East Coast Mainline Blockade for Werrington Junction diveunder

[Crun]

16 minutes ago, Donington Road said:

 

Shame it is a very restricted view around that area.   It needs a few tree surgeons to open it up a bit.

Or you could buy that drone you have been promising yourself Chris

 

We have drones at work but I am not qualified to fly any I am sorry to say. Perhaps I could persuade the drone pilots to train over Werrington Junction?

[Donington Road]

A few clips from today at Cock Lane.

 

 

[Crun]

1 hour ago, Donington Road said:

A few clips from today at Cock Lane.

 

 

 

Plenty of excavation work on the dive under. A brief view of a Little Egret on the bank of the remodelled brook with its artificially created meanders towards the end of the film.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Crun

[corneliuslundie]

Amusing that is it still officially known as the "Joint Line" nearly a century after ownership ceased to be joint.

And I would have been happier if that happy band of brothers had not been standing idly with their backs to an operating railway line.

Jonathan

[melmerby]

17 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Amusing that is it still officially known as the "Joint Line" nearly a century after ownership ceased to be joint.

 

Jonathan

It's never been joint.

The line from Peterborough to Spalding & Boston etc. was Great Northern. Spalding station was 100% Great Northern

The line from March through Spalding to Sleaford was GN & GE Jt. and used the GN station

Also through Spalding was the M & GN Jt with connections to the GN.

 

An interesting fact is that Werrington Junction was originally where the GN from Spalding joined the Midland's Peterborough to Stamford line.

The GN main North-South line was a relative latecomer to the scene and hadn't yet been built.

Edited July 21, 2020 by melmerby

[Richard E]

55 minutes ago, melmerby said:

It's never been joint.

The line from Peterborough to Spalding & Boston etc. was Great Northern. Spalding station was 100% Great Northern

The line from March through Spalding to Sleaford was GN & GE Jt. and used the GN station

Also through Spalding was the M & GN Jt with connections to the GN.

 

An interesting fact is that Werrington Junction was originally where the GN from Spalding joined the Midland's Peterborough to Stamford line.

The GN main North-South line was a relative latecomer to the scene and hadn't yet been built.

 

But it is known as the Joint line on official noticeboards irrespective of any history getting in the way!

 

(screen grab from Donington Road video).

 

The Joint Line originally, and correct me if I'm wrong, came off and ran along the line of the A47 from Rhubarb Bridge towards Eye as far as I understand, the road using the old trackbed for some distance.

Edited July 21, 2020 by Richard E

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Richard E said:

 

But it is known as the Joint line on official noticeboards irrespective of any history getting in the way!

 

The Joint Line originally, and correct me if I'm wrong, came off and ran along the line of the A47 from Rhubarb Bridge towards Eye as far as I understand, the road using the old trackbed for some distance.

It came off the Midland to the left and then crossed the Midland & GN lines and headed off towards Lynn. It joined the other arm of th M&GN that started at Little Bytham at March.

 

If you look at side by side maps it looks like the road was built slightly North of the trackbed apart from the short stretch (about half a mile) of the road E of the ECML bridge:

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=14&lat=52.60010&lon=-0.24828&layers=168&right=BingHyb

[62613]

The M &GN never went to March. The closest it got was Murrow, where it crossed the joint. The GN & GE joint was really only the link between March and Spalding, wasn't it; although the line from March to St. Ives was vested in the joint committee as well, IIRC

 

Edited July 21, 2020 by 62613

[melmerby]

11 minutes ago, 62613 said:

The M &GN never went to March. The closest it got was Murrow, where it crossed the joint. The GN & GE joint was really only the link between March and Spalding, wasn't it; although the line from March to St. Ives was vested in the joint committee as well, IIRC

 

True. Senior moment Thanks for pointing it out.

I was looking at The GN&GE line not the M&GN which splits at Sutton Bridge into the two arms.

