woodenhead Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Looking again I agree it isn't Colwich, missing buildings as well as a canal and too close unless the camera in use had an amazing telephoto. Sorry guys Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomag Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 From photos Winwick was clear of wires in 1970 Electrification started from Weaver Junction in 1970 heading North with completion in 1974. Given the photo is either spring 71 or autumn 71 it is likley that wires would have got to Winwick/South Lancs by then, even if they were not energised. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted March 22, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 22, 2016 Electrification started from Weaver Junction in 1970 heading North with completion in 1974. Given the photo is either spring 71 or autumn 71 it is likley that wires would have got to Winwick/South Lancs by then, even if they were not energised. Don't take it personally but that's an opinion and I've seen many such opinions become "facts" - some form of evidence is needed for me. http://www.hwells.co.uk/page10.html - March 1971 and no wires at Warrington. I've seen - many years ago - a wiring train at Winwick Junction box (typically I can't find it anywhere now) which, if dated, would confirm the date the wires went up in the area. In either case I'm reasonably confident I've shown it's not Winwick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 30851 Posted March 22, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 22, 2016 Don't take it personally but that's an opinion and I've seen many such opinions become "facts" - some form of evidence is needed for me. http://www.hwells.co.uk/page10.html - March 1971 and no wires at Warrington. I've seen - many years ago - a wiring train at Winwick Junction box (typically I can't find it anywhere now) which, if dated, would confirm the date the wires went up in the area. In either case I'm reasonably confident I've shown it's not Winwick. Well I can possibly help in where you saw those pictures of the wiring train at Winwick - 'Electric Euston to Glasgow' by O S Nock has two pictures taken there of the wiring trains. The bad news is that they are not dated! Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomag Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 Don't take it personally but that's an opinion and I've seen many such opinions become "facts" - some form of evidence is needed for me. http://www.hwells.co.uk/page10.html - March 1971 and no wires at Warrington. I've seen - many years ago - a wiring train at Winwick Junction box (typically I can't find it anywhere now) which, if dated, would confirm the date the wires went up in the area. In either case I'm reasonably confident I've shown it's not Winwick. I am not saying it is north of Winwick juntion, just that your arguments are opinion also. The topgraphy fits, the powerlines fits, the motive power fits; other things are not consistent such as the tree and the length of the railings but these are much more likely to change over 35 years. In terms of the overheads they are fairly new Mk3s with a stayed post indicating an end of a section of wire to the left. However, there is no sign of the tensioning equipment (or for that matter any overhead wires but that could be due to the resolution). Until there is any evidence as to the timetable for electricfation work for this section of WCML there isn nothing to say that this could not be a phote from the WCML in late 71 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted March 22, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 22, 2016 I am not saying it is north of Winwick juntion, just that your arguments are opinion also. The topgraphy fits, the powerlines fits, the motive power fits; other things are not consistent such as the tree and the length of the railings but these are much more likely to change over 35 years. In terms of the overheads they are fairly new Mk3s with a stayed post indicating an end of a section of wire to the left. However, there is no sign of the tensioning equipment (or for that matter any overhead wires but that could be due to the resolution). Until there is any evidence as to the timetable for electricfation work for this section of WCML there isn nothing to say that this could not be a phote from the WCML in late 71 My arguments are not opinions - they are formed from the **evidence** I presented, whether you agree with that or not is a potentially different matter, but they are not opinions - if they were I would state as much, I don't do random guesses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted March 22, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 22, 2016 Can I try to resurrect Colwich? Not really my area, but I have been under those bridges a time or two, both by bus and car. I believe the pic was taken from a train on the Up Stoke line. The canal is not absent, indeed, above the edge of the bridge we can see some folk who are either gongoozling on the towpath or atop a narrowboat. There really aren't too many locations like this, I feel. