Mazak 'rot' ... arrghhh!

[locomad]

It would be interesting to see the attitude of the companies that made those products, then compare it with Hornby's. I suspect that most of them will just rely on the age of the product, and do nothing about it at all. Hornby rebuilt the locos until they ran out of chassis, then issued refunds. Finally, they drew a line in the sand. 

 

Can I suggest that, as seems to be the case with most recent class 31 discoveries, if you have bought engines and stored them away, that you check them periodically? I don't mean once a week or similar, but often enough that it doesn't take 14 years from release for the fault to be found. That way, you can shout at H, or B, or whoever, that much earlier, and hopefully avoid being left out.

Experience has shown they just wiggle out of it claiming it's your fault, take it to retailer, it's out of guarantee period ( 12 months) etc.

 

I've seen a broken lawn mower, carburettor failure looks like mazak rot less than 4 years old, yet my Qualcast cylinder 50 years old still going strong, btw B&Q just didn't want to know, local mower repair shop reckons cost more for parts than its worth.

 

My own experience of mazak rot model railway stuff is Lima, & modern Hornby, twisted chassis, expanded ballast weights and it happens very quickly, something 30 years old ok last year, within a year splits etc

[phil-b259]

Experience has shown they just wiggle out of it claiming it's your fault, take it to retailer, it's out of guarantee period ( 12 months) etc.

 

I've seen a broken lawn mower, carburettor failure looks like mazak rot less than 4 years old, yet my Qualcast cylinder 50 years old still going strong, btw B&Q just didn't want to know, local mower repair shop reckons cost more for parts than its worth.

 

 

Quite so

 

Rather than getting all hot under the collar about the situation its time people woke up the realities of consumer products these days. There is a reason that most consumer goods are (when adjusted for inflation) actually far cheaper to buy than their equivalents (which usually had less features by the way) back in the 1960s / 70s / 80s etc. That is they are not built to be repaired or treasured as manufacturers have twigged its a lot more profitable to sell you a brand new one every 4 years than offer a repairs service - particularly when far east production costs are as low as they are.

 

Of course if people stopped being like sheep and believing the adverts / showed some financial restraint, then retailers / manufacturers might be forced to think again - but until then they are only too happy to indulge our desire for the 'shiny, new and CHEEP' over longevity.

 

As such Hornby's previous response to the issues when they first emerged is actually went well beyond what shareholders, city investors and indeed the claims courts would regard as necessary for defects in what they still refer to as "Toy Trains" (however well detailed they may be).

Edited October 2, 2017 by phil-b259

[Forester]

It is up to people to complain, otherwise the problem will continue. It is perfectly easy to stop contamination happening. It only takes the sort of determination that comes from having large numbers of unhappy customers threatening to stop buying, to put an end to the problem..

 

With that in mind I'm disappointed the "Zinc Pest (Mazak Rot); Affected Models List" has been pinned as a downloadable file rather than a lengthy open and shaming list visible for all to see.

 

Don't accept Mazak Rot.

Send the item back, no matter how old it is.

[Stormbringer]

I had this problem with the front bogie on my Hornby rebuilt Merchant Navy 35025 Brocklebank Line. Hornby or Peters Spares didn't have any but I found 1 at Lendons of Cardiff ( the only one they had) at the vast sum of £2. That solved the problem. The old bogie just fell apart after I took it off.

 

Pete

[sandwich station]

I had this problem with the front bogie on my Hornby rebuilt Merchant Navy 35025 Brocklebank Line. Hornby or Peters Spares didn't have any but I found 1 at Lendons of Cardiff ( the only one they had) at the vast sum of £2. That solved the problem. The old bogie just fell apart after I took it off.

 

Pete

 

Brocklebank Line is mentioned early on in this thread I started almost 3 years ago. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/80898-southern-pacifics-mazak-problem/

[SDJR7F88]

Hi all. Just came across this topic along with others on Mazak Rot. 

I'm currently looking at a BR T9, sadly these seem to be polithic for having issues with the motor mount. I understand there is a brass replacement from Peter Spares, however I was wondering if the rot just effects this area on the models, isolated to that part or if left, could is spread to other parts? 

The motor mount looks an easy job, but don't want to purchase it find it has spread other components (if that's what the rot does that is). 

