Is 3D printing over hyped ?

[raymw]

Much more impressive - https://youtu.be/LDJuGtKmNrc (his hand printed tree up to more than $1000 on ebay.

[Robin2]

Who said it has to be used to produce loco bodies?

Slow down a little.

 

The only point I was trying to make is the one you have also made - there are jobs that it can be very useful for and others for which it is less appropriate.

 

And I'm sure I'm not the only one who is not sufficiently interested to take the trouble to learn how to make CAD drawings.

 

...R

[rue_d_etropal]

As someone who has done designs for locos, wagon, track, buildings accessories then I probably can compare different types of model.

Locos are probably a popular choice, because one of the longest running discussions over the years has been on requests for different r2r and kit locos. There are certainly locos I am tempted at, but I stayed clear of popular scales and gauges, because I knew that as soon as I designed something it would come out r2r. Also price wise, in particular OO , prices are a bit high for 3D printing, unless it is something no-one is ever likely to do r2r, and it is also complex to scratchbuild.

All design these days requires some level of CAD, unless you can draw it out on paper. I used to find CAD difficult, but all packages are different, and most have free trial offers. I recommend allocating quite a bit of time(30 days is normal time limit), get a trial package, preferably one with a tutorial package as well, and work your way through. Don't try to learn how to do everything, just enough to show it suits you. If you are going to try 3D printing, then make sure it has an option to export to STL or similar format. also worth making sure it is possible to resize designs easily, as I can guarantee someone will always ask you to produce your design in a different scale.

Most of my earlier designs are crude by my current standards, not so much in the actual look, but the way I designed them, I could go back and redo them, but why should I, when they still produce models OK.

And unless you are really interested in the actual 3D printing, don't bother getting a 3d printer, use one of the many online services. you can always move onto your own printer in the future, but spending more time on design is far more productive.

What is over-hyped is the ability to produce good quality 3D printed models at home on your kitchen table. For a start the technology is developing and changing very fast, so expensive machines become obsolete, and therefore it might be better to wait and some of the older more basic machines might be available at you local carboot sale! That is assuming the material to feed them are still available. 

For anyone thinking about 3D printing9well designing for it), look at alternatives, their costs etc. Different scales in railway modelling have different pricing structures, the more popular ones are relatively cheaper, but are getting more expensive. One reason I started looking at 3D printed  buildings was that price was very similar to r2p models, and prices are going up. It only costs my time to design new models, so no big cash investment, and eventually someone will want them. I also enjoy the challenge, and even the classic terraced house has a lot to think about and stretch me. For me the difficult thing is being tempted to try too much, so have to keep stopping and thinking. I also tend to jump from project to project, so one week it is buildings, the next is track, then locos. i is very easy to get lost, and sometimes only remember something I have either only started or do have available, when someone says something at an exhibition.

[Phil Parker]

It would be a serious advantage to Amazon because it would eliminate inventory and shipping.

 

I'm not talking about next week either. The technology is still fairly immature and it's not really practical for what I'm describing. Do you think it will not have advanced in the next ten years?

 

I'm certain that assuming nothing cataclysmic occurs, all technologies will advance in the next ten years, and have never said anything different. However your suggestion that something akin to a Star Trek replicator able to produce any fully working item from a tank of goo and some CAD is the sort of idea that gets the "overhyped" tag attached to 3D printing.

 

Running off to an imagined future is lovely, but a lot of people miss the "imagined" bit and assume that the technology is already there. Some of those people want to sell printers and then disapointed customers find themselves faced with the reality of the current state of technology. Some moan, some pretend not to see the problems as anyone who's been shown a loco body covered with half an inch of paint to smooth it will know.

 

I suspect most on this thread have a grasp of where the technology is and can see how to use it now for some jobs and where it needs augmenting or simply isn't ready for others.

 

As for the replicator, well apparently it manages food in the 23rd Century (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replicator_%28Star_Trek%29) and other stuff years later, so Amazon will need those warehouses for a long while yet.

[AndyID]

I'm certain that assuming nothing cataclysmic occurs, all technologies will advance in the next ten years, and have never said anything different. However your suggestion that something akin to a Star Trek replicator able to produce any fully working item from a tank of goo and some CAD is the sort of idea that gets the "overhyped" tag attached to 3D printing.

