Knuckles Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) Hello all, I'm excited to see Shapeways have offered us a new material; High Definition Acrylate. So far it is 'Maker Material' only available to model owners. Apparently from what I gather based on their video and the photographs it is possibly smoother, crisper and stronger than FUD and also cheaper. This is sounding like very good news. They also.said as they get to know the material more they might change the printing tolerance guidelines or price so that is where I am apprehensive. If they keep the price where it is (or drop it) then happy days but if they raise it then to my mind it isn't much different than FUD. Once I've saved a bit I'm going to order a loco body in it and compare it to a FUD one I have. Like I say, as long as they don't raise the price I got high hopes. What is your collective knowledge and thoughts?? Edited March 31, 2016 by Knuckles 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGR Hooper! Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 I share the same thoughts as you. My very first 3D print will be in HDA... It's also going to be a very simple detailed loco body, chassis and bogie frames. After seeing the HO scale cars and N scale railbus I was very impressed by it. Looking forward to trying it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 An interesting development. Until physical items have been delivered though it remains an unknown really. I look forward to seeing how your test prints look. If the material offers a cheaper, but still good detail wise, option then other items might start to become viable to 3D print that they're not presently. We can but hope. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 It would be great if someone who gets a model made in it could comment on: Strength/robustness How well it takes paint How easy it is to glue How good the detail is Mow easy it is to wear/scratch (i.e. can it be used for rubbing surfaces like axles or crank pins, or do we need to glue in a metal part for this) Any other important points for a new material? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGR Hooper! Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 It would be great if someone who gets a model made in it could comment on: Strength/robustness How well it takes paint How easy it is to glue How good the detail is Mow easy it is to wear/scratch (i.e. can it be used for rubbing surfaces like axles or crank pins, or do we need to glue in a metal part for this) Any other important points for a new material? Most of those questions already answered in their first video where they showed painted samples, it is apparently more robust than FUD and the detail is just as good with smoother surfaces as a plus point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 People should read the small print before speculating on this stuff. The main points as far as I can see are 50 micron layers, as opposed to 27 with FUD or 17 with FXD DSP printing, so edges are not as sharp as FUD, but stepping tends to 'fill in' on curved surfaces Physical supports, this means that downward pointing faces will need sanding which will limit the detail those faces can carry Maker Material, which means that it can't be sold through shops until the experimental period is over. The two good point seem to be that it is black and that it is not as brittle as FUD. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Looks good, finish certainly looks better than FUD. Just a case of careful design to work around physical supports. I think for stuff in 4mm scale this could be ideal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian Morgan Posted March 31, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 31, 2016 According to the Material Guidelines, the minimum unsupported wall thickness is less than for FUD (0.5mm instead of 0.6mm), but supported wall thickness is also 0.5mm instead of 0.3mm. The maximum bounding box is much bigger than for FXD, making it more useful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knuckles Posted March 31, 2016 Author Share Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) I agree mostly with what you all said, although the micron layer isn't always the only deciding factor in determining quality, lower is better though no doubt. I have thought a few times in buying the Ultimaker 2 as the micron layer goes down to 20. However, MANY people are saying that the ABS and PLA prints are not as smooth as some resin prints with a micron layer of say 50, so the material choice makes a difference too. What Bill said about the curved surfaces being smoother with stepping less visible sounds great. I'm not an expert on all this though so reading all your thoughts helps. Will know when I get a print out anyway. Edited March 31, 2016 by Knuckles Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 I have ordered a test piece which has long straight smooth bits, very small fine details and lots of thin sections. It incorporates some parts I've previously had printed on a B9 Creator and that managed very well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knuckles Posted March 31, 2016 Author Share Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) I would very much like a B9 Creator. Apparently the quality is comparable to £80,000 machines....apparently.There is a guy here on RMweb somewhere that has show cased the results of his 2mm printed B9 Creator items using Spot HT resin and I'm rather amazed at it.Will be buying a loco body as a test for the HDA anyway. Will be interesting to see how they turn out. Also interested to see how all yours turn out too.Does anyone have knowledge on how to clean HDA before painting? For FUD I dump it in white spirit for about an hour, I know some don't like this method but so far it's been ok. EDIT: "Say hello to Black High Definition Acrylate, our newest material launching today! It’s a high detail material similar to Frosted Ultra Detail (FUD), but smoother and more durable." "...this new material is printed using Direct Light Projection (DLP) which provides excellent resolution and accuracy. It also provides a smoother finish which lends itself really well to painting. This material is more durable and flexible..." Apart from our collective cost and sprue worries it is so far sounding too good to be true. Read read read... http://www.shapeways.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=39421 Edited March 31, 2016 by Knuckles Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rue_d_etropal Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) Always good to see Shapeways introducing new materials. In the email, it actually mentions model trains, but I also noticed it said something abou it being UV setting. Now the effect of UV on certain plastics is known, and precautions can be taken, but it is something that might concern me. There are also things like type of glue to use and paints. When I started with 3D printing, one editor came up with the phase 'aid to scratch-building' , and for much of what I want 3d printing for, that is a pretty good definition. I still think some are trying to do too much detail, then grumble it is not quite good enough. I also think looking at other items that locos, and rolling stock, is more productive. My philosophy has been to develop models to suit the plastic rather than expecting plastic to suit my designs. Most people are just happy to have something rather than nothing. Edited March 31, 2016 by rue_d_etropal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knuckles Posted March 31, 2016 Author Share Posted March 31, 2016 Fair point. We all have different approaches. My philosophy is to add detail and if people don't like it or want to replace it then it is simply a case of cutting it off and sanding it smooth and adding alternatives. Lamp irons are a good example. I add them but they may be too thick for some people. No worry, cut em off and add etched ones! Better on than not as default IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpoorObjecten Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 The material is in fact smoother than FUD The only downside i see personally is the sprues which have to be cut away so parts of a model are bit rough cause of this. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rue_d_etropal Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 One reason for my approach was not being certain on some detail and then there also being some variation. In particular detail in loco cabs. For the buildings I am currently working on , I add most detail. Not that there is much extra I can add. WSF works fine for these. I am also a great advocate of using best suitable material for different items, and some detail is still better in thin wire. I have had no negative comments about lack of detail, in fact I think some like to be able to modify stuff, and if they have to remove detail, some feel they are paying twice. I am not keen on seeing identical models on different layouts as has happened over the years with various kits, and now with super detailed r2r. It is something friends tell me as well. Not stopping anyone, but if you want to show off what you make(either exhibitions , magazines or both) then a bit of individuality looks better. My reference to UV, is something someone else mentioned to me a few weeks ago. Given the way various plastics react to UV and chemicals, I would want to be absolutely certain a model was not going to turn to dust in a couple of years. Remember many specialist uses of some plastics might only be using then in strictly controlled environments. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knuckles Posted April 1, 2016 Author Share Posted April 1, 2016 I agree on models looking the same. Buildings are the worst, those Metcalfe and Super Quick card kits...ugh, shudders! Not that they can't make good models with some tweaking but yeah, same on so many layouts. Weather you have to add or remove stuff on a kit either way it is still extra work, can't please everyone when we all have different values and opinions. If UV cured means the models might not last a few years then no one will bother, how can we know for sure? I heard that PLA prints are a no go and that they biodegrade in 10 or so years. If that is true then they definetly a no go. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arun Sharma Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 Simon - I believe I spoke to you at a Southampton show a few weeks ago and mentioned the effect of UV on the higher resolution DLP prints. The simple way around that is to use them as masters for resin/WM/LW casting. It significantly reduces the cost per item as although there will be an additional mould charge, 1cc of resin is a tiny fraction of the price per cc of FUD et al. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 My reference to UV, is something someone else mentioned to me a few weeks ago. Given the way various plastics react to UV and chemicals, I would want to be absolutely certain a model was not going to turn to dust in a couple of years. Remember many specialist uses of some plastics might only be using then in strictly controlled environments. Oh good grief. People have been using light and UV cured resins for printing for 25 years, I really don't think that the industry would have grown to the size it is now if any model had turned to dust in a couple of years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knuckles Posted April 1, 2016 Author Share Posted April 1, 2016 (edited) What about PLA printouts? I don't mean for quality but life. I heard they will biodegrade in a decade or so. Edited April 1, 2016 by Knuckles Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knuckles Posted April 2, 2016 Author Share Posted April 2, 2016 I hope this is not true but it seems this HDA might be here to replace FUD and FXD. Bloody hope not. https://www.shapeways.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&goto=140674#msg_140674 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 I hope this is not true but it seems this HDA might be here to replace FUD and FXD. Bloody hope not. https://www.shapeways.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&goto=140674#msg_140674 Until people start getting HDA samples it is a moot point, if SW get enough negative feedback for it they'll not switch to it without further work on it. But they do seem to *hope* to replace it with something, whether that will be HDA remains to be seen from reading the forum post you linked to. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knuckles Posted April 2, 2016 Author Share Posted April 2, 2016 (edited) True, we will have to wait and see I guess. This may help too... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UDMQWzXB3nY Sounds and looks good but I am unsure how loco bodies will fair with support material removal. Edited April 2, 2016 by Knuckles Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 True, we will have to wait and see I guess. This may help too... Sounds and looks good but I am unsure how loco bodies will fair with support material removal. Thanks for that. It does look interesting. Certainly looks an improvement on much of what I've seen 3D printed previously. I've not seen FUD/FXD stuff up close though so can't compare it on my own viewing so to speak. However, the support material removal may be less of an issue if experimentation is done to get the support material reduced to the least needed amount. The method of printing they're using is one of better methods iirc compared to most other methods the other options use (is FUX/FXD filament or resin based like hda?) and is what is favoured by the high end 3D printers on th emarket iirc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 If I had the money I'd have already bought my own B9 creator. I had Alan Buttler make me some masters for casting on his, and the results are equal to the best shapeways can manage from FUD/FXD but without the problems and the many many poor prints to get one good one. My initial test was rejected due to it's thin walls, I had a feeling they would. So I've redesigned slightly, and also at the same time added some sprues to bring the cost down as I really need to see this in the flesh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arun Sharma Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 It isn't really a question of it turning to dust - more just becoming so brittle that you become wary of handling it. In a nutshell, the resin copy bounces on hitting the floor if/when you drop it and the Fullcure720/FUD etc doesn't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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