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted March 22, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 22, 2016 Can I try to resurrect Colwich? Not really my area, but I have been under those bridges a time or two, both by bus and car. I believe the pic was taken from a train on the Up Stoke line. The canal is not absent, indeed, above the edge of the bridge we can see some folk who are either gongoozling on the towpath or atop a narrowboat. There really aren't too many locations like this, I feel. Assuming the road in picture would be Meadow lane if it was Colwick, then I think the bridge is too short and in Google street view the metal railing only have 4 posts in the ground https://www.google.pt/maps/@52.7897151,-1.9948464,3a,75y,208.8h,92.5t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siYY9qgWjNI9hQJl7lhn4Qw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1 and the bridge doesn't look like it's been rebuilt. In the photo in question, the green ground looks slightly parched and the trees autumnal, so my guess would be late in the year rather than spring. Since beast66606's evidence confirms no wires at Winwick in March 71, could they not have appeared by late autumn? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted March 22, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 22, 2016 Assuming the road in picture would be Meadow lane if it was Colwick, then I think the bridge is too short and in Google street view the metal railing only have 4 posts in the ground https://www.google.pt/maps/@52.7897151,-1.9948464,3a,75y,208.8h,92.5t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siYY9qgWjNI9hQJl7lhn4Qw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1 and the bridge doesn't look like it's been rebuilt. In the photo in question, the green ground looks slightly parched and the trees autumnal, so my guess would be late in the year rather than spring. Since beast66606's evidence confirms no wires at Winwick in March 71, could they not have appeared by late autumn? See my reply here which clarifies my case for it not being Winwick Edit. Although I've been convinced it probably is ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clydebridge Posted March 22, 2016 Author Share Posted March 22, 2016 I do like a healthy debate and all the suggestions have been most welcome. That photo has become a bit of a dichotomy, however I'm confident we'll pinpoint the location sooner rather than later. In the meantime lets take a look at these. Now where are we...? Hymek on on mixed freight from rear cab of DMU CL0005 Carriage Sidings with a distinctive clock tower on amenity building CL0006 A busy coastal station arrival hauled by a Western? CL0007 Passing a type 4 / class 47 passenger service viewed from the cab of DMU CL0008 As always, any input is more than welcome as to the locations it's much appreciated. But most importantly just enjoy the images as much as I've had posting them. Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian Smeeton Posted March 22, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 22, 2016 No 3 is Penzance, I think. I'm not chancing my arm on the others though, Regards Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted March 23, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 23, 2016 3 is most definitely Penzance. The others elude me for the moment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Is the one with the clock tower Swindon? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberdeenBill Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 The signal box in the Hymek picture looks like ex-LSWR(??), maybe somewhere on the 'withered arm'? Carriage sidings = Old Oak Common(?) with a late surviving semaphore signal? Even I got that the coastal station is Penzance Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 I think CL0005 is Frome North Signal Box, looking towards Westbury. The Hymek looks to have a train of ballast hoppers possibly to or from Whatley Quarry cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Having just come in via Winwick southbound and immediately retuned north on the WCML I too believe that Peak to be on the line to Earlestown. The only thing missing is the line of trees, I've snapped a couple of photos but I don't know how good they are yet Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Here is a Winwick image taken today from approximately the same position. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Would appear I am in Australia! Anyway to flip an image, it is the right way round when expanded and in my gallery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Can I try to resurrect Colwich? Not really my area, but I have been under those bridges a time or two, both by bus and car. I believe the pic was taken from a train on the Up Stoke line. The canal is not absent, indeed, above the edge of the bridge we can see some folk who are either gongoozling on the towpath or atop a narrowboat. There really aren't too many locations like this, I feel. I have blown the photo up somewhat and have to conclude that the gongoozling folk are actually the heads of cattle in that field between the two lines. They look like Herefords with white faces and pale brown colours elsewhere. The power lines may be the key, but I don't have the 1970s OS maps (8th series?) to look at. The Nat Lib Of Scotland side by side maps are only the 7th series and are not modern enough to show all the extra grid structures built during the 1960s. There might be power lines at Colwich, from Rugeley power station, but the road looks wrong somehow. It is annoying that the tree obscures the view on the right, but the road would have to pass under the line that the Peak is on, and to me it just doesn't look as if it does that. The set of grid power lines nearest to the camera are not associated with the pylon nearest the camera (extreme left). That suggests three separate sets of power lines which appear to be converging not too far away from the location. However, without a 1970s map of power station locations it is difficult to trace where the electricity lines might originate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Having just come in via Winwick southbound and immediately retuned north on the WCML I too believe that Peak to be on the line to Earlestown. The only thing missing is the line of trees, I've snapped a couple of photos but I don't know how good they are yet Looking at the trees and hedgerows, I believe that Jan/Feb is the most likely time for the Peak photo. There are no traces of leaves on the branches or on the ground which ought to rule out autumn. Although the shadows are not very helpful, it does look as if the sun is about top right, i.e. the train is heading almost directly towards it. This would tend to rule out any north facing junction. