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electrofrog point isolations?


PeteN92
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1. Yes. The switch rails are floating so will not be connected anywhere until one of them (and only one) contacts to a stock rail.

 

2. The switch rails are the moving rails. The stock rails are the fixed rails.

 

3. Yes it does, that is why it will be a good idea to fit a frog switch at some point if you are not going to do it when you lay the point.

 

The point of this process is that you can lay the point and fit the frog switch later, everyone else will either not bother and put up with poor running or fit the frog switch in the first place. There is no magic solution!

 

 

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Thanks, Suzie.

(1) Understood.

(2) Can I just see if I've fully understood your point (2). When doing the full DCC conversion, I think two connecting wires are soldered between the stock and switch rails at the four bare metal strips just before the snipping area. This then gives +ve and -ve feed to the switch rails from the stock rails but only as far as the snipping area, so not into the frog. For your process on DC, we don't do that. Instead we just attach drop wires to each of the two middle metal bars, and attach them both to the frog wire (say via a terminal block). When one of the drop wires is active by the direction of the point, it then energises and controls the polarity of the frog. What I meant by "non-moving part" of the switch rail, was this area - where the drop wires now are - I don't know what this area of the point is called but it's at the far end of the moving part of the switch blades but before you get to the snipped area and the frog! Sorry!

(3)  Understood: After your process I can then choose to fit  the frog switch underneath later if I find the blade contact isn't good enough. Actually, someone told me today that in areas where I can't get underneath for point motors, I can use the Guagemaster PM20 surface motor with a GM500 relay as a switch anywhere I want to put it!  But a bit pricey for the number of points I'm going to have in the sidings!

 

Thnaks for all your feedback.

 

Dave

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AndyID: thanks - you are telling me the same as Suzie - I'm just slow to get there!

 

DavidCBroad - thanks for the background perspective and diagram. Adds to my understanding of the issues. This is a complicated subject until the penny starts to drop. I think I'm going to put a few of these together on my test bench area before I mess up the actual layout!

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55 minutes ago, Dave0-6-0 said:

When doing the full DCC conversion, I think two connecting wires are soldered between the stock and switch rails at the four bare metal strips just before the snipping area. This then gives +ve and -ve feed to the switch rails from the stock rails but only as far as the snipping area, so not into the frog. For your process on DC, we don't do that. Instead we just attach drop wires to each of the two middle metal bars, and attach them both to the frog wire (say via a terminal block). When one of the drop wires is active by the direction of the point, it then energises and controls the polarity of the frog.

 

It makes me cringe when I hear 'Electrofrog wired for DCC' because there really is no such thing.

The only difference is that a brief short circuit will cause DCC to cut power in order to self-protect but overload protection on DC is a lot slower so it will usually just spark.

I wire my points exactly the same for DC as DCC. All my wiring above the board is the same regardless of how the layout is powered. It differs below though.

 

45 minutes ago, Dave0-6-0 said:

This is a complicated subject until the penny starts to drop. I think I'm going to put a few of these together on my test bench area before I mess up the actual layout!

 

Agreed entirely. Most things are complicated until you understand them & this is no different. I expect it will be a case of the penny dropping then you will wonder what all the fuss is about.

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3 hours ago, Dave0-6-0 said:

Thanks, Suzie.

(1) Understood.

(2) Can I just see if I've fully understood your point (2). When doing the full DCC conversion, I think two connecting wires are soldered between the stock and switch rails at the four bare metal strips just before the snipping area. This then gives +ve and -ve feed to the switch rails from the stock rails but only as far as the snipping area, so not into the frog. For your process on DC, we don't do that. Instead we just attach drop wires to each of the two middle metal bars, and attach them both to the frog wire (say via a terminal block). When one of the drop wires is active by the direction of the point, it then energises and controls the polarity of the frog. What I meant by "non-moving part" of the switch rail, was this area - where the drop wires now are - I don't know what this area of the point is called but it's at the far end of the moving part of the switch blades but before you get to the snipped area and the frog! Sorry!

(3)  Understood: After your process I can then choose to fit  the frog switch underneath later if I find the blade contact isn't good enough. Actually, someone told me today that in areas where I can't get underneath for point motors, I can use the Guagemaster PM20 surface motor with a GM500 relay as a switch anywhere I want to put it!  But a bit pricey for the number of points I'm going to have in the sidings!

 

Thnaks for all your feedback.

 

Dave

 

You have got it.

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Hi Dave,

 

If you have not got one already I'd encourage you to get a multi-meter - nothing fancy, a basic one will do. It will help you learn a lot about electric and electronic circuits and after a bit you'll realize they are not complicated at all.

