Southern Railway in the 1950s and onwards

[phil-b259]

It is a wonder in this day and age why SWT still bothers as they gave up on the Cornish business ages ago and it will be interesting to see how the Plymouth, Okehampton, Exeter revival fares, if it ever comes to pass.

 

SWT did not just 'give up' on serving destinations beyond Exeter - it was a rolling stock shortage which meant either they carried on sending the odd train beyond Exeter OR provide an hourly Waterloo - Exeter service only.

 

Given the investment in the extra passing loop at Axminster, plus heavy pressure from official stakeholders and users of the line it was a pretty obvious which way the decision would go.

 

People forget that while the GWR route might be quicker end to end, it has very little by way of intermediate traffic generators once past Newbury. The SR route by contrast does serve some quite substantial places (either directly or indirectly as people drive to places like Templecombe for trains to London).

Edited April 15, 2016 by phil-b259

[Joseph_Pestell]

Far be it for me to comment on these ramblings,  but I will!  Au contraire with everybody else,  IMHO SR would have dumped everything further west than Salisbury!  It only went into darkest Cornwall to unite with the B & W tracks just because it was theirs anyway.  Never contributed a heck of a lot before or since which can be said of much of its lines West   Whatever made them think the NCR would ever make a reasonable profit wending its way from one hamlet to another trying to emulate the GW with its coastal holiday haunts.  It didn't go for freight; Delabole slate, some china clay the GW didn't get to and the odd general merchandise hardly paid the wages.  As has been mentioned, the plum port of Plymouth was too much further over the Moors to be competitive and look what happened to the short lived Ocean Liner traffic.  Exeter was served handsomely by the GW, providing a quicker service to the Capital, and everything between there and Salisbury was of little consequence plus the branch lines to the coast were an added expence.  It is a wonder in this day and age why SWT still bothers as they gave up on the Cornish business ages ago and it will be interesting to see how the Plymouth, Okehampton, Exeter revival fares, if it ever comes to pass.

 

Sure the old SR served a lot of places and was much loved no doubt, but that was an era before buses, cars and freeways which is the reasoning behind these comments.

 

Brian..

,

 

Today's SWT is doing very nicely on the Exeter line thankyou with trains running well filled throughout the day. It was perhaps not quite so clever in NSE days with nine-coach trains and a big loco to pay for.

[Zomboid]

Today's SWT is doing very nicely on the Exeter line thankyou with trains running well filled throughout the day. It was perhaps not quite so clever in NSE days with nine-coach trains and a big loco to pay for.

Which is why the SR would have been dragging 4 car EMUs with a medium powered loco...

[Peter Bedding]

I can be as much a blinkered romantic, with regard to the South Western's main line to the West, as anyone, but one fact will always come to the surface. The lovely pair of structures, which together still form the Meldon Viaduct, were under-engineered almost from the outset. It is not that there was a conspiracy to close the structure at the end of the 1960s, but the policies of patch repairs, make do and mend, simply had nowhere else to go. To keep the route open for economic train weights and speeds would have essentially required complete replacement of this one viaduct. Static loads were such that ever more angle iron was being needed to reinforce the original structures, and dynamic loads had required substantial mass concrete at the base of each of the wrought iron piles to prevent the whole thing from wandering off-alignment. Corrosion was an unknown, unmeasured problem. And that was in 1947, before the unloved and brown-hatted hatchet-men of Paddington were involved.

 

Such a replacement would have been feasible, and at a cost less than the rescue of a failed bank, but that is a different proposition.

 

PB

[Nearholmer]

Indeed.

 

I remember many journeys behind Cromptons, hauling eight or nine car sets, where, West of Salisbury, all the passengers on the train could have fitted comfortably into two, let alone four, coaches. The weight of the train made for a very slow schedule given the gradients. I recall a ride with two Cromptons, 2xTC, and one of those "wired buffets" that used to exist, where the train whipped the normal schedule to pieces, because it had a better power/weight ratio.

 

K

[Zomboid]

I think the issue of Meldon viaduct is acknowledged. I suppose the question is whether the 1950s SR would think having a route to Tavistock and Plymouth (and if they remain, Padstow and Bude) makes it worth dealing with.

