IoW light rail conversion proposed

[Zomboid]

I'm not sure where the money will come from to fix the island line. How long will patch and mend keep the pier standing? Cutting off Newport and Cowes was clearly a mistake with hindsight... Not sure that turning the railway into a bus route is the answer, it's mostly single track, so is the package of land wide enough for two lanes of buses?

 

Edited to add would we really want to see the current controlling interests of Southern Vectis (Go-ahead Group) running the Island railway given their current mis-management of the Southern franchise?

Off topic, and I'm no apologist for Govia, but they don't have a franchise on southern. It's a management contract, and everything they do is specified by the DfT, they have no scope to do anything more or less.

So whilst I am not endorsing them to run a railway, they are not to blame for what's going on on Southern.

[wombatofludham]

The idea that "modern shopping needs a car" is a myth.  It's people's lack of organisation that's to blame.

​I grew up in a household without a car.  We did a weekly shop and managed to get it all back on a Midland Red home-built single decker with an entrance designed for mountain goats and seats designed for persons of restricted growth, not a burly miner and his two equally robust sons.  We used to walk to the village butchers for our meat, and had our milk delivered.  In fact, the household didn't get a car until I passed my test at 17.  It can be done and without multiple trips.

 

Where I live I'm a good 40-50 miles from a big shopping centre, and our nearest crinkly tin emporia of tat are Aberystwyth, Bangor or Wrexham, all more than 40 miles away.  Yet even I can get home delivery on groceries courtesy of Asda Wrexham, so I can do a monthly major shop without leaving home, for a lot less than my Saab Swedish State Barge would take in fuel.  The past two Christmas shops have been a mix of locally sourced craft items from local artists, and online purchases.  Which has been wonderful as I cannot stand busy shopping centres and other people, their obnoxious brats and their seeming inability to put their ****ing phones down for five minutes, and I've put a few quid into local businesses and craft workers to boot.  Even when I do use the car for shopping, which is rare, I combine it with trips I'm making for other purposes, so I'll pop to the corner shop for a top up of milk and stuff on the way back from the doctors, or pop to Halfords or the electrical stores whilst visiting friends and relatives in the Midlands.

 

​It's called organisation.  It would be nice if other people tried it occasionally, and traffic levels would drop dramatically.  I've halved my mileage switching to on-line shopping and doing what we Town Planners call "linked trips".

[The Evil Bus Driver]

No need. It is apparently well known that 4'8.5" originates from the width of a horse's arse. Though I dont recall the Douglas horse trams were narrower gauge in that respect!

 

Dava

Brunel must have had some rather odd horses then

[SwissRailPassion]

The weekly shop is on the way out. Buy fresh every few days to avoid waste. I abandoned weekly shopping three years ago and cut my bills in half. I go to the grocer who sells at almost half the price of a supermarket and use the local butcher who is also much cheaper and far better in quality, the rest comes from Aldi. As a result, I hardly throw anything edible away and save huge amounts. Above all, the taste is what counts and with fresh ingredients everything tastes so much better.

I learnt to cook, it's easy, and after a couple of years I prefer eating at home with friends as the food is better than dining out. If I can do it anyone can.

[roythebus]

Actually I am not sure if the Island would have qualified for EU funding as I seem to remember a previous government went to some lengths to prove to the EU that we were not in fact an 'island'.

Iirc this was based on our apparently superb communications with the mainland, with the result it prevented us getting subsidised ferry fares and a raft of other benefits available to help island economies.

Now we are out of the EU we will become part of 'ampshire with the embarrassingly wide river Solent preventing us enjoying (?) the full benefits of being part of that county

 

On the shopping front, when we did it without cars, I seem to remember the wife didn't work, and she would  walk to the shops to or three times a day, fetching only what she had strength to carry.

Online shopping is often let down by the abysmal way your parcel is treated by the courier companies once it started its journey.

 

Without getting too politically off the Island Line track, we aren't out of the EU yet and are seemingly unlikely to do so for quite a few years. One problem with UK governments is that they choose not to go cap-in-hand to the EU for projects that other countries seem to unfairly benefit from. the TTA, a metre gauge rural heritage line in Belgium has recently had millions in grants from the EU tourist funds and state funds.

