Exhibition insurance values

[TEAMYAKIMA]

A friend who is a fantastic modeller, but exhibition newbie, has asked me for a view on what value he should put on his layout when going to a show......

 

Just the cost of materials?  Or should modelling time be factored in?

 

I said that rolling stock (inc locos) was relatively easy as there is a market value for a Roco class 50 or a Hornby Class 50 or a Tony Wright built kit loco or whatever it might be, but what of a layout? It is a unique creation, how is that valued?

 

I said that if layout building time is factored in (at even £7.20 per hour) the value would be so great that no exhibition could afford to have your layout

 

Am I right? What do most people do?

[peter220950]

Of course it's up to the individual, but the aim of insurance is to put you back into the position you were in before the loss. It therefore follows that it should represent the cost of having the layout and stock replaced without having to spend years re-creating it.

 

Many choose to just value the replacement materials as they are happy to work for nothing, and would take the opportunity of a total loss to start a new layout. - If I had spent hours of toil on a layout, and taken the trouble to Exhibit it, I think I might feel a bit short changed if I was only given the material cost after damage that was not my fault.

 

It's likely that the other Exhibitors are going to follow a route of 'sensible' costing, so I would be inclined to follow their lead, cost all the stock at replacement cost, baseboards as professionally available ready to use, cost all materials used, and put something in for the labour that feels appropriate to the event. You're never going to get the full 'cost' of having it replaced, but a reasonable figure will at least see some recompense.

 

I seem to recall discussions regarding a layout that had been smoke damaged, and If I remember correctly the insurers were very sympathetic about the restoration costs, but they will only pay out up to it's valuation, if that's low then it's hardly their fault, they will just call it a write off and pay out valuation..

 

I wouldn't value all the hours put in at £15 an hour for a small Charitable event, but I would be more inclined to represent a reasonable costing for a larger exhibition, it's not likely to have much effect on the overall total insurance bill, but could significantly effect the individual concerned if he loses a layout.

 

Also consider how much difference the size of your valuation will make to the overall claim for the rest of the layouts and for a new venue!

 

As a final thought, I've just spent the best part of a year on and off, re-fitting my kitchen. Should the insurers just pay me for the cabinets if there's a fire? - Why should your model railway be any different. - If you don't want labour costs re-imbursed then you can always donate the money to a worthy cause if there's a claim, but I would always put a reasonably costing in as a starting point.

 

Peter

 

Edit - Regarding not being able to afford 'your layout' I just stumbled across a Hiscox one off event insurance that includes £2m Public Liablility and £10k of material loss, amongst a lot of otther stuf like cancellation costs, it was £70.-  A 'large' valuation to you is likely to be a drop in the ocean for the event.

 

If it's any guidance I think our 40' x 16' O gauge layout and stock was somewhere north of £100k, check with yout fellow Club members what values thay are putting on Club Layouts?
 

[gordon s]

Maybe some more ideas/views here....

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/5753-insurance-value-of-exhibition-layouts/

[MarkSG]

As a rule of thumb, the value of a thing for insurance purposes is what it would cost to replace it if you had to pay someone else to do it. But it's hard to get to that simply by totting up your own time, because you've almost certainly spent a lot of that time "tinkering" rather than purposefully working towards a goal. It may have taken you several years to get an exhibition-standard layout ready, but a professional working to a well-specified brief could do it very much quicker. Probably the best guide is to look at layouts which are for sale - they crop up every now and then at exhibitions, or you can look on eBay and the like - and see what they go for.

 

As has already been said, don't be afraid to put a high value on the layout for insurance purposes. Insurance of this type is related far more to risk than the putative cost of the item. In reality, the entire loss of a layout at a show is very, very rare (so rare, in fact, that I'd be surprised if anyone here has heard of it happening), and hence the insurance costs take that into account. Far more common is loss of individual items, such as someone dropping a loco, or damage to part of a layout. But these costs are themselves low enough for the insurance costs to be reasonable, too. And you're not a hundred times more likely to suffer damage to a loco if you have a hundred locos than you are if you only have one, because risk isn't related directly to quantity either. All of which means that, overall, the individual values of each layout in the show won't have a huge effect on the show's insurance costs.