I reckon they probably would want to compete for Plymouth traffic, but I suppose the size of the bill would be the variable. If I were on the board I wouldn't want to let the GWR have a monopoly on a major port/ naval city.

[Nearholmer]

Zomboid

 

I set out my thoughts on some of this in Post 4 .......... I think SR would have concluded some sort of agreement with the GWR over the East of Exeter to Plymouth passenger traffic, as had been mooted many times before. Goods might have been a bit different, because most of it isn't so time-critical, but the SR route must have been quite expensive to work.

 

K

[Rivercider]

When trying to work out what should have been done, or what could have been done in the 1950s is so difficult as there are so many variable factors and we now have the benefit of hindsight. It is especially difficult for me to be objective about it as four generations of my family were involved in the railway in East Devon from the construction of the L&SWR route right through to the handover of the lines to the Western Region.

 

I think there would have to be some retrenchment and agree that Padstow would be best served by the Western, and the Torrington to Halwill route would have become freight only and truncated to serve the clay pits. This would leave Halwill Junction as a simple passing loop on a very basic Bude Branch.

Obviously the Southern would not have carried out the drastic singling of the Salisbury - Exeter route, the towns along the line deserved better than an erratic two hourly service as has been proved by increased passenger figures since the hourly service was introduced.

Exeter Central serves the centre of the city much better than St Davids, and in 2014/15 almost as many passengers used Central (2.344m) as used St Davids (2.509m). Much of this is because the Exmouth branch carries more than all the other branches in Devon and Cornwall, put together!

The Southern recognised this. Colin Maggs in his book The Exeter and Exmouth Railway mentions the plans announced in 1957 for diesel electric trains on the East Devon branches and the depot was to be built at Exmouth Junction on the downside of the line. The train plans to be implemented in 1959 included a 20 minute interval service between Budleigh Salterton - Exmouth - Exeter Central which included a new island platform and signal box at Exton, so they certainly thought investment was justified in the west. The scheme was postponed by government economy restrictions.

 

cheers

Edited April 15, 2016 by Rivercider

[Zomboid]

Zomboid

 

I set out my thoughts on some of this in Post 4 .......... I think SR would have concluded some sort of agreement with the GWR over the East of Exeter to Plymouth passenger traffic, as had been mooted many times before. Goods might have been a bit different, because most of it isn't so time-critical, but the SR route must have been quite expensive to work.

 

K

The thing with that is that, in a world with no nationalisation, the GWR route isn't exactly without it's problems, by which I mean Dawlish. That is at least as much of a money sink as Meldon would have been, if not worse. The route does serve more, and bigger settlements, but it's not like the GWR would have HS1 to offer.

Maybe both companies would have gone in on the GWRs Dawlish bypass idea, thus largely solving the problem for both of them. With our EMU and diesel loco trains it would only take some MU wiring to the loco to make the turn round at St Davids into a triviality. And as if by magic we've just invented the 33/1 and 4TC set... (the locos would look more like an F unit, though... Edit: For anyone who hasn't seen a Southern Railway F Unit: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/pictures/81797/DSC_0905.JPG).

Edited April 15, 2016 by Zomboid

[eastwestdivide]

We're all looking west in this scenario, but would there have been any interesting developments in the other direction, i.e. towards continental Europe? 

[Nearholmer]

Zomboid

 

I like this line of thinking: the agreement that we sign with the GWR to include "mutual support" clauses.

 

And, yes, I'd taken it for granted that our locos would all MU with our EMUs.

 

Still not sure I like locos with noses, and the SR definitely didn't, which is why the big trial units came out looking as they did.

 

That 33-TC-RMB-TC-33 combo that I mentioned earlier was on a rail-tour called The Thames Tamar Express, in 1977, and it did indeed reverse at Exeter and run down the GWR, getting as far as Carne Point. It was one the best "grand days out" I've been on - the train performed like an HST.

 

EWD

 

Good question; we've certainly neglected continental traffic.