 

To answer other bits, it was Pete Hendy, now Sir Peter who, many years ago advocated replacing London's double deckers with a fleet of minibuses. He tried this on routes 28 and 31 IIRC. the result was not satisfactory. Three times the number of drivers and parking spaces were needed, three times the insurance, three times the funds for O licences... It makes sense to run the biggest buses that can be justified. Other places tried the same and it didn't work for much the same reasons. there's already a shortage of bus drivers in the UK, a lot of companies have to rely on migrant labour. The one I work for is probably 80% migrants for the driving staff. How much that will change if and when we leave the EU and if the migrants are told to "go back where they came from" is a moot point. but, bus driving isn't a sexy enough job for British school leavers!

 

As for closing Ryde Pier, that is in my opinion not an option. there's no public transport from Fishbourne to Ryde or anywhere else. There's not enough parking at Fishbourne for commuter car traffic. Remember a lot of islanders work on the mainland and the railway and fast cats are as much of the daily commute as the Underground is to Londoners. The hovercraft couldn't cope with the additional commuter traffic and stops well away from the centre of Portsmouth. also what would happen to the rail-borne incoming holiday traffic?

 

I'd suggest that the Island Line's passenger revenue is grossly understated for reasons already mentioned, i.e. none of the "mainland" through tickets are allocated to Island Line revenue! we saw that in the Beeching years and since, with revenues taken at the booking office window at the branch line stations being accounted for but nothing else! Someone somewhere must come up with an answer soon, and an answer that will ensure the Island's main line continues to fulfil its role for the foreseeable future.

[PhilJ W]

IIRC there was a proposed rail tunnel from Lymington to Yarmouth. If such a tunnel had been built it would have changed the entire dynamic of the islands railways. I doubt that such a tunnel would be contemplated now but who knows?

[Foulounoux]

Well having just come back from my first weekend on the island since 1971 some observations

 

Portsmouth fishborne by car 155£ but reduced via hotel package

Spent more time queuing at Portsmouth on Friday afternoon than the whole rest of the journey

Return was much better just traffic getting out from old Portsmouth to the m275

 

Ventnor station site is so far out of town that it's difficult to see how it would be feasible even putting aside the industrial site occupants interests

 

How much car traffic would be removed by a rail network on the island. Holidaymakers with luggage unlikely to give up the car

 

So what traffic would a revitalised network have

Islanders heading to Portsmouth or Southampton for the big shops

Mainlanders on a day out to the island

 

But would locals switch to rail when like elsewhere a lot of development has taken place out of town and away from likely stations

 

And you have to remember how close everything is and the geometry of being able to cut across the island Ryde to Yarmouth 20mins compared to Portsmouth to lymington 1hr if you are lucky

 

I would love the island to extend its network but can't see if it was my investment how I'd make a return

 

Having said that I've turned down interviews for senior positions on the island not because of the crossing but because I'd want to do it as a foot passenger and the job locations on the island weren't on bus routes

 

So here's blue sky thinking

 

Reopen what you can of the rail network

Set up a shared taxi operation using minibuses aka the Turkish dolmus which would run from each station to serve local destinations

 

Colin

[petethemole]

I've met a number of people who commuted from the Island to or via Southampton, who kept two items of personal transport (bikes and/or cars), one at each ferry port, and travelled across as foot passengers. It was apparently cheaper despite the cost of parking and faster, as they took the hydrofoil.

[roythebus]

Yes, several of my island friends have done the same over the years. If you are an island resident you do get bit of a discount on the ferries for your car. The car has to be registered on the island. I've heard there's a lot of cars registered to a certain railway station...

[11B]

Well, train or bus seems to be an issue?

 

Why not have the best of both worlds and send down some 142's

 

Coat, hat and run for the door......

 

Ian

[Christopher125]

There's been a recent development regarding the wording of the ITT; Government yields to protests over Island Line plan

 

They've ditched the idea of a solution making it 'self-sustaining' for the more realistic and less threatening 'more sustainable'. According to the DfT letter it's all just a 'misunderstanding'...

 

And you have to remember how close everything is and the geometry of being able to cut across the island Ryde to Yarmouth 20mins compared to Portsmouth to lymington 1hr if you are lucky
 

 

Woah, 20mins? Nearer 40mins if the roads are quiet, but an hour if your unlucky.