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted March 23, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 23, 2016 Try www.old-maps.co.uk for larger scale maps. The area round Winwick shows two power lines running E-W in the area of the junction, and some later ones show a third one south of Burtonwood closer to the M6. I don't recall any power lines around Colwich. BTW, when it come to sensitive areas the Russian military maps on that site sometimes show more detail than to OS ones (but I still haven't found the Strategic reserve marked). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Maltazer Posted March 23, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 23, 2016 Try www.old-maps.co.uk for larger scale maps. The area round Winwick shows two power lines running E-W in the area of the junction, and some later ones show a third one south of Burtonwood closer to the M6. I don't recall any power lines around Colwich. BTW, when it come to sensitive areas the Russian military maps on that site sometimes show more detail than to OS ones (but I still haven't found the Strategic reserve marked). The power lines are clearly marked on here http://streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=360431&y=392304&z=120&sv=winwick&st=3&tl=Map+of+Winwick,+Warrington+[Town]&searchp=ids.srf&mapp=map.srf Mal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted March 23, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 23, 2016 Try www.old-maps.co.uk for larger scale maps. The area round Winwick shows two power lines running E-W in the area of the junction, and some later ones show a third one south of Burtonwood closer to the M6. I don't recall any power lines around Colwich. BTW, when it come to sensitive areas the Russian military maps on that site sometimes show more detail than to OS ones (but I still haven't found the Strategic reserve marked). I'm happy to be convinced it's Winwick - the pylons did have me convinced at first but the bridge and the apparent - but maybe it isn't ? - under bridge on what would be the Earlestown line doesn't fit and the date also doesn't appear to fit in with the photo of Warrington in March 1971 which has no sign of any wires. I know the wires were up by 09/1972 as there are photos of semaphores sticking out of the knitting and they all went in Sept 1972. Another question- were Peaks used on services through Warrington in 1971 ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 23, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 23, 2016 That's a nice easy lot The top one, with the Hymek, is Frome North, the next one down is Old Oak Common passenger yard with the 1930s amenity block on the left, the one below that is Penzance (the only place where I haven't worked in this group of four pics), the bottom one looks to be between Clink Road Jcn and Fairwood Jcn (between Frome and Westbury) and was taken before the previously posted one of the approach to Fairwood Jcn Which suggests there is a whole sequence covering Frome (or further west?) to Westbury. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomag Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 I'm happy to be convinced it's Winwick - the pylons did have me convinced at first but the bridge and the apparent - but maybe it isn't ? - under bridge on what would be the Earlestown line doesn't fit and the date also doesn't appear to fit in with the photo of Warrington in March 1971 which has no sign of any wires. I know the wires were up by 09/1972 as there are photos of semaphores sticking out of the knitting and they all went in Sept 1972. Another question- were Peaks used on services through Warrington in 1971 ? Peaks were used on North Wales to Manchester services, they were more common when there were through services using TP North stock. Anything south of Crewe I would have to leave to others to say if they were common. In respect of my previous post (no pun) the posts for the electric overheads are there but there is no evidence of wires (and specifically tensioning weights). Therefore the lack of wires at Warrigton in 1971 would not necesarily mean that posts would have not been installered eatlier. From experience in the late 80's/early 90's doing track surveys for the MEE they did the plain line post sections long before they round to anything requireing headspans. So the case for Winwick is:- Topograph and Lanscape in the background Power Lines Seperation between lines. Rail over road bridge with a 90' right turn before the second line Road construction standard. Peak Uncertainties Bridge fence Changes in vegitation. Illumination Progress of electrification Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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