Radio control and operations

[davidmcc3]

On coming back to railway modelling after 20+ years, and without an existing layout ... I have the opportunity for a 'clean start'.

 

I am very tempted by radio/wireless control, partly because it's different, but mostly because it does away with layout wiring. I've been watching our latest club layout taking shape and, even though it's going to be DCC, there are a profusion of droppers down the the main bus. And that's without sorting out the polarity switching on the frogs. I'd been thinking about the ProtoCab system, but have now 'discovered' Deltang though RMWeb ... which I need to investigate. My first challenge will be getting radio control gear and a battery into the smallest loco I'll have ... an SE Finecast SR E1/R 0-6-2T.

 

However ... this post is about operational aspects of a layout. I've been thinking about potential problems with a system which will allow a loco to run over points set against it. On a conventional track-powered system, this can be prevented by interlocking the power with the points and/or signals. Obviously with battery-powered locos this doesn't work!

 

What strategies or aids have people come up with to (help) prevent this from happening? Even if I remember, what of other operators less familiar with RC?

 

Thanks, David

 

 

[fallen]

Hi David,

 

Glad to hear you are thinking of using radio control.

 

The Deltang system is well suited to the smaller scales, and also not too expensive, less expensive that the Protocab system.

 

I model mostly in 009 and 3mm and I manage to squeeze on the batteries and radio OK, so I hope you can do it with your locos.

 

As you have spotted, the radio control locos are just like the real ones - they set off when you turn the control knob, without needing a nudge from on high, and also if you drive them through a point set against them then they derail just like the real ones too. I don't have a quick technical fix for this, but it is something you seem to get used to quite quickly and once you are in the routine of checking the route then it seems not to be a problem.

 

Frank

[Robin2]

However ... this post is about operational aspects of a layout. I've been thinking about potential problems with a system which will allow a loco to run over points set against it.

 

Just like the real thing ?

 

I am experimenting with cheap BPR/C in 00Gauge using an Atmega 328 and an nRF24L01+ wireless transceiver and Arduino programming. I think the total cost on the loco is about £12. It seems to work fine. Some time ago I used the Deltang units (with my own programming) in some N-Gauge locos.

 

 

partly because it's different

This has a lot to do with my interest in BPR/C

 

...R

[davetheroad]

Radio control with battery power is certainly interesting. My layout has no wiring and a couple of years into radio control I am convinced I made the right decision.

 

Don't worry about running through points etc, it is just like the real thing and you can stop the loco very quickly anyway, without tripping all the circuits on your controller , be it DC or DCC..

 

Is your little 0-6-2 is a metal kit?. In any case it depends how much space you have inside the loco. You will have to fit in the receiver board, possibly a voltage booster and a small battery. It would be useful to know how many milliamps the loco draws under load and you can do this by initially installing the receiver and battery in a wagon and leading the wires to the loco. Pickups are best removed IMO.

[a98087]

To prevent trains running through points have you thought about doing as they do on the real railway and installing a signal interlocking?

 

You could even have working track circuits for train detection and route setting.

 

And I run radio control in the garden and it was arrest decision, no more track cleaning, the train runs and runs until it runs out of track or battery!

[davidmcc3]

I've finally finished the loft conversion, so I'm now beginning the detailed layout planning, including wiring and control.

 

Having read again about RC (and Deltang in particular) it's occurred to me that there will/could be significant operational problems for a layout requiring more than one operator ... especially in an exhibition environment.

 

My layout will have hidden sidings at both ends, and there will need to be some sharing of locomotive duties between three or four operators, I've just read that any loco receiver can only be 'bound' (and therefore controlled) by a single transmitter.

 

Apart from passing many transmitters back and forth, has anyone any ideas about how this problem could be overcome?

 

Thanks, David

[SimonME46]

I believe the Deltang selecta transmitters can bind with 12 locos. Given their cheap cost, I see this as an advantage. My plan is to make my transmitters more like cab backheads anyway, so why not have one that looks like a black 5/Stanier loco and have it bound to 12 different locos? So if I need to drive a loco, I collect the correct transmitter. I can also have the receiver bound to other transmitters, it is not 1:1, it is many to many, but only 1tx at a time. Not sure that makes sense!

[fallen]

Hi David,

 

As Simon says, you can bind a transmitter to a large number of locos, and using Selecta the TX22 variant can select from up to 12 at any one time. However, as far as I know you can only bind a given loco to one transmitter at a time so if you want to switch it to another transmitter you have to switch off the first one and then bind it to the second. Not what you would want to do I suspect.

 

Another way to think about it is to put yourself in the position of being a driver. You are driving one train at a time, and you follow it around. You can stop one and take control of a second using the Selecta system. If you want two trains running at once you will need two drivers, each with their own transmitter, and so on. So instead of thinking about operators controlling areas of track, think about drivers driving trains. Does is help?

