IoW light rail conversion proposed

[zephyrman]

Just read the book "The Island Great Train Robbery" You can see how hard it is to oppose government to an obvious catastrophe. Its no different now. Closed doors. Personally I think the council should pay for their mistakes. The Vectarail thing was a right stinker too. More council bloodindedness. They would not allow Vectarail to operate unless they had the track. BR would not sell the track unless the council allowed them to operate. And so the circle went until The Parish Council set fire to the coach at Droxford. Or should I not have suggested that. :-o But the Vectarail Coach still lives....well in model form. Here are some partly finished pics.I have since added light etc.

[zephyrman]

Not a good pic. Will post more tomorrow!

[Edwin_m]

The miss leading thing of trams is the civil engineering required. As with tran scheme which allways runs millions overbudget because of the lack of understanding of the stability a tram system needs. The Island cannot afford that kind of monetary mistake. Trams may be light rail but they need hard 100% fully engineered trackbeds as they cannot cope with the kind of misalignments experianced with Heavy Rail. Rowborough will allways continue to move and would never be stable enough for trams. Let alone overhead power lines requiring added infrastructure costs. Simple solution is to regauge the tunnel and Rink Road bridge ( or turn it into a L/C and make use of cascaded Diesel stock or modify it. A gauging test was carried out in the 2000's by SWT and its surprising what the results were. 141-3 Classes fit as do 150 and 170's although appatently SWT" could not justify placing such a highly technological unit the Island". lol

How about a 313 or a 315? 

[Suzie]

313 has DC capability for use in tunnels with reduced clearance!

[Trog]

I believe Network Rail had to do quite a lot of improvement work on the Stourbridge Town branch so the people movers did not shake themselves apart.

So as Zephyrman says getting the track fit for more delicate stock and keeping it that way could be a very major expense.

[Nearholmer]

So, what transport problem or opportunity on the IoW is it that rail, light, heavy or intermediate, is actually suitable to solve or exploit?

 

From my observation, the transport problem on the IoW is very heavy car useage, leading to localised congestion, at some places, at some times, making for annoyingly extended journey-times by car and bus.

 

The solution seems more likely to come from things that would make people use cars a lot less, and buses a lot more, rather than increasing rail use/provision, methinks.

 

Things like:

 

- really biting, "take no prisoners", congestion-charging, focused on flattening-out peaks in car use in the busiest places;

 

- really good bus services, using modern, fast vehicles, operating at no greater than ten-minute headways on main routes;

 

- good car parks at "car/bus interchange stations", where low-use rural roads meet main arteries;

 

- road improvements focused entirely on improving bus transit times (even if that makes car transit times worse!);

 

- co-opting old railway infrastructure as bus-only roads;

 

- forbidding "out of town" shopping complexes (like that big supermarket at the back of Ryde), because they generate huge amounts of short-distance car journeys. Foster "within walking distance" shopping facilities instead.

 

Being brutal, I can't really see a need for rail on the IoW, except as a tourist facility.

 

I'll leave-off winding everyone up now!

 

Kevin

[lmsforever]

The island is unique in that it is both a holiday destination and home  to many people this means that a transport network has a very difficult task to perform ,I am a regular visitor to the island and use the buses as well as the roads.The roads are narrow but on the whole cope well and only need serious upgrading in Ryde and Newport with a park and ride at Cowes west Wight is a paradise of tranqulity and should not need any roadworks.The railway is used and is needed but what the future holds is in the hands of the council a body not known for wise decisions like all local councils in the UK.I cant see trams or Parry vehicles on the island or redundant Manchester trams its got to be heavy rail with improved infrastructure this will give a future for the island.The buses provide an excellent service and offer good connections at Newport with modern vehicles, its good to ride around the island for a morning with friendly drivers and good information on board and at stops.   Logicaly  the bus is the way forward and if there are more bus lanes newer buses there will always be a rising patronage and if Vectis continue to offer crush your car and have free bus rides it can only prosper.

[Trevellan]

So, what transport problem or opportunity on the IoW is it that rail, light, heavy or intermediate, is actually suitable to solve or exploit?