 

I still have the first one I bought in Glasgow when I was about 15. It was expensive! About three quid and that was a lot of money when I was 15. It taught me a lot and has paid for itself many thousands of times over.

 

Slightly beaten-up after 50+ years.

 

DSCN4962.JPG.01df3cbe23d44418c22f4f00f4315763.JPG

 

Cheers!

Andy

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3 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

It makes me cringe when I hear 'Electrofrog wired for DCC' because there really is no such thing.

The only difference is that a brief short circuit will cause DCC to cut power in order to self-protect but overload protection on DC is a lot slower so it will usually just spark.

I wire my points exactly the same for DC as DCC. All my wiring above the board is the same regardless of how the layout is powered. It differs below though.

 

 

Agreed entirely. Most things are complicated until you understand them & this is no different. I expect it will be a case of the penny dropping then you will wonder what all the fuss is about.

Agreed, some posters like to make out that DCC requires 'SPECIAL' wiring for points, whereas it's simply a matter of 'best practice', which suits DC & DCC equally. Yes there are some short cuts that are possible, but many (but not all), find out later that the simplest method leads to frustration.

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10 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Agreed, some posters like to make out that DCC requires 'SPECIAL' wiring for points, whereas it's simply a matter of 'best practice', which suits DC & DCC equally. 

 

The "best practice" is invariably followed for hand-laid track, regardless of the control method. You don't see many "how to build an electrofrog point" over in the Handbuilt Track & Templot forum :) 

 

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28 minutes ago, Crosland said:

 

The "best practice" is invariably followed for hand-laid track, regardless of the control method. You don't see many "how to build an electrofrog point" over in the Handbuilt Track & Templot forum :) 

 

Cue, a number of posters pointing out that they lay Peco's finest, straight out of the box and never have any problems!

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Replied to this earlier but it doesn't seem to have taken.

Suzie: yes I finally got there! Thanks.

Andy: multimeter - yes, indeed. I bought one recently - better late than never!

Pete/Kevin/Crosland: Thanks for your feedback. I stand corrected. Best practice seems to be the same for DCC and DC - wire everything! I would say the only difference is that DCC folks appear to have little choice - a small problem with the switch blade contact and the whole system can trip, whereas some DC folks think they can mostly get through it with fastidiously cleaning of the switch rails and contacts. Suzie and the others were simply giving me a way to easily recover without disassembling everything if I eventually turn out dissatisfied with jerky running or cut-outs over the points even trying my best to maintain the blades. In fact, I suspect they think I will end up going the best practice way in the end but are too nice to say so and will let me discover the truth for myself!

Regards,

David

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I think there are two separate (but related) issues here.

 

1) Switching the frog polarity without relying on contact on the switch blades.

2) Shorting by a wheel back between the switch blade and the outer rails.

 

You don't need to cut the wires underneath in order to switch the frog (which means you can install the switching at a later stage if needed) but as mentioned best practice is to do it all from the outset.

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Hi,

Whatever you do do not cut the closure rails gap underneath the rails linking wires unless you have some form of frog polarity switching in use.  Failure to ensure this and you will have a dead section from the gap in the closure rails to the IRJs on the end of the points Vee rails.

 

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10 hours ago, Crosland said:

 

The "best practice" is invariably followed for hand-laid track, regardless of the control method. You don't see many "how to build an electrofrog point" over in the Handbuilt Track & Templot forum :) 

 

Indeed. One of the nice things about hand built turnouts is that, with any of the common construction methods, they are, pretty much automatically, live frog and, IIRC, self isolating. 

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20 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

 

You don't need to cut the wires underneath in order to switch the frog (which means you can install the switching at a later stage if needed) but as mentioned best practice is to do it all from the outset.

 

11 hours ago, Brian said:

Hi,

Whatever you do do not cut the closure rails gap underneath the rails linking wires unless you have some form of frog polarity switching in use.  Failure to ensure this and you will have a dead section from the gap in the closure rails to the IRJs on the end of the points Vee rails.

 

 

This advice is contrary to @Suzie's method and may be confusing in light of the recent conversation.

 

Suzie says cut the links and bring droppers from the switch rails through the baseboard so that the links can effectively be remade under the baseboards. You can then choose to wire the electrical switching of the frog either the same way as the factory turnout, using the point blades, or using an external switch. And most importantly you can change it without having to rip the turnout up.

 

And critically, you MUST cut the links under the turnout if you ever intend to switch the frog via an external switch. If the links are still intact when an external switch is installed then the frog will be switched by two different circuits and you may momentarily get a dead short if they don’t move at exactly the same time.

