Stewarts & Lloyds wagons 1923-1945

[Alex TM]

Hi everyone,

 

I thought that I would post tis question here, rather than in the prototype questions section, since it is focussed around one particular industry, location, and producer.

 

Question:

What I am hoping to find out is what types and liveries of wagons were used by Stewarts & Lloyds during the period from 1923 until 1947.  Particularly, I am interested in the stock used in and around the Corby area.  I have information on LMS coal, coke, and iron ore wagons but not on S&Ls own ones.

 

Background:

From 2008-2011 I lived and worked in Corby; during that time I discovered that a vast amount had been recorded in both written and photographic form about the works, its quarries, and railways.  Despite searching then, and more recently, all the rolling stock information that I could find related to the period subsequent to 1948.  As my modelling interests have moved back to the grouping area, and I am thinking about building something with an East MIdlands feel to it, this has renewed my interest in these particular rail workings.

 

So far all I have been able to find are photos of Bachmann or Dapol 8-planks!

 

Many thanks in advance for any help.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[RANGERS]

The S&L wagons were greyish green, the same as the Bachmann model of the seven plank. Bear in mind the timescales though, the Corby plant wasn't acquired by them until the 1930s, 1932 I think it was. Prior to then, the works were owned by Lloyds Ironstone (samuel Lloyd), who had no previous connection with S&L. At that stage the works consisted of blast furnaces on the same site as the ones S&L later built and several small quarries close to the works.

 

S&L developed the works over the subsequent years, the new furnaces and tube plant were built between 1933 and 1937

[Alex TM]

Hi Rangers,

 

Thanks for that information. I hadn't realised that S&L hadn't come into being until quite as late as that, possibly because most of the folk I knew from the works had been there only in BSC days or later.

 

Glad to read that the Bachmann wagon is the right colour though, interestingly, the Modelmasters transfers (P 063) state that the wagon should be a red oxide (white shaded black lettering on an RCH 7-plank with side door only).  Any thoughts?

 

Thanks again.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[RANGERS]

Not sure about the red oxide scheme but it may have been correct at some stage, S&L were around as a business before they bought the Corby site from Lloyds so I guess they would have had wagons serving their works in the West Midlands and Lanarkshire. One of Bill Hudson's books has a photo of a seven plank which although it's black and white, suggests the greenish grey to be right, that had the Corby & Weldon return address on.

 

The steel tippler wagons Bachmann model are definitely correct, they were in the same scheme in S&L days and BSC days, I can remember them in the 1970s. These wagons were non-common user and were used exclusively to ship coking coal from the Notts/ Derbys/ S.Yorks pits to Corby. I can't say if the wooden wagons were common user or not, or for that matter how long they lasted, the steel ones were new from 1940.

[grandadbob]

I don't know if this is an accurate livery or any help at all but here's a photo of an old Trix wagon. It's a very dark green - almost black.

 

Edited March 7, 2016 by grandadbob

[46444]

The other RTR wagon with an S&L livery is from Mainline:

 

http://www.ehattons.com/84666/Mainline_37439_LN_20T_Steel_Mineral_Wagon_Stewarts_Lloyds_Pre_owned_Like_new/StockDetail.aspx

 

Not sure if its accurate or not?

 

Interesting project by the sounds of things Alex.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[Alex TM]

Hi again folks,

 

Rangers - thanks for the additional information.

 

Grandabob - thanks for the pic.  I see that, now sleepy Weldon, is still named on the return address of the wagon.  It is quite a bit darker than the Bachmann ones.

 

Mark - thanks for the link.  I think the wagon type is of the right era, but still drawing a blank on prototype pics.

 

As for the Bachmann wagons, I have three:  the lettering varies slightly, and all have different running numbers.

 

 

Again, thanks for the help.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

 

 

[Mark Saunders]

In 1937 20 ton all steel Iron Ore Tipplers began to appear with further orders during the war, builders were Metropolitan Cammell. See Turton vol vii, however these are mistaken as hoppers and some survived till the works closed in 1982.

 

In 1939 Charles Roberts started to supply their 14 ton (uprated to 16 tons) all steel slope sided mineral wagons but as tipplers rather than with end and side doors! The prototype had side doors only but these were soon removed as Tipplers were exempt from wartime pooling of wagons! Again most of these survived till the works closed! These are confused with iron ore tipplers but are really coal wagons!