 

SNIPPED

 

Wow. Light the blue touchpaper and stand clear Kevin 

 

Unfettered car use on the IoW is undoubtedly a factor, but the Conservative councillors echo the national party line by doing everything to woo the motoring vote, even if it has a detrimental effect - and it does. This immediately rules out a number of your proposals.

 

The biggest single cause of delays to buses on the island is not congestion, but on-street parking, which in some cases can convert significant lengths of the highway into a single lane. A substantial chunk of the island's housing stock has no room for off-road parking, yet residents expect to be able to park on the highway, even though it constrains road capacity. Another issue is the phasing of traffic signals, with any bus priority measures no longer effective, if they ever existed at all. I'm not suggesting that bus drivers should never see a red traffic signal, but they most definitely should NOT see a green light change in front of them. Sadly, they frequently do, and this can often be just to allow a single car out of a side road. Utter madness.

 

The Southern Vectis network is, by most standards, already comprehensive, with metro-style frequencies on key routes, e.g up to 8 buses per hour (bph) on the Newport-Cowes corridor and 6bph on the Newport-Ryde corridor. Any improvements would need to be driven by determined priority measures, as you suggest. However, these would be unpopular with the majority of islanders who see unrestricted car use as a birthright.Having been involved with transport policy and planning for many years now I know that nationally there is a hard core of motorists who would never use the bus, but might be persuaded to use a train or tram. Indeed, the success of light rail systems in cities such as Manchester, Sheffield and Nottingham has provided hard evidence of this trend.

 

Therefore, the remaining rail route IS needed, because the parallel road route is constrained and does become congested. One reason why light rail is seen as a sound proposal is that operating costs should (in theory) be lower, while being able to operate higher frequencies. It may also allow on-street running, although this would require substantial civil engineering, as well as cross-party political support. The last time a major transport infrastructure project was attempted on the island it was sunk by political squabbling and sniping, plus (I'm told) unreasonable demands by Network Rail. Former rail alignments still exist as cycle routes, but most would be unsuitable for any meaningful busway conversion.

 

All of the above is important, but the key issue is funding. No-one seems able to explain why Island Line costs so much, yet generates so little in the way of revenue. Until we see detailed cost breakdowns, it is difficult to know how and where to make savings. The proposal by Christopher Garnett does at least bring the IoW Steam Railway into Ryde, albeit well outside the town centre. However, St Johns Road station has a large car park which is used as a park and ride facility by commuters. The Isle of Wight Bus Museum is also located nearby, providing another traffic objective.

 

And finally, that big supermarket at the back of Ryde couldn't realistically be located anywhere else in the town and it does at least have a regular bus service. However, we now have a new ASDA being built on the outskirts of Newport which will generate additional local traffic and the potential for even more congestion.

 

I hope all of this is helpful background from a professional transport planner, who has also been a local for the last three years.

[t8hants]

You know very well that the biggest problem to Island transport is Vectis bus and it adherence to old style double-deck buses that are only ever half full of the only people that can afford to ride them - pensioners.

Apart from a few direct services, they wander all over the Island desperately looking for centers of population to try and drum customers, with vehicles that are too large.

The average modern bus is far too wide and too long. It should not be too hard to come up with a mini bus that is also disabled friendly.

Operating as a monopoly the bus company has always been the biggest hindrance to Island transport.

the whole purpose for the community rail scheme is so that it will fail, thereby releasing the last large parcels of building land in most of the east Wight towns.

Without the railway the time expired pier at Ryde can go, saving on costly maintenance, which will be handy for somebody.

[Trevellan]

You know very well that the biggest problem to Island transport is Vectis bus and it adherence to old style double-deck buses that are only ever half full of the only people that can afford to ride them - pensioners.

Apart from a few direct services, they wander all over the Island desperately looking for centers of population to try and drum customers, with vehicles that are too large.

The average modern bus is far too wide and too long. It should not be too hard to come up with a mini bus that is also disabled friendly.

Operating as a monopoly the bus company has always been the biggest hindrance to Island transport.

the whole purpose for the community rail scheme is so that it will fail, thereby releasing the last large parcels of building land in most of the east Wight towns.

Without the railway the time expired pier at Ryde can go, saving on costly maintenance, which will be handy for somebody.

 

While I appreciate that everyone will have their own viewpoint, your comments illustrate the difficulties in even having a rational and intelligent debate, let alone making physical progress.