 

 

 

[ikcdab]

16 minutes ago, SDJR7F88 said:

Hi all. Just came across this topic along with others on Mazak Rot. 

I'm currently looking at a BR T9, sadly these seem to be polithic for having issues with the motor mount. I understand there is a brass replacement from Peter Spares, however I was wondering if the rot just effects this area on the models, isolated to that part or if left, could is spread to other parts? 

The motor mount looks an easy job, but don't want to purchase it find it has spread other components (if that's what the rot does that is). 

 

 

 

My friend had this with her T9. Without checking, there are two bits you need. The new motor mount and IIRC some kind of "hold it down" for the motor. Peters spares had the first, but not the second. However, it was very easy to make my own from a small piece of brass. I seem to remember it was just a small piece of sheet with a couple of holes drilled in it.

The job was fiddly but successful. The rest of the loco chassis looked pretty good, in her case it was just those two components that had failed.

There is a "Sam's trains" video showing the process.

[Fireline]

Contact Hornby, they have the two parts you need, and will send them to you FOC. It is usually only the motor saddle and the rear F bracket that are affected.

 

[Michael Hodgson]

Are these various replacements made of the same unsuitable material - and only going to suffer Mazak rot again?

[RedgateModels]

11 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Are these various replacements made of the same unsuitable material - and only going to suffer Mazak rot again?

Well that's the thing. It all depends on the batch. Anything cast from a contaminated melt will be affected. Spare parts tend to be made at a different time to production versions so should not be affected.

 

You just can't tell. 

 

I've just had to replace an X9741 motor mount on a Patriot. The spare I bought for it was bagged up as Royal Scot, so from a different time and probably different batch so should be okay ........

[Michael Hodgson]

This mazak rot is a peculiar phenomenon, I have known coarse scale O gauge wheels that have been in frequent use for decades just crumble into fragments, very much like that Merchant Navy bogie referred to above.  It seems to be a sort of metal fatigue.   I seem to have been lucky in that I don't recall any of my own stock suffering from this, but I don't think much of my stuff contains that type of alloy.   On the other hand, I have had some plastics warp and distort over time.

 

[sandwich station]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 but I don't think much of my stuff contains that type of alloy.   

 

If you have Triang, Hornby Dublo, Hornby, Bachmann or just about any other RTR manufactured stock, it contains Mazak.

[wainwright1]

11 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

This mazak rot is a peculiar phenomenon, I have known coarse scale O gauge wheels that have been in frequent use for decades just crumble into fragments, very much like that Merchant Navy bogie referred to above.  It seems to be a sort of metal fatigue.   I seem to have been lucky in that I don't recall any of my own stock suffering from this, but I don't think much of my stuff contains that type of alloy.   On the other hand, I have had some plastics warp and distort over time.

 

I believe that the Princess class loco pre WW2 which was the pinnacle of the Hornby 0 gauge range, suffered badly from this fatigue with a lot of the wheels disintegrating. Probably difficult to find a good one these days.

Ray

[phil-b259]

On 03/01/2021 at 08:57, SDJR7F88 said:

Hi all. Just came across this topic along with others on Mazak Rot. 

I'm currently looking at a BR T9, sadly these seem to be polithic for having issues with the motor mount. I understand there is a brass replacement from Peter Spares, however I was wondering if the rot just effects this area on the models, isolated to that part or if left, could is spread to other parts? 

The motor mount looks an easy job, but don't want to purchase it find it has spread other components (if that's what the rot does that is). 

 

 

 

 

It depends on the model, or more precisely what parts which make up the model were cast from a faulty batch of molten metal.

 

Mazak rot doesn't spread like an infection from 'bad' metal to 'good' metal

 

I had one (R2889) where the entire chassis was affected and broke apart while trying to fit the brass motor mount from Peters Spares. On other T9 models I have it was just the motor mount that was affected.

[leopardml2341]

21 minutes ago, wainwright1 said:

I believe that the Princess class loco pre WW2 which was the pinnacle of the Hornby 0 gauge range, suffered badly from this fatigue with a lot of the wheels disintegrating. Probably difficult to find a good one these days.

Ray

Just like the 'Ever-Ready' battery operated Underground Trainsets......