Now corrected

 

The GN&GE went on to Lincoln, Gainsborough & Doncaster.

Edited July 21, 2020 by melmerby

[Donington Road]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

An interesting fact is that Werrington Junction was originally where the GN from Spalding joined the Midland's Peterborough to Stamford line.

The GN main North-South line was a relative latecomer to the scene and hadn't yet been built.

 

The original Great Northern line from London to York was built through Peterborough - Spalding - Boston - Lincoln - Gainsborough - Doncaster

Boston was the main locomotive works of the line.

Werrington Junction did not exist and there was never a connection to the Midland Railway (Stamford Lines).  The Great Northern ran parallel to the Midland Railway from Peterborough (North) as far as what is Werrington Junction today.  Werrington Junction only came into being when The Great Northern built the 'Towns' line from Werrington through Grantham - Newark - Retford to Doncaster.

 

There is more information here about the GN & GE Joint Line.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Northern_and_Great_Eastern_Joint_Railway

[Richard E]

 

 

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Donington Road said:

 

The original Great Northern line from London to York was built through Peterborough - Spalding - Boston - Lincoln - Gainsborough - Doncaster

Boston was the main locomotive works of the line.

Werrington Junction did not exist and there was never a connection to the Midland Railway (Stamford Lines).  The Great Northern ran parallel to the Midland Railway from Peterborough (North) as far as what is Werrington Junction today.  Werrington Junction only came into being when The Great Northern built the 'Towns' line from Werrington through Grantham - Newark - Retford to Doncaster.

 

There is more information here about the GN & GE Joint Line.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Northern_and_Great_Eastern_Joint_Railway

That's not what it shows on my Railway Atlas. (supposedly compiled from original sources.)

 

The Midland arrived in Peterborough in 1846, The GN joined the Midland at Werrington Jn in 1848, the GN main line was opened in 1850 at which time the junction with the Midland ceased to exist.

It shows Werrington Jn with the Midland existing from 1848 to 1850.

 

The GN Werrington Junction opened in 1852

 

 

 

Edited July 21, 2020 by melmerby

[PenrithBeacon]

39 minutes ago, melmerby said:

That's not what it shows on my Railway Atlas. (supposedly compiled from original sources.)

 

The Midland arrived in Peterborough in 1846, The GN joined the Midland at Werrington Jn in 1848, the GN main line was opened in 1850 at which time the junction with the Midland ceased to exist.

It shows Werrington Jn with the Midland existing from 1848 to 1850.

 

The GN Werrington Junction opened in 1852

 

 

 

Does your railway atlas give it's sources?

When the Midland and the GNR came to an agreement about the GNR line out of Peterborough that agreement specified that the GNR was not to build any stations from Peterborough to Helpston. It might have been true that there might have been a junction between the MR & GNR at Werrington, but why I can't imagine why when there were plenty of junctions in the Peterborough area and the MR line to Peterborough was very much a secondary route with the MR having its own line to Lincoln.

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Does your railway atlas give it's sources?

When the Midland and the GNR came to an agreement about the GNR line out of Peterborough that agreement specified that the GNR was not to build any stations from Peterborough to Helpston. It might have been true that there might have been a junction between the MR & GNR at Werrington, but why I can't imagine why when there were plenty of junctions in the Peterborough area and the MR line to Peterborough was very much a secondary route with the MR having its own line to Lincoln.

These are the early days of railways and what were later considerd primary and secondary routes had not been developed. The MR Line to Peterborough was built at the same time as it's line to Lincoln

 

Now look at the History of Peterborough Railway Stations

The Eastern Counties Railway (later GE) station (Peterborough East) was opened in 1845/6 for their trains and the London and Birmingham Railway (later LNW) trains, the Midland arrived with it's Syston & Peterborough Line and used the GE ststion from shortly after also in 1846.

The GN from Spalding reached Peterborough in 1848 and used the MR route to get to Peterborough East, only in 1849 did the GN decide to build their own station which opened in August 1850.

