Signaller69 Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 I am looking for images/plan of the ex LNER long wheelbase Permanent Way brake van, and any info on their use, withdrawal dates pertaining to their use in Scotland particularly. I have a single good photo in David Larkin's "BR Departmental Rolling Stock - a Pictorial Survey", and a Google survey came up with a single image of a preserved one (luckily the opposite side to the other photo). Info I have gives a build date of 1948, 15' w/b, 27' over headstocks, height 11'7", number series DE3015XX. I am aiming to do a budget 4mm scratch build project on a 15' chassis I have spare. Feel free to PM me if you can help. Many thanks, Martyn. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevex59 Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 As a wagon spotter over many years i never spotted one of these vans in Scotland. There were a few in the Newcastle area that probably went slightly north but most of them seemed to operate from London on the Eastern upto Newcastle. The places i spotted them were, Hitchin, Cambridge, Norwich, Peterborough, Lincoln, Doncaster, Beighton, Tinsley, Toton, Healy Mills, Crofton, York, Tees Yard, Tyne Yard and Low Fell. Another hobby I have is to collect wagon builder plates, I have 470820, 634354 and 634355 which was the last built in 1948. Sorry I cant help with a plan though. All the best in building a very interesting wagon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signaller69 Posted March 22, 2016 Author Share Posted March 22, 2016 As a wagon spotter over many years i never spotted one of these vans in Scotland. There were a few in the Newcastle area that probably went slightly north but most of them seemed to operate from London on the Eastern upto Newcastle. The places i spotted them were, Hitchin, Cambridge, Norwich, Peterborough, Lincoln, Doncaster, Beighton, Tinsley, Toton, Healy Mills, Crofton, York, Tees Yard, Tyne Yard and Low Fell. Another hobby I have is to collect wagon builder plates, I have 470820, 634354 and 634355 which was the last built in 1948. Sorry I cant help with a plan though. All the best in building a very interesting wagon. Very many thanks Steve, I mentioned Scotland as that is where my layout is based (Crinan, a fictitious branch off the West Highland c.1970), the old book source I mentioned indicates a possible use on ScR lines, and notes that as well as the common metal look-out duckets "the wooden Scottish area type was used, probably for 2 vans only". The pic shows DE301555 at Darlington in 1969. As you suggest it would make an interesting model, particularly in the blue livery of the time! Cheers, Martyn. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 Very many thanks Steve, I mentioned Scotland as that is where my layout is based (Crinan, a fictitious branch off the West Highland c.1970), the old book source I mentioned indicates a possible use on ScR lines, and notes that as well as the common metal look-out duckets "the wooden Scottish area type was used, probably for 2 vans only". The pic shows DE301555 at Darlington in 1969. As you suggest it would make an interesting model, particularly in the blue livery of the time! Cheers, Martyn. Photos of these BR wagons at http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lnerballastbrake None in Scotland Beautiful, accurate drawing in Tatlow, Peter (2015) LNER Wagons, Volume 4B, LNER Standard & other Designs. Wild Swan, 182 pages . ISBN 978 0 953877 11 9.. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevex59 Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 I have checked a few photos I have of these vans and, I will try and scan them...hopefully it will turn out ok. I will try 1 first Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevex59 Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 Great stuff, for some reason it has added them end on.....these are the saturn rocket type. Anyway maybe you can save them and rotate them. Should be in this order. photo 1 is 544440 at Beighton on 9/9/90 ZTO photo 2 is 544440 at Doncaster on 1/1/90 ZTO photo 3 is 544440 at Beighton on 9/9/90 ZTO photo 4 is 470820 at Doncaster on 10/6/90 photo 5 is 470819 at Tinsley on 20/5/90 ZPO photo 6 is 634355 at Tinsley on 20/5/90 ZPO photo 7 is 301559 at Thornaby photo 8 is 301557 at Tinsley on 20/5/90 ZTO photo 9 is 470818 at Toton on 14/5/89 ZXO seems like its the dreaded windows 10 that has turned the photos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dava Posted March 22, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 22, 2016 Presumably this is the preserved one at Bo'Ness - since