[simmo009]

Firstly, apologies for resurrecting an older thread.

 

I have R2248, which is on the list of possible affected models. Hitherto, it has run well 

but the other night, I took it to the club for a run and the main wheels would only turn about 3/4 of a revolution. The motor was impeccable. I stripped it down when I got home, and there was nothing obviously bent or misshapen. I then thought it may be gummed up, but it has been run in the last 12 - 18 months. When I went to lift the wheels, the bearings on the middle sets of wheels (yes all 3) were stuck in the chassis.

Does the indicate the onset of Mazak rot? Fyi the front lugs that locate the front of the bodyshell crumbled during removal.

Having identified the correct Hornby Service Sheet (254) I note that the chassis block is unnumbered. I presume this is not available as a spare part.

Am I correct in my assumption that this chassis block is the same as used on the models covered by Service Sheets 235 & 328?

If all of the above is correct, anybody got a healthy chassis block?

Would a 3D  print be a viable alternative? There is plenty of space in the bodyshell to add weight over the drivers, although admittedly the centre of gravity would be significantly higher. If this is possible, would anybody have a drawing?

Lots of questions here, so please be clear with your answers. I have never experienced mazak rot before, this thread so far has been most useful.

[Going Spare]

Your chassis block will be the same as loco's R2105 upwards on Service Sheet 235 but not the same as that on sheet 328 as that is for the loco-drive version.  There is a relevant thread "9F and a crumbling chassis" on the Hornby forum which suggests that, with a little work, a chassis block from earlier versions can be used.

[simmo009]

Yes, it looks like from R2105 (possibly R2057) the block gained a threaded hole and some adjacent bumps for the running gear retainer. There is an earlier version on Ebay without these bits, loathe to take a punt without getting all the info beforehand. 

[adb968008]

Do you have a picture ?

 

this maybe one for the mazak thread.

[david12345]

My R2421 class 31 developed a small crack in the front cab a year past in September. I emailed Hornby but they couldn't help so I left it on a shelf till today and had another look at it. It seems to be the small pads that hold the lighting contacts that seem to be disintegrating, I'm not sure the chassis block is affected. I wonder if those can be bought as spares ? Seems a waste of, at the time, £89. I bought it in 2007.

[roythebus1]

Yep, I had the same problem on mine. Bought about 2008, hardly ever used, got it out of the box and noticed the cab font cracked. The mazak had disintegrated over the intervening years. I ended up binning the model but grafted the bogies and motor onto a 2nd hand Lima loco. all I've got to do is make some new housings for the close-couple NEM boxes to go on to. I transferred the Hornby buffers to the Lima body.

 

I was intending to fit scale wheel onto the Lima bogies but there's so much slop in the Lima axles it was't possible.

[david12345]

Taken it apart now. Chassis does look okay, I'm wondering if something could be made with some thick plasticard as I've given one that's nearly intact to trace round. , maybe something to do over Christmas.

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, david12345 said:

Taken it apart now. Chassis does look okay, 

 

 

Hmm, are you sure.?

 

Something isn't right in the photo you posted earlier - it looks like there is a distinct droop to the front portion of the chassis.

 

 

[andyman7]

2 hours ago, david12345 said:

My R2421 class 31 developed a small crack in the front cab a year past in September. I emailed Hornby but they couldn't help so I left it on a shelf till today and had another look at it. It seems to be the small pads that hold the lighting contacts that seem to be disintegrating, I'm not sure the chassis block is affected. I wonder if those can be bought as spares ? Seems a waste of, at the time, £89. I bought it in 2007.

TBH you've done remarkably well if you've only noticed the problem in the last couple of years on an R2421 as this is one of the initial batch of 3 which were very badly affected. I had an R2413 which had developed serious issues by around 2009.
Hornby did offer free replacement chassis blocks for these affected versions but that was a decade back - I'm afraid that as far as manufacturer support is concerned a 19 year old model is now well beyond the statute of limitations.

 

As noted elsewhere in this thread, many of these affected earlier locos have donated their innards to Lima based Class 31s

[david12345]

47 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Hmm, are you sure.?

 

Something isn't right in the photo you posted earlier - it looks like there is a distinct droop to the front portion of the chassis.

 

 

Yip I think you are right.  Maybe becoming a spares donor.