 

I suppose the question is: what was the earliest date at which a Channel Tunnel might have been completed? And, the answer probably hangs mainly on when it might have been possible to scrape-together enough capital, and then tie it up for the construction and payback period. And, would the government have chipped-in with underwritten loans or something?

 

Er, I dunno!

 

Kevin

[BG John]

I watched an appalling 1935 film called "Transatlantic Tunnel" recently. It's set in the future, so probably around the 1950s, as the engineer in charge had built the Channel Tunnel in about 1940. Maybe the Southern would have been in a race with the GWR to expand their services in the West Country, to take advantage of trains to the USA, and rebuilt the line all the way to London to the American loading gauge!

 

[autocoach]

The thing with that is that, in a world with no nationalisation, the GWR route isn't exactly without it's problems, by which I mean Dawlish. That is at least as much of a money sink as Meldon would have been, if not worse. The route does serve more, and bigger settlements, but it's not like the GWR would have HS1 to offer.

Maybe both companies would have gone in on the GWRs Dawlish bypass idea, thus largely solving the problem for both of them. With our EMU and diesel loco trains it would only take some MU wiring to the loco to make the turn round at St Davids into a triviality. And as if by magic we've just invented the 33/1 and 4TC set... (the locos would look more like an F unit, though... Edit: For anyone who hasn't seen a Southern Railway F Unit: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/pictures/81797/DSC_0905.JPG).

Southern Railway (US) steam era sylvan green was somewhat close to malachite. 

[brianusa]

<<<<SWT did not just 'give up' on serving destinations beyond Exeter - it was a rolling stock shortage.....

 

Forgive the expression, I didn't know the reason but they ceased running there.  Incidentally, there were others running in Cornwall, were there not, apart from FGW?  Some interesting points raised, so what about the other way?  As service is retained to Exeter and  Salisbury third railed, it is possible that electrics might run all the way sometime.  Its not that far from Salisbury!  However, the core business as in the days of the SR and its predecessors, was between London and the south coast and these days this is well within the commuter belt.  Its lines in the Home Counties are extensive and well served (some may differ) so they have their hands full already and its doubtful if any further developments would be forthcoming.  Interesting to speculate though. 

 

Brian
 

[Zomboid]

Southern Railway (US) steam era sylvan green was somewhat close to malachite.

The US Southern used very similar lettering to the UK as well, in at least two iterations. The coincidental similarities in corporate image are quite remarkable. Though I wouldn't know how coincidental they actually are.

[Joseph_Pestell]

We have taken it as read that every line east of Southampton would be electrified. But that is not the case even today and some quite important lines have only been done in the last 30 years e.g. East Grinstead.

 

I think the Southern may have been more careful about closing alternative routes such as Uckfield - Lewes and East Grinstead - Haywards Heath.

[bike2steam]

Today's SWT is doing very nicely on the Exeter line thankyou with trains running well filled throughout the day. It was perhaps not quite so clever in NSE days with nine-coach trains and a big loco to pay for.

Indeed, with it's rapid expansion Gillingham ( that's the one in Dorset, with a 'heavy' G - as in gun) now is in the London commuter range.

[Nearholmer]

JP

 

I do take it for granted that a continuing SR would have carried through its clearly-stated electrification plans with vigour, because the payback is so good when going direct from steam to electric, and because they could have raised the capital, whereas BR had to string things out because of capital starvation. Just think of how much money BR spent in a penny-wise, pound-foolish way on Standard steamers, then DEMUs, for secondary lines in Kent, Sussex and Hampshire; that could all have been avoided by electrifying in the early 1950s.

 

And, my gut feel is that, by electrifying sooner, they could have kept more routes open, simply because the effective footprint of "commuter land" would have been larger. But, even east of the Southampton Main Line, there were some duplicated routes, and routes that served a series of "nowheresvilles" - Midhurst really didn't need three routes, for instance, and the line through Sheffield Park is very close indeed to both the Uckfield Line and the Brighton Line.

 

K

[The Stationmaster]

Indeed.

 

I remember many journeys behind Cromptons, hauling eight or nine car sets, where, West of Salisbury, all the passengers on the train could have fitted comfortably into two, let alone four, coaches. The weight of the train made for a very slow schedule given the gradients. I recall a ride with two Cromptons, 2xTC, and one of those "wired buffets" that used to exist, where the train whipped the normal schedule to pieces, because it had a better power/weight ratio.