 

Suzie’s method allows the links to be cut, the turnout to be permanently installed and frog switching method to be changed at a later date without any risk of momentary shorts.

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Haha. Thanks for your input everyone. Just when I told Suzie I thought I’d got it!

 

My plan had been to proceed as follows:

 

a.      Cut the closure gap to isolate the frog. Do not wire the switch rails directly to the stock rails  but instead take dropper wires down below (one +ve, one -ve). Feed these separately to terminals on a terminal block. Connect the other side of the block to two wires going to the solid unfolded frog wire. As the blades move they simultaneously power the frog and switch it’s polarity. I’m no better off than out-the-box but it’s an interim step to avoid tearing everything up if/when I decide I’m not happy with any stuttering/stalling while slow running my 0-6-0s over the points in the sidings.

 

b.      If/when I decide to go the full way, I reverse the power direction on the droppers. I can either connect them to the stock rails underboard or I can run power directly from the controller, one +ve, one -ve to the droppers This then feeds the switch blades area directly, no longer relying on good contact with the stock rails, and without having to tear up everything to wire the closure rails to the stock rails  with wire directly. The frog is then powered and its polarity switched via a  standard add-on switch to the PL-10e or something like the GM500 if I have to do it above board using something like the Peco PL-11 or Gaugemaster PM20.

 

I hope this makes sense but I may well have missed the point (excuse the pun). Funnily enough, even  if I've got this right, I still feel it a bit odd in part (a) to solder two separate wires to the solid frog dropper, one to the +ve and one to the -ve contact on the terminal block. I know that only one can be live according to which way the point is set, but it somehow doesn’t feel right and maybe there’s a better method?

 

By the way, I suspect everyone thinks I should stop messing about and just go the whole hog and do the full conversion straight away - I’ll think about that!!

 

Regards,

 

Dave

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15 hours ago, Harlequin said:

 

 

This advice is contrary to @Suzie's method and may be confusing in light of the recent conversation.

 

Suzie says cut the links and bring droppers from the switch rails through the baseboard so that the links can effectively be remade under the baseboards. You can then choose to wire the electrical switching of the frog either the same way as the factory turnout, using the point blades, or using an external switch. And most importantly you can change it without having to rip the turnout up.

 

And critically, you MUST cut the links under the turnout if you ever intend to switch the frog via an external switch. If the links are still intact when an external switch is installed then the frog will be switched by two different circuits and you may momentarily get a dead short if they don’t move at exactly the same time.

 

Suzie’s method allows the links to be cut, the turnout to be permanently installed and frog switching method to be changed at a later date without any risk of momentary shorts.

I can not agree with these comments!

If you cut the two closure rail link wires you should install some other form of frog polarity switching. This should be undertaken BEFORE cutting the two link wires. Pre planning should always be the fore.  Never "well perhaps I might" or" I might not". Its I will do it this way...

I don't care what S or X says, if the link wires are cut and nothing else is done the rails from the closure rail gaps to the IRJ on the end of of the Vee rails will become electrically dead.  Period! 

 

Do not try and make matters far worse by saying adding droppers to W & Z will resolve, as this just makes the whole process far worse to understand by the novice and act upon!  Why would anyone ask questions if they were unaware of how the frog and switch rail polarity works?

What on earth is wrong with the very simple process of cutting the two closure rail link wires and adding frog polarity switching by whatever means is chosen.  Gosh if the installer cant decide on how the point is to operate and switch the frog polarity from onset and then to proved frog switching - mechanical by the point motor or point switch or electronic frog juicer on DCC then no pre planning / investigation has been undertaken.

 

Harlequin .. IMO your comments are just making matters far more confusing and complex to everyone who may read this article.  Its so simple to do and your and others who you say are better suggestions IMO make more work than is ever needed! 

Typically and as suggested and what your advocating is adding FIVE dropper wires instead of two plus the frog existing wire!   Hmm.

I rest my case :o 

 

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Brian

 

Please accept that there is an interesting solution to this thread. I would not do it this way, and you would not do it this way, but it is a solution for someone that wants to lay their track and try operating their points without an auxiliary switch that is reversible without having to take up the track. The OP has understood the solution, so please stop telling him that it won't work - it will!

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11 hours ago, Brian said:

 

I can not agree with these comments!

If you cut the two closure rail link wires you should install some other form of frog polarity switching.

I don't care what S or X says, if the link wires are cut and nothing else is done the rails from the closure rail gaps to the IRJ on the end of of the Vee rails will become electrically dead.  Period! 

 

Do not try and make matters far worse by saying bonding X to Y and adding droppers to W & Z will resolve as this just make the whole process far worse to understand by the novice and act upon! 