 

I'm afraid your statements are wildly inaccurate and unnecessarily negative. However, reading between the lines I suspect you are one of the many motorists mentioned in my earlier post who would never use buses and therefore resent them.

 

My posts on this thread are intended to inform the debate in a constructive sense. Perhaps you could come up with some suggestions that actually bear some resemblance to reality?

[Nearholmer]

Throwing more fuel on the fire:

 

"Therefore, the remaining rail route IS needed, because the parallel road route is constrained and does become congested."

 

Entirely agree (i've sat in that traffic jam, with two tired and very grumpy children in the back seat), but not as a route for things that run on rails; as a route for things that look pretty much the same, can do pretty much the same, but run on rubber-tyres, and can fan-out to serve dispersed "targets" at the southern end.

 

Truly aggressive and well-targeted congestion charging; sensible land-use planning to foster in-town, rather than dispersed, commerce; positively violent parking controls; and, re-planned bus provision could solve the problems.

 

There would always be rich refuseniks, who would pay any price to drive their car, so soak them for every penny they've got, if they insist on driving to busy places at busy times, and spend the earnings on the buses. Being selfish should come at a very high price indeed.

 

OK, I admit that the politics might be tricky!

 

But, the least that could be done would be to point out, very forcibly, to the residents of the IoW that they have a choice in all this. Then, if they want to continue to vote themselves into a seasonal "hell" of congestion, and deter money-spending tourists from returning, so be it.

 

But, asking them to waste money on an inappropriate solution to their problem won't help anybody.

 

Kevin

 

(You will have to work out for yourselves where I've deliberately gone into Hyperbolic mode!)

[t8hants]

Whilst you are correct I am a motorist who remains so because the bus service grossly overpriced and is more like a magical mystery tour.

Half the world operates using small vehicles the double-decker bus is not needed for most of the time.

You might have to put on a few more, but that is not a problem, and unexpected increases in customers could be dealt with by drivers advising more vehicles need on a route by radio.

I am afraid that congestion charging to force people to use the monopoly that is causing the congestion will not be popular.

ALL modern shopping needs to be done by car, unless you make multiple trips, you cant blame the motorist.

I cannot see a single advantage in the proposed community scheme, but lots of advantages for the money men if it fails.

If the steam railway makes it to RSJ it will need the land as a car park, or it is not viable.

[Joseph_Pestell]

There is nothing presumably to stop another bus operator running services on the island to compete with Vectis. Their monopoly may be a problem but there are few if any other rural areas of England with such frequent bus services.

 

With Portsmouth - Ryde long operated by smaller vessels, it is worth questioning whether the pier in its current form is really necessary. Perhaps a perfectly adequate replacement could be created linking with trains ( or light rail vehicles ) at Esplanade station, creating a transport hub where the buses would also be convenient to the Portsmouth ferry.

[Joseph_Pestell]

With regard to suitable future stock for the railway line, there are certainly suitable metre-gauge train designs out there which would meet all the load-gauge requirements but could  run on standard-gauge bogies. And what about other Metro systems such as Paris? Suitable trains there due to be replaced.

[t8hants]

An opportunity was missed in not sheet piling the whole of Ryde pier and making it a solid mole.

If an adequate rail based system is to operate then Ventnor must be reconnected, and ideally, but probably quite impossible Ryde to Newport and even West Cowes.

The principle problem that due to poor road planning nearly every major route crossing the Island tangles with Newport town traffic, neither wants to meet the other.

[Nearholmer]

"ALL modern shopping needs to be done by car, unless you make multiple trips, you cant blame the motorist."

 

Did Ocado, Amazon, and the like, not get to the IoW yet? (That is a serious question, not me being sarcastic)

 

Nationally, about 12% of retail trade is now over the internet, much higher in some sectors than others, and for food slightly lower, and it is creeping upwards.

 

Standard operating practice for my family, most of my friends, my colleagues at work, and all our neighbours, is to have the "weekly shopping" delivered to the front door, and to order a very high percentage of other things (clothes, books, toy trains, you know, the essentials) on-line, and, again, get it delivered.

 

I can't think of a time in the past forty years when it was less necessary to "go shopping" than it is currently, and a small fleet of transit vans buzzing about the place uses a lot less road-space than everyone driving to the shops.