 

K

 

The standard procedure to achieve punctual when the Cromptons were on the Salisbury - Exeter route was to turn off the ETH train supply when departing from most stations.  in fact there were one or two places where the train would have got into major difficulties if the ETH hadn't been turned off.

 

If nationalisation hadn't happened I'm quite sure the Southern would have seen Exeter as a natural centre to cultivate with gradually improving levels of service from London but closure of intermediate stations west of Salisbury very much as happened.  More of the branchline network in east Devon might have survived but Lyme Regis would have gone and I suspect Sidmouth would have too - but Seaton might well have survived plus both routes to Exmouth.  

 

Yeovil would, i expect, have done rather better than has actually been the case although Town station might still have gone with onlya  rump service from the Junction left when the GWR closed the Taunton line.  However the GWR would undoubtedly have continued to concentrate on Channel Islands traffic via Weymouth as it was an important route for both passengers and freight - would the Southern service from Southampton have survived (especially if we also ignore changes to civil aviation and assume RAS continued to operate with its strong GWR involvement and fleet modernisation continuing through to the jet age, real blue skies thinking there ).

 

The big question mark is 'beyond Exeter' with the probable exception of Barnstaple and as others have said I think Bodmin/Padstow would have been ceded to the GWR - if it wanted the section beyond Wadebridge that is.

 

By the late 1950s both the SR and GWR would be running 2,000ish hp diesels on their West of England services so acceleration on the two routes would probably go roughly in step.

[phil-b259]

We have taken it as read that every line east of Southampton would be electrified. But that is not the case even today and some quite important lines have only been done in the last 30 years e.g. East Grinstead.

 

I think the Southern may have been more careful about closing alternative routes such as Uckfield - Lewes and East Grinstead - Haywards Heath.

I think East Grinstead - Haywards Heath would have gone regardless - without massive new house building at the likes West Hoathly there simply would simply be no demand. Passengers from the south coast could have changed at Three Bridges on to the East Grinstead branch there - which with the growth of Gatwick and Crawley new town would have made sense to keep open.

 

Other lines that would have probably survived include the Guildford - Christs Hospital (with electrics extended from Guildford to Cranleigh) and Christs Hospital - Shoreham (with the Horsham electric terminators extended to Southwater). In both cases no new substations would have not been needed - being fed on a stub end basis like Haywards Heath to Horsted Keynes of Redhill to Reigate.

 

Over in East Sussex the Oxted / Tunbridge Wells / Lewes lines would have survived and been electrified (BR drew up plans to do this under the modernisation plan before Beeching / the cuts in the 60s dropped them in favour of closures) but the future of the East Grinstead - Ashurst and Eridge to Hailsham is less clear cut. Hailsham to Polgate would likely to have survived (BR kept that stub running a good 5 years after the rest of the Cuckoo line was shut).

 

In Hampshire the Alton - Winchester line would still be with us but again, others are less clear cut. The test valley line from Andover when examined form today's viewpoint looks like it might have scraped through but the Sailsbury - Ringwood would probably have gone. Brockenhurst - Ringwood - Poole would most likely still be with us but I can see the S&DJR succumbing to closure north of Blandford, with the line southwards being kept and feeding commuters into the Poole / Bournemouth area.

 

The Swanage branch is a difficult call because much of its traffic was seasonal and even if nationalisation hadn't happened, the advent of jet engine powered mass air travel would still have occurred with the resultant knock on effects to UK seaside resorts.

 

In Devon the Lyme Regis Seaton and Sidmouth stub would have scumbed to the closure but the line via Ottery St Mary to Exmouth could have developed into quite a popular commuter route for people working in Exeter

Edited June 3, 2016 by phil-b259

[Allegheny1600]

I suppose the question is: what was the earliest date at which a Channel Tunnel might have been completed? And, the answer probably hangs mainly on when it might have been possible to scrape-together enough capital, and then tie it up for the construction and payback period. And, would the government have chipped-in with underwritten loans or something?

