IoW light rail conversion proposed

[Zomboid]

Haven't First/MTR just handed back the keys?

 

The 483s will be essentially worthless by now, and the "looking for a good home" approach offers potentially positive PR.

[009 micro modeller]

9 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Haven't First/MTR just handed back the keys?

 

Although they used to expensively lease them, I thought a few years ago the leasing company actually transferred ownership to the franchise holder, so they are not leased. I’m not sure how this has worked with subsequent franchise holders.

[Mike_Walker]

27 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Haven't First/MTR just handed back the keys?

 

The 483s will be essentially worthless by now, and the "looking for a good home" approach offers potentially positive PR.

No, they have negotiated a termination of the franchise (paying £33 million) as required to allow the ERMA to continue whilst the DfT and First/MTR negotiate a new Direct Award for SWR.

[Dunsignalling]

20 hours ago, jools1959 said:

I wonder if there going to sell them at £1 each which the original leasing company sold them to Stagecoach/Island Railway?  If they are, I might be in the market to get one as I used to drive them on the Bakerloo when I worked on London Transport.  Just need the trailer to go with it .

Even if you got one for a quid, it would cost you a few thousand to get it back off the island. I'd think most will get cut up where they stand. Much cheaper to move in smaller bits.

 

John

[RichardLong]

Apparently 006 is back in service today (reportedly having been repaired with parts from 008).  I understand the IWSR have been promised 007 and the LTTG have been promised a “working” unit - so presumably that would be 006.

[Mike Storey]

On 14/12/2020 at 20:21, lmsforever said:

Dont think the average passenger is going to notice the livery to much ,as long as its on time ,comfortable ,and does not fail.Sadly the livery is not impotant commuters to busy looking at thier phones ,on a journey this year a young lady had two phones on the go plus earphones !

 

Not sure how true that is. For example, why did Island Line spend so much time and expense on the various liveries it has had, over the past decade or two - particularly the dinosaur livery?

 

The "average passenger" is but a luxury for the Island Line - it is a very small number right now and they need to attract a whole new generation. The TT, reliability and journey time are big factors, no mistake, but making the trains attractive, in giving them a personality, is another. This is not your average commuter line, and it will rely on some serious marketing to get those numbers back.

[Reorte]

On 17/12/2020 at 21:03, Gwiwer said:

Correct.  007 failed early today and buses have been arranged for the immediate future.  How long they last may depend upon what 007 needs fixed and whether it can be readily done.  

 

Well never say never again, it may live to die another day. And it's a quantum of solace that there's a replacement coming.

 

Sorry, I know that's too easy but I couldn't resist

[mdvle]

While I admire the dedication of the staff involved in attempting to keep something working to allow for a train service, the ultimate point is to offer a reliable service to the customers/passengers using it to get around.  Given that, and given the trains despite the efforts are no longer reliable, it really would be better to call an end to service early and simply institute the bus service sooner.

 

Perhaps simply move to bus now, and expend the effort to have 1 final day of service in the future where a proper (albeit Covid restricted) send off can be done.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Reorte said:

 

Well never say never again, it may live to die another day. And it's a quantum of solace that there's a replacement coming.

 

Sorry, I know that's too easy but I couldn't resist

 

Is it time to live and let die?

[Zomboid]

There trains only live considerably more than twice, it seems.

[TravisM]

10 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Even if you got one for a quid, it would cost you a few thousand to get it back off the island. I'd think most will get cut up where they stand. Much cheaper to move in smaller bits.

 

John

It was written with tongue-in-cheek but with LTM with their 4 car “Art Deco” set, it would be nice if a set could be retained on the island in working order to be used occasionally on specials.  

[surfsup]

25 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

It was written with tongue-in-cheek but with LTM with their 4 car “Art Deco” set, it would be nice if a set could be retained on the island in working order to be used occasionally on specials.  

 

While it would be nice and perhaps a little Niche, For level boarding of the 484's, the proposals include providing a 375mm height increase at Esplanade, and 477mm at Pier Head stations. So you'd have quite the drop from the refurbished platforms into a 483. 

[009 micro modeller]

4 minutes ago, surfsup said:

So you'd have quite the drop from the refurbished platforms into a 483. 

 

A bit like the local line platforms at Harrow & Wealdstone? (Unless they’re not like that any more.)

[Gwiwer]

25 minutes ago, surfsup said:

 

While it would be nice and perhaps a little Niche, For level boarding of the 484's, the proposals include providing a 375mm height increase at Esplanade, and 477mm at Pier Head stations. So you'd have quite the drop from the refurbished platforms into a 483. 

While that is far from uncommon around London where “tube” and “surface” stocks share (or have in the past shared) platforms it does not please Network Rail nor, in London, does it assist with disability access compliance. 