The fact is the the GN did not have a station for two years and had to use the MR tracks to get to the ECR station.

 

EDIT

Found this on Wiki:

In 1850, the Great Northern Railway (GNR) opened its loop line from Peterborough to Bawtry which generated yet more traffic for Peterborough. The GNR was in the midst of constructing its main line from London to York via Peterborough which opened in stages between October 1848 and August 1852; from 1848 to 1850, it ran services to Peterborough East. However, the GNR was desperately short of capital and approached the ECR in autumn 1849 with an offer to purchase the station to which it would run services using a six-mile stretch of the Midland Railway's Syston Branch to the north of Peterborough. Although the ECR declined the offer, it was willing to afford the GNR accommodation at the station. This was not taken up by the GNR's directors who, by December 1849, had decided to construct their own station in the city.

In August 1850, the GNR opened its Peterborough North station. The railway company had nevertheless obtained parliamentary powers to build two short curves to connect its line at Fletton with the ECR line. However, these connecting lines were never constructed. With the opening of the GNR station in August 1850, GNR trains ceased to use the ECR station.

 

From that it suggests the GN were using the 6 miles from Peterborough to Werrington courtesy of the MR, so must have had a Junction at Werrington.

 

 

 

Edited July 21, 2020 by melmerby

[PenrithBeacon]

Wiki as a source is suspect as is the atlas you have. I would like to see the agreement between the MR & GNR about the GN running over the MR as far as Werrington.

 

My recollection is that the GN used the MR to bring in materials for the construction of its line but whether there was a permanent connection at Werrington seems to me to be in doubt.  For what purpose? I think the connection would be at Peterborough. The MR wouldn't have a need for such a connection surely and the GN didn't AFAIK didn't run services over the Midland line.

Werrington has, I think, always been an internal GN junction.

[corneliuslundie]

Fascinating.

None of which really throws any light on the current name of the junction. Or is it that it was the junction for a route by which one could reach the joint line?

Jonathan

 

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Wiki as a source is suspect as is the atlas you have. I would like to see the agreement between the MR & GNR about the GN running over the MR as far as Werrington.

 

My recollection is that the GN used the MR to bring in materials for the construction of its line but whether there was a permanent connection at Werrington seems to me to be in doubt.  For what purpose? I think the connection would be at Peterborough. The MR wouldn't have a need for such a connection surely and the GN didn't AFAIK didn't run services over the Midland line.

Werrington has, I think, always been an internal GN junction.

 

I'd like you to explain how the GN got from Werrington to Peterborough East between 1848 and 1850. They didn't have a line.

 

My Atlas is Col. Cobb's 1" to the Mile Atlas that has been praised by railway scholars as the most accurate, definitive Atlas of Britain's railways.

Col. Cobb spent years of research, going back to original sources to make sure his Atlas was as accurate as is possible.

 

 

[chris p bacon]

Here are a couple of paragraphs from the History of the GN by John Wrottesley that should explain it.

 

Until such time as a GN station at Peterborough would be ready, it was decided to use the eastern Counties as a temporary terminus for the trains on the loop. Access to this would be over the Midland by a connection at Walton (or Werrington) Junction.  <snip> Final agreement with the Midland was arranged at Derby on 6th Sept 1848, the GN agreeing to pay 66% of the receipts as maximum toll. Cost of the use of the EC station was ultimately settled by arbitration. When the GN commenced running, it was one of the first cosmopolitan examples with trains of four different major companies using it.

 

Then later in 1852

 

The new line added 59 MIles and 13 chains to the system and commenced with a junction with the loop at Werrington. This junction must not be confused with that connecting the GN with that of the Midland at Walton or Werrington, which was now taken out.

 

In summary the GN initially shared with the Midland into Peterborough but the junction wasn't the junction we see now.