 

Running off to an imagined future is lovely, but a lot of people miss the "imagined" bit and assume that the technology is already there. Some of those people want to sell printers and then disapointed customers find themselves faced with the reality of the current state of technology. Some moan, some pretend not to see the problems as anyone who's been shown a loco body covered with half an inch of paint to smooth it will know.

 

I suspect most on this thread have a grasp of where the technology is and can see how to use it now for some jobs and where it needs augmenting or simply isn't ready for others.

 

As for the replicator, well apparently it manages food in the 23rd Century (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replicator_%28Star_Trek%29) and other stuff years later, so Amazon will need those warehouses for a long while yet.

 

You are probably right. I very much doubt if this internet thingy is going to catch on either. It's going to take hundreds of years to develop the technology to make it practical.

[rue_d_etropal]

The two sides of 3D printing are moving at different speeds. The software to design as well as scanning is moving head very fast. This is nothing new in IT, and held back some development 20-30 years ago. I know because I as there at the time. Computers are faster now, but the physics and chemistry has not changed. Plastic still needs to be heated up and then cooled down and a motor driven device has to direct it to the spot where it needs to be applied.

It is not uncommon to see 3D printers at exhibitions. Trouble is then people see a simple machine and think that is what created those very complex prototype models, but in fact the best use for these basic(but still not cheap) is to explain what 3D printing actually is. I have to do that without a real printer, and some get it first time, some still find it difficult to understand.

I can not see motor driven devices actually getting that much better, certainly not without a new generation of motors, so it is more likely(but still uncertain) that some form of chemical driven system will have to develop, assuming that is even possible.

Going back to scanning, then that is where the future is. It is already well advanced, and is probably something that will appeal to more people. In particular getting yourself scanned(talking to ModelU at weekend, and am very tempted to get myself scanned) , but even that does not seem to have taken off as fast as it should have done. I don't think it will be that long before 3d scanning booths appear like 2D photo booths, but only if the equipment price is right, which I think is holding it back at the moment.

Maybe the technology for both scanning and printing needs to set a mark, and say this is actually good enough for the moment. Then commercial business can catch up, rather than waiting for the next (possibly only small) advance. The more advanced development can still go on, but should be kept away from sales people until the whole 3D printing and scanning system is a standard piece of equipment, accepted like the many of the items we take for granted now.

[teetrix]

I can not see motor driven devices actually getting that much better, certainly not without a new generation of motors, so it is more likely(but still uncertain) that some form of chemical driven system will have to develop, assuming that is even possible.

 

Simon, don't forget those printers which use liquid, laser-cured resin. Moving a mirror controlling a laserbeam is much faster and more precise as moving an extruder head.

 

Michael

[m0rris]

My tuppence worth about 3D printing is that it has a lot of potential but, certainly for model railways, many people expect far too much from the technology.

 

I have personally placed 3D printing alongside etched brass kits, kitbashing and scratchbuilding. It provides you with the bare bones to build an excellent model but it still requires a lot of consumer input, we are a long long way away from push button modelling where you can place an order for your model, in your livery of choice and receive an immaculate bodyshell ready for motors, wheels etc. Ultimately, this step will require a significant change in how the market operates seeing as producers such as BigP, myself and Bob at N Train have finite resources to invest in 3D printing and certainly speaking for myself here, I simply cannot make that further step up.

 

As I have pursued my little range, I have found price, surface quality and rejections to be a continual problem - shapeways have rejected a fair few parts now that have previously successfully printed and FUD remains a nightmare to paint. Ultimately, we need to see a decent drop in price as well as an increase in usability before 3D printing starts to make any real headway. For my products, I only believe they will sell well once we are able to bring the overall cost nearer to the £100 mark for a 4 car EMU and that the models are ready to accept paint without a long battle against the release agent. Without these changes they will remain an interesting novelty.

 

In conclusion - 3D printing is a handy short cut and opens the door for modellers to make models of stock that would otherwise be completely unmodellable, but in its current form it is definitely a limited tool.

[rue_d_etropal]

I think , reading between the lines that many,if not most of those commenting model in 4mm/ft. This is a scale which is very well supported by r2r and kit suppliers so prices are very competitive, but are going up a lot. 2 car EMU from Bachmann, will be around the £200 . For other scales, 3D printing can be competitive. For smaller scales the prices drop a fair bit, and for bigger scales, people expect to pay more as there is not as much available from more traditional suppliers.