West Kensington to Hounslow Central and to Uxbridge via Rayners Lane are the worst-affected stations since they are, or have been, served by both District and Piccadilly Line stocks.  Also Kensal Green to Harrow & Wealdstone which are served jointly by London Overground and Bakerloo Line trains. Some stations on the Central Line which were once served by the LNER have a decent step as do Jubilee Line platforms between West Hampstead and Wembley Park which are occasionally served by Metropolitan Line trains  

 

It is not possible to use a ramp to access tube trains (and that is before we consider that the 2 minutes it typically takes to lower, use and stow the ramp would severely disrupt a train service running at 90 - 180 second intervals) but it is possible - and is done frequently - to roll-on-roll-off at a level platform with minimal gap because only one stock type is in use. 

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Gwiwer said:

While that is far from uncommon around London where “tube” and “surface” stocks share (or have in the past shared) platforms it does not please Network Rail nor, in London, does it assist with disability access compliance. 

 

No. Also I have a feeling that a compromise height is usually used (so there is a smaller step up to surface stock and a smaller step down to tube trains, rather than level one way and a huge step the other) so the difference isn’t as horrendous as it will be on the IoW post-refurbishment. But for occasional railtour use rather than a regular service it might be more acceptable.

 

 Isn’t there somewhere on the Tyne and Wear Metro shared section with a similar situation, where the problem is solved using a long platform, with Metro trains stopping at one end and National Rail at the other? This seems a better solution but obviously relies on there being room for a platform twice as long as that needed otherwise.

 

Another option might be some adaptation of these, although they’re more usually seen on rural railways with non-standardised platform heights: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrington_Hump

[Chris116]

If the problem is only about being able to run tours of the old trains then I think there is a simple solution for the Isle of Wight. At Ryde St Johns there are three platforms of which only two are used in passenger service so the third platform could be left at the height for the old stock and tours could start and end at that platform.

[rodent279]

9 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

No. Also I have a feeling that a compromise height is usually used (so there is a smaller step up to surface stock and a smaller step down to tube trains, rather than level one way and a huge step the other) so the difference isn’t as horrendous as it will be on the IoW post-refurbishment. But for occasional railtour use rather than a regular service it might be more acceptable.

 

 Isn’t there somewhere on the Tyne and Wear Metro shared section with a similar situation, where the problem is solved using a long platform, with Metro trains stopping at one end and National Rail at the other? This seems a better solution but obviously relies on there being room for a platform twice as long as that needed otherwise.

 

Another option might be some adaptation of these, although they’re more usually seen on rural railways with non-standardised platform heights: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrington_Hump

Another thing to bear in mind is that London commuters are well trained and used to step up/step down occasionally at some platforms, Island Line passengers and tourists may not be so adaptable. 

[rodent279]

12 hours ago, Zomboid said:

There trains only live considerably more than twice, it seems.

They're have obviously had the Living Daylights battered out of them!

[Zomboid]

9 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Isn’t there somewhere on the Tyne and Wear Metro shared section with a similar situation, where the problem is solved using a long platform, with Metro trains stopping at one end and National Rail at the other? This seems a better solution but obviously relies on there being room for a platform twice as long as that needed otherwise

Don't know about the metro (would make sense at Sunderland station though, I don't think many other stations share platforms) but the Sheffield tram in Rotherham does that.

[Zomboid]

9 hours ago, Chris116 said:

If the problem is only about being able to run tours of the old trains then I think there is a simple solution for the Isle of Wight. At Ryde St Johns there are three platforms of which only two are used in passenger service so the third platform could be left at the height for the old stock and tours could start and end at that platform.

I really can't see the market for Heritage tube train tours on the Isle of Wight. But if there were one, a stop at Smallbrook Junction would be essential.

 

The track at St Johns does not allow trains to arrive in the platform siding, so it would be a change to the track and signalling to enable it. In which case it would probably be better to reactivate the down line on the pier and use that presently OOU platform.

[Mark Saunders]

I don’t believe there is any difference in platform height for Metro trains just the floor height and platform are the same! There was no work done at many stations when converted for Metro use!

[caradoc]

12 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Isn’t there somewhere on the Tyne and Wear Metro shared section with a similar situation, where the problem is solved using a long platform, with Metro trains stopping at one end and National Rail at the other? This seems a better solution but obviously relies on there being room for a platform twice as long as that needed otherwise.

 

 

Sunderland is indeed arranged like that. However, when I was there in February, having alighted from the Metro, I walked the length of the platform to the area designated, signed, and populated by waiting passengers, for the Northern service back to Newcastle, only for the train to stop at the other end of the platform causing a mass stampede !

 

[009 micro modeller]

4 hours ago, Mark Saunders said:

I don’t believe there is any difference in platform height for Metro trains just the floor height and platform are the same! There was no work done at many stations when converted for Metro use!

 

Is there any particular reason why Sunderland is arranged like that then?

[Mark Saunders]

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Is there any particular reason why Sunderland is arranged like that then?

Not heard an explanation that makes any sense but LNER & Grand Central need the full length!

[Zomboid]

I'd have thought that passengers for the metro having a different waiting place to passengers for the northern services would help spread out people on the platform.