[Derekstuart]

A few observations about buses, if I may.

 

Firstly a double decker takes up less space on the road than many single deckers. DD being on average about 9m and most SD being 10m (exceptions apply of course).

In the busy summer months those 'deckers are usually full of tourists who use the upper deck as it gives better visibility- as other have said a fleet of small winter buses and a fleet of large summer buses is a non starter.

 

But over the issue of 'expensive' buses- often far more per mile than a train- there's a fundamental problem with the concession pass schemes employed by most transport authorities- I believe Hampshire use this ridiculous version: Concession passes (OAP and disabled) are paid as a percentage, around 50%, of the average cash fare (which includes weekly, daily, monthly etc) and that means with sensible cash fares you get SFA for passes, which has a serious affect on revenue. To balance this it means cash fares have to go up to compensate. It's a symptom of modern life that fewer and fewer people are paying more and more. It is fashionable to knock bus companies as greedy- but the truth is far removed from that. Margins are very, very tight these days.

[PenrithBeacon]

I think conversion to trams would be a great idea. Get those cars off the road and massively improve public transport for the residents.

[PhilJ W]

I did mention earlier about a proposed tunnel connecting the island to the mainland. I do know that this is highly unlikely but this is my suggestion for a tunnel. Divert the Island line just south of Ryde into a tunnel running to the west of the town. The tunnel running beneath the Solent to Gosport which will be served by a station built underground. The tunnel then turning east beneath Southamton Water to either terminate or connect with the existing lines. The tunnel(s) will of course be built to main line dimensions. Such a scheme of course is highly unlikely on cost grounds alone let alone possible objections from other groups.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Without getting too politically off the Island Line track, we aren't out of the EU yet and are seemingly unlikely to do so for quite a few years. One problem with UK governments is that they choose not to go cap-in-hand to the EU for projects that other countries seem to unfairly benefit from. the TTA, a metre gauge rural heritage line in Belgium has recently had millions in grants from the EU tourist funds and state funds.

 

To answer other bits, it was Pete Hendy, now Sir Peter who, many years ago advocated replacing London's double deckers with a fleet of minibuses. He tried this on routes 28 and 31 IIRC. the result was not satisfactory. Three times the number of drivers and parking spaces were needed, three times the insurance, three times the funds for O licences... It makes sense to run the biggest buses that can be justified. Other places tried the same and it didn't work for much the same reasons. there's already a shortage of bus drivers in the UK, a lot of companies have to rely on migrant labour. The one I work for is probably 80% migrants for the driving staff. How much that will change if and when we leave the EU and if the migrants are told to "go back where they came from" is a moot point. but, bus driving isn't a sexy enough job for British school leavers!

 

As for closing Ryde Pier, that is in my opinion not an option. there's no public transport from Fishbourne to Ryde or anywhere else. There's not enough parking at Fishbourne for commuter car traffic. Remember a lot of islanders work on the mainland and the railway and fast cats are as much of the daily commute as the Underground is to Londoners. The hovercraft couldn't cope with the additional commuter traffic and stops well away from the centre of Portsmouth. also what would happen to the rail-borne incoming holiday traffic?

 

I'd suggest that the Island Line's passenger revenue is grossly understated for reasons already mentioned, i.e. none of the "mainland" through tickets are allocated to Island Line revenue! we saw that in the Beeching years and since, with revenues taken at the booking office window at the branch line stations being accounted for but nothing else! Someone somewhere must come up with an answer soon, and an answer that will ensure the Island's main line continues to fulfil its role for the foreseeable future.

 

I was not suggesting that ferry services to Ryde should be abolished. Just that the pier may be redundant in the context of the catamarans which could perhaps get a bit further inshore than the old boats and therefore moor up at a jetty / pontoon close enough to Esplanade station for a decent interchange there (bus/rail/ferry).

[Zomboid]

In this fantasy land, said tunnel should have a station under Portsmouth (harbour, probably), another one under Gosport, and then run up the old line to Fareham where it could then go to Southampton or towards Winchester and London. Might even be able to compete with the direct route to Portsmouth if trains could run fast & non stop Eastleigh - Fareham.

 

Of course it'll never happen.