[johnb]

Always a difficult one. Having been an exhibition manager I am only too well aware of how tight finances can be, for any size of show.

It would be surprising for some to learn just how small a surplus even some of the bigger shows actually make.

However I keep to a standard value wherever I am taking it. I value the stock at current replacement value, not forgeting spare stock. Then the basic costs of baseboard materials, track, scenery, controls and so on, plus the value of the tools that I am taking along, decent tools aren't cheap!

In short the current replacement costs of everything that I take to a show plus a contribition for construction time, the latter usually some 10% or so of the replacement costs.

 

It's my choice to do that, other will probably differ. If by some mischance I did suffer a total loss, I would say "Oh Buffer!!!" or something that meant the same thing, get the insurance money and start again on something different. It's my hobby and I like building layouts!

 

John

[BigMal]

To quote from my club's magazine, part of an article I wrote a couple of year's ago;

 

An insurance value for your layout is not always easy to estimate. Any rolling stock (i.e. off the shelf locomotives, coaches, etc.) or individually bought in scenic items which are currently available are easy to price. Older items may have an increasing or decreasing value – time to consult the Antiques (Rail)Road Show!

 

The layout itself is much more difficult to value. At one extreme is the simple cost of the materials which have gone into it’s construction, timber, track, wire and switches, scenic materials, etc. At the other extreme would be the complete cost of reconstruction of the layout employing a professional model maker. Choosing the latter would undoubtedly wipe out about 95% of the shows in the country which would be unable to afford the excessive insurance premiums for such highly valued exhibits. So a compromise of “material cost +” must be considered. It’s the size of the “+” which is the problem!

 

Mal

[bécasse]

Firstly I would say always think of a total loss situation, the venue might burn down overnight. Having said that, you also need to consider the possibility of the loss of something crucial to the continued operation of the layout (or your future modelling), theft of or serious damage to an item of rolling stock, a section of scenery, a control panel or a box of tools. Normally, such individual valuations will be adequately covered by the overall valuation, but the situation does have to be thought through.

 

Valuing the layout itself is a bit like valuing a car, layouts depreciate in value. At the very least, the valuation of a new layout will be the cost of materials to build a new replacement (not necessarily the same) layout, it might well be appropriate to add something to enable at least some replacement work to be done professionally - building a replacement baseboard, for example, or some of the track or scenic work. As the layout starts to get a bit long in the tooth on the exhibition circuit, its secondhand or break-up value starts to be more important, and that probably won't be all that high.

 

Portable items, locos and rolling stock, control panels and tools are a bit different, especially where items aren't proprietary. If these are lost or damaged but the layout isn't, their replacement is more important so it is that replacement cost that creates the valuation. Since replacement will probably be less important if the layout is a total loss, I usually that the total loss valuation that will at least cover the individual (professional) replacement cost of, say, a couple of the most valuable items. This does rather go against the usual insurance principle of insuring everything at full value, or face having any claims scaled down, but on the other hand insurance companies will rarely be in a position to establish individual valuations anyway and they do seem to meet the odd claim that arises provided that it falls within the total amount covered.

[Dungrange]

... So a compromise of “material cost +” must be considered. It’s the size of the “+” which is the problem!

 

I'd be tempted to include time for all the elements that you don't enjoy building.  For example, if you don't like building baseboards, cost these such that they can be built for you.  For the parts of the construction that you enjoy, say track building, just make these the material cost.

 

That would therefore ensure that you don't have to toil away on the elements of the hobby that you find less interesting.

[Geoff Endacott]

Trainwest this year has a total insurance value of £200,000. The 25 layouts range from £300 to £30,000.

 

Geoff Endacott

[298]

 

As a final thought, I've just spent the best part of a year on and off, re-fitting my kitchen. Should the insurers just pay me for the cabinets if there's a fire? - Why should your model railway be any different. - If you don't want labour costs re-imbursed then you can always donate the money to a worthy cause if there's a claim, but I would always put a reasonably costing in as a starting point.