restored http://www.srpsmuseum.org.uk/90015.htm Dava Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signaller69 Posted March 23, 2016 Author Share Posted March 23, 2016 Photos of these BR wagons at http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lnerballastbrake None in Scotland Beautiful, accurate drawing in Tatlow, Peter (2015) LNER Wagons, Volume 4B, LNER Standard & other Designs. Wild Swan, 182 pages . ISBN 978 0 953877 11 9.. Paul Great info there Paul, many thanks for your reply! Martyn. Great stuff, for some reason it has added them end on.....these are the saturn rocket type. Anyway maybe you can save them and rotate them. Should be in this order. photo 1 is 544440 at Beighton on 9/9/90 ZTO photo 2 is 544440 at Doncaster on 1/1/90 ZTO photo 3 is 544440 at Beighton on 9/9/90 ZTO photo 4 is 470820 at Doncaster on 10/6/90 photo 5 is 470819 at Tinsley on 20/5/90 ZPO photo 6 is 634355 at Tinsley on 20/5/90 ZPO photo 7 is 301559 at Thornaby photo 8 is 301557 at Tinsley on 20/5/90 ZTO photo 9 is 470818 at Toton on 14/5/89 ZXO seems like its the dreaded windows 10 that has turned the photos. Great photos Steve, very many thanks for taking the time to upload them! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signaller69 Posted March 23, 2016 Author Share Posted March 23, 2016 Presumably this is the preserved one at Bo'Ness - since restored http://www.srpsmuseum.org.uk/90015.htm Dava Many thanks Dava, more evidence of Scottish use then! Martyn. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevex59 Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 The SRPS van 634355 has NE lettering , however it was not built till 1948 so was always BR. Interestingly this vehicle ended up as an internal user as 041400 at Norwich along with 634354 then numbered 041401 which was allocated to ipswich. 041400 was then taken back in to stock around 1989 and renumbered back to 634355, a rare escape for an internal user. As these 2 were built at Pickerings at Wishaw, then they must have at least spent a little time on the Scottish when new prior to delivery, so at least that's one excuse to have them on a Scottish based layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signaller69 Posted March 24, 2016 Author Share Posted March 24, 2016 As these 2 were built at Pickerings at Wishaw, then they must have at least spent a little time on the Scottish when new prior to delivery, so at least that's one excuse to have them on a Scottish based layout. Thats good enough for me ha ha! Any idea if any were vacuum braked or through piped? Cheers again! Martyn. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 For ones with wooden duckets there are two at Tanfield but with added windows and seats! Mark Saunders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signaller69 Posted March 25, 2016 Author Share Posted March 25, 2016 For ones with wooden duckets there are two at Tanfield but with added windows and seats! Mark Saunders Cheers for that, will try to look them up! Martyn Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevex59 Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Regarding the 2 mentioned at the Tanfield Railway. If i remember correctly they were ex SR Utility Vans with added seats...but dont shoot me down if i remember wrongly. As for preserved examples i can only find, 301559 at the North Yorkshire moors and it was usualy near grosmont loco shed if you walk round the back and under restoration. 470818 at the NRM at Shildon...one of the best ex service preserved examples. 470819 at Mangapps Farm...although it is said to be a "Shark" which it is not. 634355 at Boness as mentioned. As for the Vacuum or through piped, I am not that sure, however on my photographs I place the tops code ZPO..ZTO.etc...well the last O usually means with out any automatic brake but having a handbrake, usually a wheel in this case. If it was Piped...then the last letter would be a "P" ie ZPP...ZTP The one that is unusual in my photos is the ZXO which was at that time in a "tunnel train". I cant remember any being Vacuum braked or piped as usually they worked with "Grampus" and other vehicles themselves which were also un-braked. The majority of these departmental trains were among the last of loose coupled trains and as such were limited to low speeds...I think 35mph. If any loose coupled wagons were moved as part of a train then they would be marshalled at the rear, this generally happened when moving items from yard to yard or yard to works. Hope this helps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signaller69 Posted March 25, 2016 Author Share Posted March 25, 2016 Hi