 

Hope this is of help and if anyone wants an application form to join the GN society drop me a line 

[melmerby]

4 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

 

In summary the GN initially shared with the Midland into Peterborough but the junction wasn't the junction we see now.

 

Hope this is of help and if anyone wants an application form to join the GN society drop me a line 

Based on the original alignments of the two lines it would necessarily be slightly further west and also slightly further south.

[ess1uk]

On 17/07/2020 at 12:30, chris p bacon said:

Thanks Mick, very informative.

I did wonder with all the really poor clay/mixed waste that they would deposit it in the old Fletton pits but that is quite a substantial amount of road traffic and the cost would be excessive.  A shame it couldn't be moved by rail but this project is to increase capacity and I couldn't see how it could be loaded and moved without creating conflicts with the timetabled services.

The old pits are now landscaped and housing 

[Donington Road]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

Based on the original alignments of the two lines it would necessarily be slightly further west and also slightly further south.

 

I stand corrected Keith.

After doing more research in many local books I have, I found the same information as Dave has pointed out.

There indeed was a temporary junction with the Midland Railway just north of Walton Station that lasted around two years.  Probably around or just south of where Cock Lane is today.  Walton Station was just to the south of Marholm Road

Initially it was thought that the GNR had a junction with the MR just north of Crescent Station after the Thorpe Road crossing allowing the GNR access to the GER station (latter Peterborough East).

Werrington Junction as it is today was formed when the GNR built the main Line to Grantham and beyond leaving the 'loop line' to Boston as a secondary route.

I cannot find any information if the junction with the Midland Railway was known as Werrington Junction or the more likely Walton Junction, as at that time around 1848/50 Walton and Werrington were entirely seperate villages, Werrington being much further away from the Midland Railway.

Edited July 21, 2020 by Donington Road

[melmerby]

25 minutes ago, Donington Road said:

 

I stand corrected Keith.

 

I would have been really miffed if Col Cobb's Atlas was proven wrong.

It was the most expensive book I ever bought by a long way (£150) and I rely on it to be the reference for where railway alignments are/were.

It also includes such information as original gauge (not all non Brunel gauge were 4' 8½" to start). Original company and each successive ownership, dates of alignments, closing dates, stations etc.

It's a mighty tome in two large volumes.

 

 

[chris p bacon]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

I would have been really miffed if Col Cobb's Atlas was proven wrong.

It was the most expensive book I ever bought by a long way (£150) and I rely on it to be the reference for where railway alignments are/were.

I'd not heard of it but I'll keep a look out as pre-grouping has the most interest to me.

 

Although not a small sum of money to pay, I've found that books that cost me a lot have proved the most useful over time.

[Donington Road]

The new footpath being installed at Hurn Road with the rubberised surface.

It is due to open in two weeks time.

 

 

The stepped podium for the presentation of medals in the Morgan Sindall lake diving competition

 

Galvanised rail fencing being installed on top of the retaining wall.

 

 

 

That podium again.

 

There's one each side of the bridge.

It's actually a step for getting on and off your horse so you can walk the horse under the bridge.  Will that happen, I doubt it.

Whatever next, a trough to water the animal and perhaps a bin with brush and shovel to clean up after.

 

 

Formwork being delivered, probably for the casting of concrete onto the piles of Lincoln Road bridge.

 

 

[melmerby]

17 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

I'd not heard of it but I'll keep a look out as pre-grouping has the most interest to me.

 

Although not a small sum of money to pay, I've found that books that cost me a lot have proved the most useful over time.

It's now much sought after as the price of this "poor" copy shows:

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=30239224654&searchurl=an%3Dcobb%26sortby%3D20%26tn%3Drailways&cm_sp=snippet-_-srp1-_-title2

 

and these:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B019HDCI5A/ref=tmm_hrd_used_olp_0?ie=UTF8&condition=used

 

I bought mine new from Ian Allan online (Midland Counties Publishing)