 

A rtr model of these is available from Bachmann but not in S&L livery!

 

S&L Bilston had a fleet of rch 20t minerals but without end door and coke raves. A rtr 20 ton mineral of the rch all steel type was produced by Airfix and Mainline but lacked the Coke Rails and used the body with the end door!

 

As I am using windows 10 I cant provide any links!

 

Mark Saunders

[Mark Saunders]

This is the 20 ton Iron Ore Tippler, there was also a 30 ton version for internal use!

 

Mark Saunders

 

[Alex TM]

Hi everyone,

 

Mark, thanks for the additional information and the pic of the 20t tippler.  Is the tippler in a photographic grey (wondered since the legend seem to be black rather than white)?

 

Does anyone know what the livery would be on the Bachmann type slope sided tippler?

 

Many thanks for all the great help.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[Mark Saunders]

Alex

 

Turton vol vii has some of the HMRS Chas Roberts officials of them in it or these can be ordered from the HMRS! Hudson vol iii has a photograph of the original 14t (later uprated to 16t) tippler when delivered with side doors!

 

There appears to be a choice of Red Oxide or Grey which probably depends on date delivered!

 

I think the lettering would have been changed on wartime deliveries to the small lettering at the lefthand end!

 

Mark Saunders

[Mark Saunders]

An official of a Bilston Coke

 

 

An undated one as a BR P series

 

 

A cropped shot I was sent years ago of the coal tippler in S&L livery

 

 

Mark Saunders

 

 

Edited March 16, 2016 by Mark Saunders

[Fat Controller]

Those steel-bodied coke wagons look as though they could be hacked out of two Dapol 21t bodies, possibly using brass strip for the coke raves to give the required thin-ness and strength. Being a cheapskate, I cut the ends off  very carefully, and made a double end-door wagon with the spare end-doors when making an LMS Loco Coal by these means.

[Mark Saunders]

Those steel-bodied coke wagons look as though they could be hacked out of two Dapol 21t bodies, possibly using brass strip for the coke raves to give the required thin-ness and strength. Being a cheapskate, I cut the ends off  very carefully, and made a double end-door wagon with the spare end-doors when making an LMS Loco Coal by these means.

The alternative route is to use a Parkside end from their riveted 21 ton mineral!

 

Mark Saunders

[RANGERS]

An official of a Bilston Coke

 

BSC S&L.jpg

 

An undated one as a BR P series

 

scan0009.jpg

 

A cropped shot I was sent years ago of the coal tippler in S&L livery

 

scan0002.jpg

 

Mark Saunders

Was there any date to the tippler picture?

 

The later S&L livery for these was the same as the later BSC ones Bachmann have modelled but with S&L owner names and numbers.

 

There was also a batch of 27t ore tipplers the same as the BR versions but in the S&L livery, Hornby do the BSC version of these.

[Mark Saunders]

Was there any date to the tippler picture?  ​​The picture would be date​d at build/delivery!

 

The later S&L livery for these was the same as the later BSC ones Bachmann have modelled but with S&L owner names and numbers. The Corby ones had the same numbers from delivery till 1973 when they were renumbered for TOPS, the BSCO was only ever a TOPS prefix and would not have appeared on the wagons pre 1973!

 

There was also a batch of 27t ore tipplers the same as the BR versions but in the S&L livery, Hornby do the BSC version of these.  ​Met Camm built 35 of these in 1962 so were outside the scope of the question and is why I ignored them! See Paul Bartlett's site for pictures of them at BSC Lackenby in internal use!

 

Mark Saunders

[RANGERS]

Mark Saunders

Sorry the tippler date I was talking about was for the pic of the coal tipplers.

 

Having looked at the pic a bit closer, the line of wagons in the middle look like the 27t ore tipplers and it looks like they're loaded with limestone but this looks to be too light in colour to be local stone which is a honey colour, this looks more like the Derbyshire grey/ white stone. Most of Corby's limestone came from Wirksworth in HTO/ HTV hoppers but there were periods when the limestone overburden was shipped in from the local quarries where it was present, Wakerley and Shotley pits mostly.

