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IoW light rail conversion proposed


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6 hours ago, stewartingram said:

When used on the Met with the 4TC, SS was at one end and a loco at the other for the return journey. And often there would be an extra loco at one end, or both, so the 4TC was in reality just loco-hauled stock, not used in 'push' mode.

 

In that case, was there a reason why LU chose to purchase a 4TC, rather than more conventional hauled stock?

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Remember these have a new traction package with AC motors, and these tend to struggle with the 3rd rail I think it's safe to say?

 

Getting them to behave has often required extensive testing at Old Dalby, Wildenrath, Bournemouth etc but Vivarail ran out of time on the island and some limited running on Bombardier's short test track never seemed sufficient.

 

 

Edited by Christopher125
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20 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

 

Yes, they could. But I suspect this is as much to do with trying not to get sued (or a big compensation claim - good luck with that), and trying to keep their reputation intact for other sales. 

 

Call me stupid, but I prefer to think that he is a decent bloke running a decent company with a highly innovative product that has a few issues that need sorting out.

 

Personally I would dearly love to see  such an approach or attitude from absolutely anyone involved in setting up the circumstance that gave us the horror of Grenfell Tower, or the utterly disgusting and wrong headed Post Office "Horizon" prosecutions. I have no doubt whatever that we will see no such thing, no matter how many enquiries are set up.

 

So, to return to Vivarail, I think the current developments on the island are brilliant, especially after all the daft suggestions and doom laden hand wringing we saw at the beginning of this thread.

 

Thank you to all the contributors who have provided such fascinating pictures and insights into what is going on.

 

Simon

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On 20/04/2021 at 23:53, Christopher125 said:

All the new signals at Brading are now up, though only one has route indicators curiously.


51119523711_9b056692c2_z.jpg

Brading by Chris, on Flickr

 

I would still like to know why that signal has two sets of Lunar Lights?  To me it seems contrary to standard signalling practice for two routes; i.e. main aspect for the principal route, main aspect and lunar lights for the diverging route.  Perhaps things have moved on since my day

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1 hour ago, Railpassion said:

Yes, if both routes are equal speed at divergence two feathers are preferred in the new standards. There's another example on the East Grinstead extension at the Bluebell. 

 

Thanks for that, it's amazing how quickly things move on.  However, I have to say it seems like an unecessary complication and a complete waste of a set of lunar lights to me.

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On 30/04/2021 at 10:23, Not Jeremy said:

 

Call me stupid, but I prefer to think that he is a decent bloke running a decent company with a highly innovative product that has a few issues that need sorting out.

 

Personally I would dearly love to see  such an approach or attitude from absolutely anyone involved in setting up the circumstance that gave us the horror of Grenfell Tower, or the utterly disgusting and wrong headed Post Office "Horizon" prosecutions. I have no doubt whatever that we will see no such thing, no matter how many enquiries are set up.

 

So, to return to Vivarail, I think the current developments on the island are brilliant, especially after all the daft suggestions and doom laden hand wringing we saw at the beginning of this thread.

 

Thank you to all the contributors who have provided such fascinating pictures and insights into what is going on.

 

Simon

 

Adrian Shooter is a very fine chap indeed (I worked for him for a year or two) and what he has been trying to do (since 2015 or earlier) is develop a niche business, that is true. But he also has a very stern Venture Capitalist Shareholder (RDC) who are not renown for patience, especially if they are likely to get hit with compensation claims or whatever. That was my point. But if you prefer we all sit back, happy-clappy style and just observe and be grateful, rather than comment, then that must be your point.

 

But what is also strange about Adrian's admission, is this: https://onthewight.com/already-delayed-island-line-re-opening-looking-unlikely-to-hit-promised-mid-may-date-says-expert/?fbclid=IwAR0NMDTvhlnNghltjwKx-SSeuG42JmFU283VUs2PGoHGC5xwdPZgqz8iGwk

 

In brief, the allegation (by Phil Marsh, not exactly unversed in this subject) is that the SWR infrastructure works had little possibility of being completely finished and commissioned by mid-May anyway. If that is true, why has Adrian fallen on his sword, and why have SWR let him?

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27 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

In brief, the allegation (by Phil Marsh, not exactly unversed in this subject) is that the SWR infrastructure works had little possibility of being completely finished and commissioned by mid-May anyway. If that is true, why has Adrian fallen on his sword, and why have SWR let him?

 

If the infrastructure work isn't finished it won't be far off and much - though certainly not all! - is Covid related. Vivarails delay will be many, many months and Adrian has admitted can't be blamed much on the pandemic.