 

Ah, Government!

There's a good point. IF nationalisation had not occurred (assuming a Conservative Churchillian victory in 1945?) and the railway companies had carried on as before - were the 'big 4' completely independant of government?

I ask, as I know the grouping happened in 1923 - as an alternative to nationalisation but I don't know if there was ever governmental control/interference between 1923-1948, as there is in our current situation (since privatisation!).

 

The US Southern used very similar lettering to the UK as well, in at least two iterations. The coincidental similarities in corporate image are quite remarkable. Though I wouldn't know how coincidental they actually are.

AFAIK, the US "Southern Railway" based some of it's corporate image on our "Southern Railway" - as a deliberate policy. I'm sure I read somewhere in the distant past that one of their chief executives loved our Southern!

See here for a brief mention: http://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_214493

 

As an aside, with no nationalisation - wouldn't Ivatt have stayed with the LMS until retirement? (I liked his pacifics best!).

Cheers,

John.

 

Edit for poor spelling etc.

Edited April 17, 2016 by Allegheny1600

[Nearholmer]

Allegheny

 

The biggest " interference" issues were the regulatory positions around limits on fares, and the obligation to act as a "common carrier", both of which were part of the price that early railways paide for being permitted to dig up the countryside and knock down people's' houses, and both of which were serious bones on contention in the thirties.

 

If the obligations hadn't been modified, as they eventually were for BR, then the railways would have been trying to run with their shoelaces tied together.

 

K

[autocoach]

 

AFAIK, the US "Southern Railway" based some of it's corporate image on our "Southern Railway" - as a deliberate policy. I'm sure I read somewhere in the distant past that one of their chief executives loved our Southern!

See here for a brief mention: http://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_214493

 

 

The US Southern Railway started painting their P series Pacifics in their distinctive  shade of sylvan green in 1925. While it may have been inspired by the British practice of painting locomotives in distinctive company colors (LNWR?), it was not inspired by Bulleid's malachite green of the 1930's although the color is close. I have used US Polly S model paint color Sylvan Green when repainting a Hornby Maunsell to represent a 1940's repaint. It compares favorably to the Hornby version which is way to dark. 

Edited April 17, 2016 by autocoach

[Zomboid]

I imagine east of the Bournemouth main line routes would have been electrified or closed ultimately. For single lines the electrification can be quite lightweight as you can't fit that many trains into them.

I doubt the test valley line would have made it though, wasn't it a pre-Beeching closure?

[Mr Jorrox]

Ah, Mr Bulleid, brilliant, brilliant man! (Imagine gentle shaking of heads)

 

But, the Board wasn't entirely distressed when he left to head-up the new jointly-funded National Locomotives Testing facility, where his creative talents can probably be best deployed.

 

...

 

 

Bulleid would not have been appointed to manage such a place and he could not have stayed at the Southern for very much longer than a year or two after 1950, at the very latest.  His seriously flawed 'brainchild' cost BR nearly £180,000/0/0, and that was for: one running, albeit with very serious problems and nowhere nearly ready for service, locomotive; one very nearly complete and could have been turned out within a few days but thank providence not a shilling was wasted on coal for it locomotive; one well on the way to completion but, given the time it took the Southern to build a locomotive, not before Christmas 1949, nor for some months after, locomotive; two 'set of frames with wheels, boiler plus firebox plus smokebox kit for a locomotive' locomotives.  Who can doubt that had he remained as CME of the Southern all five of the overweight, money burning, Kitson-Meyer type, M7 Waterloo to Clapham empty stock shunter replacements would have been completed and cost a great deal more than the bill paid by the Great British Tax Payer.  If I recall correctly Bulleid advised the Board of Directors that one prototype and five production locomotives could be built for £27,000/0/0 for the prototype and £5,000/0/0 for each production locomotive.

 

I think Bulleid would have been on his way by 1952, without a reference, and nationalisation, and Robin Riddles, saved his reputation and his skin.

 

For the avoidance of doubt, I like the Leader, and all of Bulleid's output, even the Tavern sets as built, I just don't think he had a future in England as the CME of a profitable enterprise.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Mr Jorrox