 

Frank

[davetheroad]

I believe the Deltang receivers when used with Tx-22 transmitters have a mode which allows control of the locos to be passed from one transmitter to another. I am not sure how it works in detail but I think you have to stop the loco to make the change. In essence you are performing a 'crew change'.

 

There  is also the number of locos to consider. If it was a small number I would just give each loco its own transmitter as a Tx is less than £30 in kit form.

[davidmcc3]

Many thanks for the replies.

 

I've been mulling this over (while doing other things) for the past few days - I often find if I 'park' a problem and let my unconscious mind work on it, a solution pops up after a while.

 

I agree that RC means looking at operations from a train crew perspective, as it is actually the train that's driven. And the crew wouldn't be dashing about between any number of locos, which is what DCC is.

 

So I've hit on the idea of using the concept of links (the hierarchy of duty rosters) to allocate, on a more or less permanent basis, locos to controllers.

 

My project of representing Barnstaple Junction in the mid-30's is ambitious (and people probably think I'm mad to attempt it). I'm thinking of having a controller for each of the following:

• Main line passenger duties - these will be mostly N1 class 2-6-0, probably half a dozen, plus a T9 4-4-0
• Secondary passenger duties - M7 0-4-4T x3, T1 0-4-4T x 2, Ei/R 0-6-2T x 3
• Freight duties - a mixed bag of N1, M7, E1/R, L11 4-4-0, 700 class 0-6-0
• Station pilot - an E1/R
• Great Western services into Barnstaple Junction - 45xx 2-6-2T, 26xx 2-6-0T, an 0-6-0 tender goods and possibly a Bulldog

The actual numbers of locos required isn't fully decided as I'm still working on the final Working Timetable, but a given loco will always be allocated to a specific set of duties. The Station Pilot controller can be the simple single loco one, which I'll get first to practice my soldering skills on - I already have the E1/R kit (just waiting for wheels).

 

To operate fully (at exhibition?), I'll need two hidden sidings operators and three train operators. I can see the Station Pilot and Freight being one operator's duties, with the GWR services being picked up by whoever is free ... being a separate controller allows for this.

 

Looking back through this thread and thinking about some things I've read about RC recently, I'm wondering if I should be experimenting with alternative motors instead of using the ubiquitous Mashimas (which are 12v).

 

Are others achieving good results with 12v motors, or are you fitting something else ... and if so, what?

 

Best regards, David

[davetheroad]

David

 

I have 30 locos and although I only operate on my own There is scope for 3 operators as I have done what you are considering.

 

All transmitters are Tx-22's

 

Transmitter AAA has 5x 4-6-2, 4x 4-6-0, a 4-4-0 and a 2-6-4 tank for mainline passenger work.

 

Transmitter BBB has 2x 3F 0-6-0, a 4F 0-6-0, 2x 2-6-0, a black 5 4-6-0, a 0-8-0, Stanier 2-8-0 Austerity 2-8-0 and a 9F 2-10-0, all for freight, the 3F's can be consisted.

 

Transmitter CCC has 2x 2P 4-4-0, 2x 2MT 2-6-0, a jinty 0-6-0, a 'freight' compound 4-4-0, a derby lightweight DMU and a pug 4-4-0, mostly for branch line work., the 2P's can be consisted.

 

all my 00 scale locos have the original 12V motors and I run two power configurations, The 9V with voltage booster uses either a single 1S  lipo or a 2S lipo for locos with over 0.4A current draw. the other mostly freights use a simple 2S battery operating at a nominal 7.4V. The 9V configuration allows all my big locos to pull a 12 coach train at over scale 60mph !. the 2s batteries give over 30mph for the freights which is technically more than they were allowed to do.

[kada33]

Hi to all

I use the Deltang system to control my Gauge 1 locos and I got all my help from Rik Bennett who has a blog spot on Google. I have added a link to this in one of the other RC topics but I'm adding it again here with what I think will help with the current posts above.

 

He has bound 11 of his locos to a tx22 and sets one off running round his garden and then selects another loco to shunt a siding.

This is all explained in the following link.

 

Www.riksrailway.blogspot.co.uk

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Contents

Battery power/Radio Control

Then the 2nd item down.

 

The TX22 can also be turned off once the loco has reached the required speed, this can conserve the battery.

In Gauge1 on a large layout this is not a problem, I have also programmed the bind button to be an EM stop, this useful if you running using the Ineria control.

 

If any further details are needed then please ask.

On Rik's blog spot it shows the build of my TX22 under one of his TX builds.

 

Dave

[Robin2]

I guess I am more interested in computer projects than in running trains. Once I know it works I get bored quickly.

 

For my N-Gauge trains I wrote a small web server program that runs on my PC and communicates with the trains. You can control the trains either in a browser on the PC or on a smart phone. The server knows which browser has charge of which Loco and another browser can take charge of any "free" loco.

 

By doing it as a web server there was no need to develop software for the phone.

 

I am now slowly developing the same system for 00 gauge using nRF24L01+ wireless transceivers. Most of the PC program will be the same.

 

...R