What on earth is wrong with the very simple process of cutting the two link wires and adding frog polarity switching by whatever means is chosen. 

IMO your comments are just making matters far more complex and confusing to everyone who may read this article.  Its so simple to do and your / other suggestions make more work than is ever needed!  

 

The frog will always be switched. No one is suggesting leaving the frog and the V rails unpowered. Suzie’s method just allows someone to choose how the frog is switched after the turnout has been installed, with one of those options being to rely on the point blades in just the same way as the turnout works out of the packet. So there’s no need for an external switch in the simplest case and the turnout does not need to be removed to later change the switching method. But to avoid having to remove the turnout later the links must be cut before installation.

 

It’s simple and very clever - no more difficult to do than the usual recommended best practice for modifying electrofrog turnouts. I wish I had done it on my little test layout.

 

Dave gets it.

Edited by Harlequin
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Edit I didn't notice this is in the DC section

The label "DCC bus " should be replaced with From DC Controller

This diagram will work with DCC & DC as is

 

If i understand correctly then this is what been suggested but as a drawing

 

1625347973_frogcontroll.png.37a1d63d2fab28606403156c6fdc6786.png

In the top image the frog is switched by the point blades as it was straight out of the box

 

in the lower image the frog is switched by a switch which can be part of the point motor or a switch mechanically interlocked to the point blade

 Edit  only applies to DCC (the switch could be replaced with a frog juicer) 

The point blades are always alive & there is no reliance on the point blade contact

Hope this helps

John

 

Edited by John ks
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7 hours ago, Suzie said:

Brian

 

Please accept that there is an interesting solution to this thread. I would not do it this way, and you would not do it this way, but it is a solution for someone that wants to lay their track and try operating their points without an auxiliary switch that is reversible without having to take up the track. The OP has understood the solution, so please stop telling him that it won't work - it will!

The highlighted section is the key, so that a switch can be incorporated at sometime in the future or indeed never. Connecting the droppers up to simulate the original Peco configuration as supplied in the box, means that reliability is no worse.

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3 hours ago, John ks said:

Edit I didn't notice this is in the DC section

The label "DCC bus " should be replaced with From DC Controller

This diagram will work with DCC & DC as is

 

If i understand correctly then this is what been suggested but as a drawing

 

1625347973_frogcontroll.png.37a1d63d2fab28606403156c6fdc6786.png

In the top image the frog is switched by the point blades as it was straight out of the box

 

in the lower image the frog is switched by a switch which can be part of the point motor or a switch mechanically interlocked to the point blade

 Edit  only applies to DCC (the switch could be replaced with a frog juicer) 

The point blades are always alive & there is no reliance on the point blade contact

Hope this helps

John

 

 

These diagrams are excellent!

 

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Thanks, Johnks. The diagrams are excellent and say in a very shorthand way what I was trying to say in my lengthy paragraphs.

 

I fully understand the lower diagram. On the upper diagram, can I just doublecheck what’s happening on the left-hand side of the terminal block. I assume top left of the TB (strip 1) is a wire soldered to the solid frog wire. Bottom left of the TB strip 1: can I just check that there are actually two wires connected to the one screw area, one +ve and one -ve with each one going to the appropriate place at the bottom of strips 4 and 5 of the block? Normally that would give me the shivers but I guess only one wire can ever be live depending on the point direction. Also, I assume that if this is what the diagram means,  whatever polarity is live from the active switch blade will feed back through this system to the open switch blade but that won't matter as we've snipped the connector further downstream?

 

Regards,

Dave

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Kevin,

 

"....simulate the original Peco configuration as supplied in the box, means that reliability is no worse." Love it - I think that translates with the Oxford English Dictionary to "the plan works really well, ultimately gives the same rubbish outcome everyone's been trying to avoid from the out-the-box electrofrogs, but now he doesn't have to rip everything up when he finally decides that for himself" !!!!

 

And I guess everything's relative - you should see the performance I'm currently getting from Insulfrog points in my slow shunting sidings, even trying to keep them scrupulously clean and well wired. Actually, come to think of it, you're probably best not seeing it....

 

Dave

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6 hours ago, Dave0-6-0 said:

On the upper diagram, can I just doublecheck what’s happening on the left-hand side of the terminal block. I assume top left of the TB (strip 1) is a wire soldered to the solid frog wire .YES

Bottom left of the TB strip 1: can I just check that there are actually two wires connected to the one screw area, one +ve and one -ve with each one going to the appropriate place at the bottom of strips 4 and 5 of the block? The three terminals (Edit1,3 & 4) 1,4 & 5 are looped together, this makes the point electrically the same as it was straight out of the box 

 

 

John

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