this operation of light rail needs to go to Newport as that will relieve congestion ,it makes you wonder that BR got it wrong in closing Ryde Newport bur then the car was king. 

[jim.snowdon]

A big part of the problem is the nature of the Island's economy - clogged solid in summer and empty in winter. Building infrastructure to cope with the summer crowds has its business case nobbled by the underuse that occurs over the winter period.

 

Jim

[Christopher125]

On 11/07/2019 at 23:56, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Has this work involved lowering the tunnel floor though? I realise this might be necessary to make the 230s fit but won’t it make the flooding problems worse?

 

I don't see why, as Gareth himself says "The tunnel is flatly not an issue..." and that's backed up by gauging profiles - the sharp curves and arched roof certainly make it tight but D78s are lower, shorter and narrower at the roofline than typical 20m+ mainline designs.

 

Until the DfT make a decision any changes have presumably been minor and occurred as a result of other work - perhaps tamping, or re-sleepering of which there's been quite a bit - and so more likely to concern track under the two overbridges mentioned as possible issues (almost certainly Rink Road and Smallbrook Lane).

Edited July 20, 2019 by Christopher125

[Ragtag]

I can't claim to have more than a passing interest after visiting as a lad, but have been looking forward to  visiting the Island Line again.

 

Our unit today definitely looked rather hard done by:

 

The ride was certainly spirited! Never again shall I malign our local 142s.

 

On the plus side the windows opened which made it a cut above the LNER Mk.4 with knackered air con I was forced to travel in in 30-odd degree heat last week!

[tetsudofan]

Many of the questions/comments above have been answered or covered in Richard's book mentioned above. It's a great read with plenty of interesting pictures. Well worth the read.

 

Keith

[Mike Storey]

I can only assume that the ongoing delay to any decision being made by the DfT about the IOW, is due to the ongoing dispute that the SWR TOC is having with the DfT. It is a great shame that such a strategic decision is being held up in this way. It really does not matter who runs the franchise, if the base case for the option promoted by SWR is sound. One must take the view that the mandarins are forestalling any liability they might have for underwriting the necessary investment, either by the TOC, NR or a ROSCO. I suspect the tight-fisted IOW Council have not helped either. This "debate" has been going on since 2014. Meanwhile the Island Line stumbles from pillar to post.

 

Tragic.

Edited July 31, 2019 by Mike Storey
Changed SWT to SWR

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, Mike Storey said:

I can only assume that the ongoing delay to any decision being made by the DfT about the IOW, is due to the ongoing dispute that the SWR TOC is having with the DfT.

 

While I wouldn't rule that out, I would also guess the IOW has been bumped down the priority list by the change in government ministers and the all encompassing big issue that has seemingly taken over all aspects of the government, and the uncertainty from which the treasury make be reluctant to okay any expenditure for something as minor new train for a little island off the south coast.

 

Either way, as you say very unfortunate.

[jim.snowdon]

6 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

While I wouldn't rule that out, I would also guess the IOW has been bumped down the priority list by the change in government ministers and the all encompassing big issue that has seemingly taken over all aspects of the government, and the uncertainty from which the treasury make be reluctant to okay any expenditure for something as minor new train for a little island off the south coast.

 

Either way, as you say very unfortunate.

On top of which, the Island could be described as a safe Conservative seat, so rather lower down the priority list for investment in winning voters minds.

 

Jim