 

Peter

 

Edit - Regarding not being able to afford 'your layout' I just stumbled across a Hiscox one off event insurance that includes £2m Public Liablility and £10k of material loss, amongst a lot of otther stuf like cancellation costs, it was £70.-  A 'large' valuation to you is likely to be a drop in the ocean for the event.

 

If it's any guidance I think our 40' x 16' O gauge layout and stock was somewhere north of £100k, check with yout fellow Club members what values thay are putting on Club Layouts?

 

Stock should be fairly easy to value, but from what I've seen discussed in the past it's layouts that are trickier- complete loss through theft or accidental damage (not during transport) would still be extremely rare, but the thought of the cost of a repair potentially being limitless (many times the market value) doesn't work as if it was a car the insurers would just write it off and certainly couldn't return the condition of the item to how it was before the claim.

 

If we were all paranoid about the threat of a layout or its components being damaged or stolen at a show then we'd see two things- an exhibition nearly full of stuff made with what is readily available from box shifters or second-hand tat tables, and layouts with an element of craftsmanship staying firmly at home- and I for one wouldn't like to see either happening.

[Gwiwer]

Rolling stock, one might think, would be the easy part to value.  So it is if all you run is out of the box.  You can consider the actual amount you paid for the stuff (which might or might not include a reasonable allowance for both inflation and depreciation) or the cost to replace it new-for-old where possible.  

 

Then we have to factor in the potential cash value of kit and scratch built items for which no amount of money can replace your time spent building the thing.  Even weathering takes time and affects the value of stock; it might be considered worth more (and if you buy factory-weathered stock it certainly costs more) or it may be less because it's no longer in original condition.

 

How many of us keep records of everything we spend on building the layout from scratch?  Every bit of wood, every pack of nails, screws and fixings, every drill bit we break and replace, every bit of wire and every tool, blade or bottle of glue?  Wha of the rolls of wire we might have in stock or have to buy specially but only use some of?  And how to value all the scenic material which for larger layouts can possibly be more valuable than the rolling stock itself?

 

The area is a minefield and there is no single right nor wrong answer in my opinion.  Those who seek answers may quite reasonably ask for advice but may have to make their own decisions on the extent and value of cover.

 

Most - probably all - public events should have their own insurance covering some risks but do check what those are.  Are you covered from the entire transport process to and from home / clubroom, are you covered during loading and unloading at the venue or only while the layout is erected inside?  Are you covered for theft as well as accidental damage?  Public liability is also a consideration as your layout has the potential to do harm to someone should they trip, fall or poke fingers at it even though all reasonable steps might be taken to prevent such happenings.  Again the organiser should be able to confirm the cover they hold.

 

If you do require additional cover for what ever reason it's worth looking into specialist policies and niche insurers who are willing to write you a policy having some understanding of the relatively low level of risk.  I've heard horror stories of premiums and excesses which approach the actual sum insured but I have also heard of a few very good deals.  Ask around.  I am legally bound by reason of my previous employment within the insurance industry to state than I must not offer specific advice.

 

My portable N-gauge layout "Boghouses" flew from Australia to the UK and back for exhibition and was covered to my satisfaction by the event insurance whilst there.  I arranged an additional clause on my travel insurance to the effect that it would be specifically covered for theft or loss (they wouldn't cover damage in transit due to the high risk in flight) from leaving home until returning and when not covered by the event policy.  The stock was almost all bough new and was valued at the amount paid; one pre-owned unit was also valued at the price paid as it was in near-new condition.  I then factored in a notional amount in respect of materials used in construction but nothing for my time.  A phone call to the insurer was all it took to add the required cover for a very small additional premium as I had the travel insurance anyway.

[Mike Bellamy]

. . . complete loss through theft or accidental damage (not during transport) would still be extremely rare,

. . . a layout or its components being damaged or stolen at a show

 

The majority of exhibitions use the 'Magnet' scheme which covers the layout 'in transit' (other vans are available) and so the layout and stock would be covered from leaving home (or clubrooms) until their safe return.. In using this policy for over 30 years, I can only recall one claim for stolen stock off a layout and none for layout damage.

 

To see the type of things covered and to get a quote have a look here

http://www.modelrailwayinsurance.co.uk/

 

 

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