 

K

Edited August 10, 2016 by Nearholmer

[lmsforever]

No bus company is going to have extra buses sitting in a yard in case extras are needed it would soon go bust ,Vectis will not get any competition due to the nature of the island its not big enough to support two major companies.Using mini buses has been tried many times and is not viable ,fares might seem high but weekly, monthly tickets are available and are doubtless very popular so you don't have to pay the top rate.Pensioners keep the IOW economy going so don't knock us more people are going to the island every year so the railway will prosper as will the buses.Why don't you have a go at your local councillor to improve the situation regards the council they do listen sometimes and of course you could stand for council yourself.

[t8hants]

I have far more self respect then to allow myself to get involved in politics, and have long thought that anyone who puts themselves forward as a candidate has immediately displayed a reason why they are unsuitable.

Much better would be all those of average intelligence on the electoral role would have their name in a 'lottery' and then be chosen randomly, serve for three years and then never serve again.

Dispensing with party affiliation and dynasties in one go.

[Christopher125]

Being brutal, I can't really see a need for rail on the IoW, except as a tourist facility.

Try living here, experience what life is really like for people trying to get about and you'll soon realise it's importance especially for those who live along the route - unlike most rural lines on the mainland you can't just pop in your car to Portsmouth Harbour and you can't even get a bus up Ryde Pier due to the severe weight restriction. For those who live in Sandown Bay in particular the line is not a nice-to-have, it's crucial for offsetting the cost and time penalty of living the far side of the Solent to the jobs and opportunities on the mainland.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Christopher125

[Red Fox]

Without the railway the time expired pier at Ryde can go, saving on costly maintenance, which will be handy for somebody.

 

Wightlink own the non-rail parts of the pier.  I can't see them giving up on the Ryde Pier service unless someones pays a big chunk of money and dredges a channel for them to allow a service to Ryde at all states of the tide.

[t8hants]

Wightlink own the non-rail parts of the pier.  I can't see them giving up on the Ryde Pier service unless someones pays a big chunk of money and dredges a channel for them to allow a service to Ryde at all states of the tide.

 

A potential Wightlink's point of view could be that with no rail link the foot passengers can go via Fishbourne and get there by Bus from the proposed 'Transport Hub' at Ryde Esplanade.

Long term, isn't the major sandbank moving eastwards at the rate of 1.5 meters a year, so one day dredging may be inevitable,

The pier is not indispensable, nor is the ferry service from it.

This why I think it vital the rail link remains part of a wider franchise.

[Nearholmer]

Christopher

 

I'm not arguing that there is no need for a protected-from-congestion, reasonably-high-capacity, rapid-transit, public-transport provision, down the eastern side of the island; there blindingly obviously is such a need. And, across the northern spine too.

 

What I am arguing is that steel wheel on steel rail isn't the best way to achieve such a provision in the circumstances.

 

My personal view is that, in the circumstances, it would be an expensive, and inflexible, way of achieving the objective.

 

(And, I really, really don't think that the present rail arrangement fits the bill. So much infrastructure is employed to deliver so little effective capacity!)

 

Kevin

[roythebus]

As has been said, there is not really room for a second "large" bus operator on the island. Several small operations have started and failed because of the Vectis monopoly, and no amount of anti-competition laws will change that.

 

Regarding large double deckers, they are not that much dearer to buy and run than smaller single deckers. I'm constantly having that discussion on my local internet forum by those who see large double deckers running lightly used evening services. If you have a large double decker, you can and do use it all the time. why have a small single decker to run instead of it when traffic is light? Double the vehicles, running costs, standing costs, parking , road tax, insurance. It really doesn't add up. 

 

Any changes to bus timetables have to be registered with the local Traffic Commissioners offices with 60 days notice, so drivers radioing in to order more "standby" buses to cover peaks is not an option. Duplicates can run without notice but need planning for known peaks with drivers, vehicles and schedules in place.

 

Basically there is no easy answer to the IoW electric railway option without spending a lot of money. The electric supply system is life-expired, not done too bad since 1968, the layout needs altering to run an even-interval service, and the 1938 tube stock, well, I'm amazed how it's kept going so long! 313/508s as replacement may be an answer if they fit; they may be lower than "normal" stock but they are a bit wider in places. But then 313/508s are a product of the mid 1970s and spares for those are now difficult to source. My son's new edict is as assistant fleet engineer looking after the "heritage" ex BR EMU fleet for the Southern and is well aware of their shortcomings.