[Joseph_Pestell]

No, it won't. So what is clearly needed is a better offering by way of ferries. The catamarans are convenient at Portsmouth (Harbour Station) but inconvenient at Ryde (end of the pier which must be a big part of the railway's costs). The hovercraft is good at Ryde, adjacent to Esplanade Station and buses, but pretty useless at Southsea.

 

I don't have sea charts for Ryde but it does not look so very difficult either to get the catamarans close to the shore at Esplanade or else build a hovercraft terminal at Portsmouth Harbour.

[petethemole]

I think noise might be a problem if the hovercraft were to operate from closer to the harbour and city. Where they are in Southsea is some way from residential areas but on bus routes.

[cunningduck]

I don't have sea charts for Ryde but it does not look so very difficult either to get the catamarans close to the shore at Esplanade or else build a hovercraft terminal at Portsmouth Harbour.

There isn't enough space around Portsmouth Harbour station due to the tight harbour entrance and congested shoreline (because I don't think the space next to HMS Warrior is big enough/accessible enough) and a displacement vessel would need a dredged channel to Ryde owing to the shallow approaches (very shallow).

[lmsforever]

Agree about tight margins in bus companies this year so far in Wales have gone bst and doubtless more will follow. 

[Christopher125]

No, it won't. So what is clearly needed is a better offering by way of ferries. The catamarans are convenient at Portsmouth (Harbour Station) but inconvenient at Ryde (end of the pier which must be a big part of the railway's costs).

 

As can be seen below, Ryde Pier is half a mile long for good reason:

 

Ryde Ferry Terminal Pier - Low Tide by gundust™, on Flickr

 

It's an expensive bit of infrastructure but that's not unusual for many regional and rural lines - no one is questioning the future of the Cambrian Coast, S&C, Conwy Valley Line despite the huge sums required to keep them open. If Island Line was physically connected to the national network and seen as just another branch people would quite rightly see it as small-beer in the context of the whole network.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Christopher125

[Derekstuart]

Christopher,

 

I beg to differ. Plenty of people in the past HAVE questioned those very routes. The S&C came close to closing several times in the 70s and 80s- I would imagine that the amount of work to Ribblehead viaduct might have had a bearing on that.

 

One only needs to look at that rather dismal creature, dr beeching, to see that it isn't just the IoW that is savaged by cost cutting agendas. Mind you, he was taking back handers from a very bent politician.

 

 

Separately, can anyone tell me what was the reason that this particular line of the IoW remained open? In view of the beeching/marples report it does seem very odd to keep open a route that doesn't really do anything.

[Foulounoux]

Extend the pier a bit and no need for the ferries.....my wife's suggestion as she doesn't take to boats very well even a slight swell causes her problems

 

Have to send all the vessels round the long way though

 

Only a suggestion

[Derekstuart]

How about borrowing some Dutch engineers and filling the Solent in, with some sort of land reclamation project.

 

 

Extend the pier a bit and no need for the ferries.....my wife's suggestion as she doesn't take to boats very well even a slight swell causes her problems

Have to send all the vessels round the long way though

Only a suggestion

[Trevellan]

Separately, can anyone tell me what was the reason that this particular line of the IoW remained open? In view of the beeching/marples report it does seem very odd to keep open a route that doesn't really do anything.

 

It has already been explained that the main road between Ryde and Shanklin becomes very congested and the the parallel rail route provides a useful alternative. Therefore, the decision to retain that section of line was pragmatic rather than odd. A move to more frequent and evenly spaced tram operation would enhance its utility.

 

What we have seen in recent years is a substantial increase in traffic congestion on former rail alignments (Ryde-Newport-Cowes), making even local journey times unpredictable. The shortsightedness of those 1966 closures is now being demonstrated almost daily. Unfortunately, a push for sustainable tourism was three decades away and the principle is also being revived in local authority policy.

 

We now have a Task Force on the island, headed by no less a luminary than Christoper Garnett, which is set to address a number of problems. For example, Newport is being choked by traffic and badly needs a relief road, as well as a re-think about access in general. It could also benefit from at least two Park & Ride hubs similar to those serving Salisbury.

 

In short, lots of problems and no easy solutions, despite some of the bigoted and misguided comments earlier in the thread.