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17 hours ago, Christopher125 said:

 

If the infrastructure work isn't finished it won't be far off and much - though certainly not all! - is Covid related. Vivarails delay will be many, many months and Adrian has admitted can't be blamed much on the pandemic.

 

I am not sure we will see how far delayed the infrastructure works are, especially as there is little possibility of train running for some time, so nothing to compare it against. There are reports of a problem with two bridges, not height-wise, but width-wise. Not sure how true that is, but at least two people have reported it on another site. I agree Vivarail's delay may prove longer, but I am still not clear why SWR have let them take all the blame.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

 

I am not sure we will see how far delayed the infrastructure works are, especially as there is little possibility of train running for some time, so nothing to compare it against. There are reports of a problem with two bridges, not height-wise, but width-wise. Not sure how true that is, but at least two people have reported it on another site. I agree Vivarail's delay may prove longer, but I am still not clear why SWR have let them take all the blame.

 

Hard to say what the situation is regards signalling and any remaining gauging issues, but this aerial footage does suggest the stations should be ready - the island at Brading was, and presumably still is, going to take a little longer to commission. 

 

 

 

Edited by Christopher125
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Thanks for sight of this. It gives a good impression of where matters lie, and that is very definitely not for a mid-May completion. The (re-)construction of the platform sidewall and placement of copers is the major and most critical piece of work (once drainage, utilities and groundworks are sorted) due to gauging and slope. (I know - I project managed dozens and dozens of similar works, for NR, for the ODA and for the 2012 Olympics). Backfill is then pretty straightforward, if corresponding access to egress and rooms in buildings is compliant. 

 

But, by now, if mid-May was the target date, all these sites would now be in "snagging", not still finishing off, and, as you say, Brading is some way off even that. The site compounds would be in process of removal and heavy plant would have been removed. I also note that some trunking (at Brading I think) is still in polypropylene routing. Unless standards have changed beyond all recognition, this is not right. There is also the issue of a huge difference in height between some platforms and the corresponding station facilities - St Johns is one of these, but I gather there are one or two others?

 

Thus, given all this, plus the potential bridge gauging issues, I could not even begin to see commissioning until mid-June at the earliest, even with work-arounds. Perhaps even later. I understand that one of the software problems with the 484's is gapping. But I am none the wiser as to why NR have stopped permission for testing on the mainland - that implies a wrong side failure mode, but there appears to be no report of that. So, I still don't understand why Vivarail are taking the entire hit, PR-wise anyway.

 

In case others feel I am being hopelessly pessimistic, my main concern is the preservation of the business case. If this all goes a bit (or a lot) wrong, it suggests to HMG/DfT that even a relatively "simple" conversion rail scheme is doomed to failure. That might not bode well for future projects, especially on the IOW. (One antidote to that can be found on the Trans Pennine Upgrade thread, where a scheme originally budgetted (apparently) at £300m, is being let to contract at £17m.....)

 

 

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Posted (edited)

This presentation by OSL to the 'Railway Civil Engineers Association' doesn't give any hint of further delay so I guess time will tell.

 

Interestingly a connection to the Steam Railway for engineering access, planned but ultimately not installed, could yet be resurrected... (50:33)

 

Edited by Christopher125
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Being as Vivarail only sell to other rail companies could it be possible that they are taking the blame publicly in exchange for not being punished financially for a delay that would have happened anyway?  Both sides are running late but SWR/DfT have to sell tickets when this is all over.

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If I may comment as an IoW resident, I have recently heard from an SWR employee that 484 001 kept tripping out the traction supply, which is a tad unfortunate.

 

On the point of the Brading "feathers", I am informed that the existing platform road is designed to be bi-directional. Whether both platforms will have this feature remains to be seen.

 

Mike Storey's point about costs and overruns is a good one. An experienced and well-respected former manager in the bus industry has already offered the opinion that Southern Vectis could have done an awful lot more for public transport on the island with £26m or thereabouts. Personally, I am happy that the railway is being retained with the current investment. It has suffered too many years of attrition and neglect, yet still has a lot to offer.

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On 29/04/2021 at 00:10, PhilJ W said:

Yes.

Sarah Siddons is NOT capable of working push-pull with the 4TC. It is not fitted with multi[le unit control equipment. 

 

Maybe the reason a 4TC was chosen for LT use is mainly because it is air-braked.

 

whether Sarah Siddons would fit the island line through Ryde tunnels is a moot point. The shape of it is well within the loading gauge of the D/Vivarail stock and is a lot shorter.