Steve, yes very useful thanks. I had a quick look at the Tanfield website which usefully has a list of their coaches; whatever the "conversions" were modified from none now bear a likeness in that the bodywork is altered to such a degree. TR no.s 1 & 2 appear to be Ex GWR, Fruit D possibly judging by the chassis, built Swindon 1911 & 1956. TR no's 3 & 4 don't have photos but are designated "brakes" with build dates given as 1945, Pickering, not sure how that correlates with records? Unfortunately no other information is provided on any of the former guises. My van will be used at one end of a ballast train (all vac fitted) hence asking about braking. Unless evidence of some being vac braked or piped comes to light, being a terminus it will need to be shunted to the rear on arrival, not a problem though as I enjoy shunting! Cheers, Martyn. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevex59 Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 I just searched a few flickr pages for Tanfield and found a picture of one of those wagons/ coaches. It did have a Pickering builders plate on it, but I don't know why they would destroy 2 ex Ballast Brake Vans which are fairly rare, unless they got 2 burnt out ones from a scrap yard. I have just searched through some more info and although not complete says , 301555 was a ZPO built at Pickering 1948 disposed of at Booths 301556 was a ZTO built at Pickering 1948 301557 was a ZTO built at Pickering 1948 301558 was a ZPP built at Pickering 1948 301559 was a ZPO built at Pickering 1948 306305 was a ZTO built at Pickering 1949 306307 was a ZPO built at Pickering 1949 470818 was a ZPO built 1948 470819 was a ZPO built 1948 470820 was a ZPO built 1948 544440 was a ZTO 634354 built 1948 634355 was a ZPO built 1948. all were LNE Dia 203. so it does seem 1...301558 was piped. I always had an interest in these vans...the first time I saw one was at Boston...on the way to Skegness...I would maybe be 8 or 9 at the time and was so impressed I took a photo, despite me only having a 12 exposure film.....I remember thinking it looked like an old Stockton to Darlington Coach Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signaller69 Posted April 1, 2016 Author Share Posted April 1, 2016 I just searched a few flickr pages for Tanfield and found a picture of one of those wagons/ coaches.It did have a Pickering builders plate on it, but I don't know why they would destroy 2 ex Ballast Brake Vans which are fairly rare, unless they got 2 burnt out ones from a scrap yard. I have just searched through some more info and although not complete says ,301555 was a ZPO built at Pickering 1948 disposed of at Booths301556 was a ZTO built at Pickering 1948301557 was a ZTO built at Pickering 1948301558 was a ZPP built at Pickering 1948301559 was a ZPO built at Pickering 1948306305 was a ZTO built at Pickering 1949306307 was a ZPO built at Pickering 1949470818 was a ZPO built 1948470819 was a ZPO built 1948470820 was a ZPO built 1948544440 was a ZTO634354 built 1948634355 was a ZPO built 1948. all were LNE Dia 203. so it does seem 1...301558 was piped. I always had an interest in these vans...the first time I saw one was at Boston...on the way to Skegness...I would maybe be 8 or 9 at the time and was so impressed I took a photo, despite me only having a 12 exposure film.....I remember thinking it looked like an old Stockton to Darlington Coach Many thanks again for the info, so one seems to have been vac through piped at least, I wonder if that was a late conversion? Might just have to go with 301558 for my model, more on which in the next post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signaller69 Posted April 1, 2016 Author Share Posted April 1, 2016 A start has been made! I should say at this point the plan is to produce an acceptable (to me) model with a zero budget using items salvaged from my bits box so I ask that you forgive any slight inaccuracies! I have worked from the photos above and known dimensions where possible. Chassis is an old Airfix Type B tank as the wheelbase is correct, though each end was removed (as too short overall) and replaced with Evergreen channel. Buffers and brake shoes are cast ABS. Axleboxes have been modified from roller bearing to older oil type. Wheels are Bachmann 3 hole disc. Footboards are still to be added. Bodywork is a 3 ply plasticard affair, 1mm planking for the exterior, 20thou for windows layer and a thicker internal layer for strength. Door overlays have yet to be added along with handrails and the duckets from the old Airfix brakevan body in the photo. I have yet to dig out a suitable roof. I will update as work progresses. Edit - I should add this project started as "what can I do with this chassis?" and this looked an interesting one. The axleguards are wrong but I can live with that, by the time footboards and weathering are added hopefully it won't be too obvious. The 1mm planking was used as a timesaver; there are around 90 planks each side on the prototype and I didn't fancy scoring them uniformly by hand at 1.1mm intervals! Hence the model has slightly too many at 105ish but this is not overly noticable in 4mm scale. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 The two conversions at Tanfield are virtually intact externally as only side windows were added; see these pictures via the Vintage Carriage Trust! http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=14075 http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=14074 Mark Saunders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signaller69 Posted April 2, 2016 Author Share Posted April 2, 2016 The two conversions at Tanfield are virtually intact externally as only side windows were added; see these pictures via the Vintage Carriage Trust! http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=14075 http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=14074 Mark Saunders Ah that's excellent, many thanks Mark, these are the 2 without photo's on Tanfield's website I mentioned earlier, hadn't considered the Vintage Carriages website. Nice to see the bodywork hasn't been discarded, and has just had some new windows installed. The Guards lookout duckets are interesting, I wonder if they have been replaced by a more "antiquated" design or if these are the original wooden design as mentioned in the book I have? Also interesting is the info table which shows TR4 (DE301560) was a ZTO but TR3 (DE306308) was a ZTP (through vac piped). TR4 has been through piped at some point as it also has vacuum pipes (Tanfield conversion possibly?) Nice to see this pair still earning their keep! Edit: I suspect the duckets have been replaced as TR4 (DE301560) was presumably built straight after 301559 which is in one of Steve's photo's earlier in the thread, and has the "standard" style of metal duckets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signaller69 Posted April 4, 2016 Author Share Posted April 4, 2016 Latest progress: duckets, door overlays and footboards now fitted, along with a few other minor cosmetic bits. Next job are the chassis strengthening trusses, handrails and lamp irons. Been toying with the roof hence the ex Airfix kit ones in the foreground! A cut and extend of the ex Meat Van one looks most promising so far but we will see. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signaller69 Posted April 10, 2016 Author Share Posted April 10, 2016 Further progress, having had a coat of primer, have to say if you like adding lots of handrails this is the project for you! First attempt at the roof needs work yet hence not being pictured. Still, I'm pleased with progress thus far. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signaller69 Posted April 22, 2016 Author Share Posted April 22, 2016 Almost finished, bit more work to do on the roof plus some judicious weathering, and the fitting of Kadee couplings and vacuum through pipes. Lettering was produced on my computer, printed on white transfer film. Cheers, Martyn. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signaller69 Posted May 22, 2016 Author Share Posted May 22, 2016 Post weathering photo to round out the thread. Vacuum through pipes not yet fitted as I'm not sure if they would have been bufferbeam mounted or the tall variety? Also I wondered at what point the real van was fitted with them as I am modelling c.1970? So more research to be done! I am pleased with the outcome, its not perfect but then I'm running on 4' 1.5" gauge track. . . . Think if I was starting again I would use an Airfix/Dapol Standard BR Brake Van kit for the chassis (though this would still need extending), and also the look out duckets. But its been a fun and equally importantly to me, cheap, project. My thanks go the extremely helpful and knowledgable folk who contributed photos and links, cheers guys! Edit: Bodyside and end tail lamps will be added when painted. . . ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted May 22, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 22, 2016 I've only just found this thread, there was an NER one on the NYMR in the early 80s, was at Goathland behind the camping coaches. I wonder if this one has moved to another railway? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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