 

The pic looks like it was taken at Wood Sidings (officially known as Pen Green Sidings), the main reception sidings for all incoming raw materials, traffic for here arrived at Lloyds Sidings and was tripped up the bank to the exchange sidings. The train engines tripped their own trains in steam days but after diesels took over, Lloyds had a resident 08. Ore trains were handled by BSC 14s.

[Mark Saunders]

Sorry the tippler date I was talking about was for the pic of the coal tipplers.

 

Having looked at the pic a bit closer, the line of wagons in the middle look like the 27t ore tipplers and it looks like they're loaded with limestone but this looks to be too light in colour to be local stone which is a honey colour, this looks more like the Derbyshire grey/ white stone. Most of Corby's limestone came from Wirksworth in HTO/ HTV hoppers but there were periods when the limestone overburden was shipped in from the local quarries where it was present, Wakerley and Shotley pits mostly.

 

The pic looks like it was taken at Wood Sidings (officially known as Pen Green Sidings), the main reception sidings for all incoming raw materials, traffic for here arrived at Lloyds Sidings and was tripped up the bank to the exchange sidings. The train engines tripped their own trains in steam days but after diesels took over, Lloyds had a resident 08. Ore trains were handled by BSC 14s.

 

Alas I have no date for it!

 

Mark

Edited March 17, 2016 by Mark Saunders

[Down_Under]

Stumbled across these images the other day of some wooden Stewart & Lloyd ore wagons - no doubt carrying iron ore given the lumpyness and the fact the wagons are only 3 planks high.

 

 

Image courtesy of the BGS - Taken by J Rhodes in 1933

 

Thought I would add it to this thread I found while googling more about the wooden PO wagons.

 

Looks like wooden U-frames, up-rated buffers, and fixed ends. Bit of a optical illusion of the S&L had me thinking that they had been repainted, but as pointed out, they have not been.

 

Are there any drawings of these in one of the many PO wagon books?

 

James

 

 

Edited January 19, 2020 by Down_Under
Correcting information

[RANGERS]

Very interesting pics, not ones I’d seen before.

 

The location could be Corby, the communication address looks newly painted and is Corby, and the redevelopment of the former Lloyd’s site would have been just about to get underway after S&L acquired it in 1932.

 

These would presumably been in their twilight years and replaced with the steel bodied 20 tonners at the start of the war.

[cctransuk]

19 hours ago, Down_Under said:

 I like the repainting of "S&L" over "Stewart & Lloyd

 

Sorry, I don't follow - it always was STEWARTS & LLOYDS; never "Stewart & Lloyd".

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[RANGERS]

11 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Sorry, I don't follow - it always was STEWARTS & LLOYDS; never "Stewart & Lloyd".

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

It was locally, it was a rarity for the company to be referred to by its correct title, it was always Stewart & Lloyd. To Corby kids in the 70s, the annual gala was referred to as Stewart & Lloyd’s fair until it moved from the company ‘Rec’ in 1986. 

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, RANGERS said:

It was locally, it was a rarity for the company to be referred to by its correct title, it was always Stewart & Lloyd. To Corby kids in the 70s, the annual gala was referred to as Stewart & Lloyd’s fair until it moved from the company ‘Rec’ in 1986. 

 

That may well be so - but the wagons in the posted photo had certainly not been overpainted from "Stewart & Lloyd" to "S&L".

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[RANGERS]

45 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

That may well be so - but the wagons in the posted photo had certainly not been overpainted from "Stewart & Lloyd" to "S&L".

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

No, but it was a very clever way to highlight both the full and abbreviated titles.
 

Interestingly, there were numerous references to the company by the incorrect version when the heritage display at East Carlton Park first opened in the early 80’s.
 

Only when the inconsistencies were pointed out were the extent of the mistakes apparent. There followed an effort to correct them but some may have remained.

 

The collection and displays are now much reduced in size and sadly are in need of some serious TLC, they have clearly seen better days.

[Compound2632]

It's purely serendipity that the final S of Stewarts, the ampersand, and the initial L of Lloyds happen to fit between the door hinges. Note how the initial S of Stewarts and L of Lloyds are taller than the rest of the lettering, so that the S on the door is shorter than the L. No evidence of repainting of this lettering, so far as I can see. It's curious that the part of "Stewar" on the top plank seems to be less grubby than the rest of the lettering.