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2 hours ago, Trevellan said:

 

On the point of the Brading "feathers", I am informed that the existing platform road is designed to be bi-directional. Whether both platforms will have this feature remains to be seen.

 

It will just be platform 1 that will be bi-di. That is why there are feathers entering from the north end, but not the south.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Trevellan said:

Mike Storey's point about costs and overruns is a good one. An experienced and well-respected former manager in the bus industry has already offered the opinion that Southern Vectis could have done an awful lot more for public transport on the island with £26m or thereabouts.

 

Which I expect Southern Vectis would have done little - because the £26m is essentially a one time capital expenditure and not an ongoing operational subsidy.

 

If there was profitable demand for all that other stuff Southern Vectis could have done, they would be doing it anyway...

Edited by mdvle
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8 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

Which I expect Southern Vectis would have done little - because the £26m is essentially a one time capital expenditure and not an ongoing operational subsidy.

 

If there was profitable demand for all that other stuff Southern Vectis could have done, they would be doing it anyway...

 

Sorry, I should have made my point more clearly. It was suggested that the railway be converted to a busway, which I would not want to see.

 

I'm not sure what's meant by "all that other stuff", but despite significant criticism of Southern Vectis (mostly by non-users) the IoW enjoys service levels which compare favourably to some London suburbs.

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On 07/05/2021 at 09:26, Trevellan said:

 

Sorry, I should have made my point more clearly. It was suggested that the railway be converted to a busway, which I would not want to see.

 

I'm not sure what's meant by "all that other stuff", but despite significant criticism of Southern Vectis (mostly by non-users) the IoW enjoys service levels which compare favourably to some London suburbs.

 

Given the virtual monopoly it has, I am not entirely surprised, also given the enormous high age profile of the average IOW  resident.

 

But, even with that,  I am surprised to see a comparison with London suburbs. Please describe where Southern Vectis has supplied a 15 min or even 20 min interval service? I am struggling to find more than an hourly service on most routes, with a half hourly service on two of the most intensive, but with a 45/55 min journey between Shanklin and Ryde bus station (as opposed to a projected 20 min journey time by rail)?

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Posted (edited)

I don't know about the Eastern side of the island, but I remember the buses between Newport, Yarmouth and Freshwater being surprisingly frequent the last time I was over there. There wasn't a pandemic on then, though.

 

Edit the #9 between Newport and Ryde runs every 10 minutes during the day.

Edited by Zomboid
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14 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

Please describe where Southern Vectis has supplied a 15 min or even 20 min interval service? I am struggling to find more than an hourly service on most routes, with a half hourly service on two of the most intensive, but with a 45/55 min journey between Shanklin and Ryde bus station (as opposed to a projected 20 min journey time by rail)?

 

The two primary routes which parallel former rail alignments (route 1; Newport-Cowes and route 9; Newport-Ryde operate every 10 minutes during the day, reducing to every 15 minutes during the evening.  Ryde-Shanklin is every 15 minutes during the daytime, reducing to half-hourly in the evening.

 

To be honest, I'm a little puzzled by the tone of the query. I freely admit to a professional link with Southern Vectis, but I would equally fight tooth and nail for the railway because I believe in both choice and resilience in public transport. I still find it heartbreaking that the 1966 closures occurred and the effect it has had. However, the fact remains that the railway has been losing money consistently and this has to be addressed. I sincerely hope the current upgrades will help in this regard.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Trevellan said:

 

The two primary routes which parallel former rail alignments (route 1; Newport-Cowes and route 9; Newport-Ryde operate every 10 minutes during the day, reducing to every 15 minutes during the evening.  Ryde-Shanklin is every 15 minutes during the daytime, reducing to half-hourly in the evening.

 

To be honest, I'm a little puzzled by the tone of the query. I freely admit to a professional link with Southern Vectis, but I would equally fight tooth and nail for the railway because I believe in both choice and resilience in public transport. I still find it heartbreaking that the 1966 closures occurred and the effect it has had. However, the fact remains that the railway has been losing money consistently and this has to be addressed. I sincerely hope the current upgrades will help in this regard.

 

 

 

Thanks for clarifying that and I am not trying to be aggressive, and accept everything you say - I am just interested as to how Southern Vectis can compete on the East side of the Island. I remember only too well the very lengthy bus journeys to Ventnor in the 1960's/70's/80's, from Ryde and Brading. Which table shows the 15 min interval service Ryde - Shanklin (purely out of interest, as I cannot find it!).

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30 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

Which table shows the 15 min interval service Ryde - Shanklin (purely out of interest, as I cannot find it!).

It is a combination of routes 2 and 3

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