 

Introducing a slightly political stance, maybe if we'd have voted to satay in the EU, then EU funding may well have been available to provide new light rail vehicles (trams) for use on the Island under disability access regulations as has been done elsewhere (Blackpool springs to mind). why keep fobbing the Island off with secondhand stuff that is almost obsolete? Get something new and modern that people will actually WANT to ride in on a daily basis. We all love the 38 tube stock but it is not really fit for daily use in this age.

 

Edited to add would we really want to see the current controlling interests of Southern Vectis (Go-ahead Group) running the Island railway given their current mis-management of the Southern franchise? As for the mention of trams needing a more stable track base than heavy rail, I wouldn't say the Spratt & Winkle track base is particularly stable and that's had trams on it for about 20 years now with no major problems. Mention of Thumpers, they too are obsolete; BR mk1 stock is notorious for its susceptibility to tin worm, ask any preserved railway who runs the stuff! I've heard the 313/508s have a similar problem. I remember failing a 508 in Staines Depot one day in about 1983 when I found a huge hole in the guard's compartment doorway, and they were only 2 years old then!

Edited August 13, 2016 by roythebus

[DavidH]

Whilst you are correct I am a motorist who remains so because the bus service grossly overpriced and is more like a magical mystery tour.

Half the world operates using small vehicles the double-decker bus is not needed for most of the time.

You might have to put on a few more, but that is not a problem, and unexpected increases in customers could be dealt with by drivers advising more vehicles need on a route by radio.

I am afraid that congestion charging to force people to use the monopoly that is causing the congestion will not be popular.

ALL modern shopping needs to be done by car, unless you make multiple trips, you cant blame the motorist.

I cannot see a single advantage in the proposed community scheme, but lots of advantages for the money men if it fails.

If the steam railway makes it to RSJ it will need the land as a car park, or it is not viable.

 

The idea of using lots of small vehicles has been tried already, in the early/middle 1980s - if I remember correctly. E.g. in Oxford they replaced most of the fleet with Ford Transits - and many other operators followed with minibuses (called variously Buzzas, Fox Cubs, etc.) - all running on very frequent interval services, meaning no waiting at the bus stop. Yes, they were popular as you guessed, but so popular the next generation of the vehicles quickly needed more seats - e.g. Mercedes Benz conversions, or Optare CityPacers based on a VW chassis. Then moving the story quickly on, proper buses were taken on - MCW/Optare MetroRiders, Dennis Darts, short Volvos, with 30-40 or so seats ... back to nearly full size buses.

 

In Oxford they have a city of fleet of almost entirely double-deckers now (their fleet list is online!), which should tell us something about the economics and practicalities of moving a lot of people on popular public transport.

 

And although you talk about the "monopoly causing the congestion", the congestion caused by lots of minibuses running on 5-minute headways all trying to get into centres of population causes as bad, if not worse congestion. (And is nothing compared to the space taken up by 50 cars all containing approx one person, set against a double decker carrying 80.)

 

I agree with you about modern shopping needing a car - but that is just a lifestyle choice many of us (me included) make. We used to do it without cars, we can do it without cars again - and we can now shop online too (as covered elsewhere, I didn't see all the other replies as I wrote this). It's just a passing phase.

Edited August 13, 2016 by DavidH

[t8hants]

Actually I am not sure if the Island would have qualified for EU funding as I seem to remember a previous government went to some lengths to prove to the EU that we were not in fact an 'island'.

Iirc this was based on our apparently superb communications with the mainland, with the result it prevented us getting subsidised ferry fares and a raft of other benefits available to help island economies.

Now we are out of the EU we will become part of 'ampshire with the embarrassingly wide river Solent preventing us enjoying (?) the full benefits of being part of that county

 

On the shopping front, when we did it without cars, I seem to remember the wife didn't work, and she would  walk to the shops to or three times a day, fetching only what she had strength to carry.

Online shopping is often let down by the abysmal way your parcel is treated by the courier companies once it started its journey.

Edited August 13, 2016 by t8hants