Of all the scales/gauges I have looked at, OO9 is possibly the one where price is about right, in fact it would be possible to produce r2r models at a reasonable price.

 

For say pre grouping coaches in OO then I think the price might just be OK, mainly because there is very little out there apart from kits.

 

I still think that 3D printing can be combined with other manufacturing methods, including laser cutting/engraving and silhouette cutting, but in effect to produce a kit. I would like to have the time to try that, but at the moment I am busy designing my modular low relief building system.

One big thing I do like is ability to design a model, and as long as I am still happy with the design, I don't have to do anything to keep it in production. (until Shapeways throw a wobbly)

[Quarryscapes]

I don't have to do anything to keep it in production. (until Shapeways throw a wobbly)

 

Or until they change the goal posts again! They recently tweaked the rules with Brass - you could print 2 identical items in the same file, but now you cannot unless they are specifically cuff links or other similar jewellery. This happened just after I designed and released a series of brass wheel centres, which now have to be sold singly at much higher cost - £18 for a wheel centre! 

[rue_d_etropal]

for metals, most of which are actually molded, just the mold being printed, I would look around for a decent metal smith. I would expect there are people out there , casting brass and would hope they have tapped into 3d cad design. If not then it is an opportunity for someone.

[brian777999]

For model railways, is there one preferred material for 3D printing ? We have to glue, cut, drill and paint the end product which some other 3D users do not have to do.

[AndyID]

For model railways, is there one preferred material for 3D printing ? We have to glue, cut, drill and paint the end product which some other 3D users do not have to do.

 

Hi Brian,

 

I doubt if there is one preferred material. It's going to depend a lot on what is being printed and the method used to print it.

 

The examples of track I posted above were printed on my printer in PLA.   PLA takes paint quite well, and it can be glued with cyanoacrylate although it does have a rather low melting point. It's hard enough to be sawed, filed and drilled, and it's even possible to print a perfectly flat surface in PLA on an inexpensive printer (others may disagree )

 

Cheers!

Andy

[brian777999]

A number of 3D printing companies in Australia use nylon. Is this too soft for model train use ?

[Rabs]

Nylon is usually used in Selective Laser Sintering (SLS) machines (although it can also be used in FDM machines).  Shapeways' 'Strong and Flexible' (aka: WSF) material is their brandname for SLS nylon.   Because it is a powder that is fused together you get a grainy surface finish.  Depending on the scale and how much finishing you are happy to do then this might or might not be ok.  Have a search for WSF in the forum here and you'll soon get an idea of what to expect from SLS nylon.

[Quarryscapes]

Make of this what you will - this is the contrast in quality you can get from Shapeways FUD. They reprinted this order for me FOC, there were 3 wagons in it. Of the original order none were of buildable quality, of the reprint 2 were perfect but some parts of the 3rd were a bit sub par (but nowhere near as bad as the original and should be usable following some cleaning up)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[M Graff]

A tool is a tool....

And as such, it should be used for what it does best.

A 3D printer for home use isn't really up to replicating smooth metal surfaces, but it can do a good foundation that can be sanded and primed before adding surface details.

I would however prefer a Stepcraft CNC cutter with a laser head before I get a 3D printer.

[AndyID]

A 3D printer for home use isn't really up to replicating smooth metal surfaces,

 

A lot of people seem to think that, but I'm not so sure that's true.

 

 

The dome's diameter is 9 mm.

[billbedford]

Would anyone accept a Hornby/Bachmann model with a surface finish like this?

[Dunsignalling]

Would anyone accept a Hornby/Bachmann model with a surface finish like this?

No, but for a d-I-y user who is willing to hand-finish it with a bit of fine wet-and-dry, more than adequate, I'd say. As a commercial part for the kit/scratch builder, it should need no more work than a lot of castings.

 

3D printing is the hot topic at the moment but I think a lot of people are getting way ahead of themselves over it. As things currently stand, it is primarily just a different way of doing what can already be achieved by established means. So, for the home user, it's more a hobby in itself rather than a must-have tool that will move railway modelling into a new age.

 

At some time In the (probably not too remote) future, it may become exactly that. However, in the here-and-now, it is just beginning to cross-over into the non-commercial sphere. The gear that gives quality to approach what can be achieved by our existing methods is too pricey for most of us and requires a fair degree of dedication (learning CAD etc.)

 

Like much other new technology, most early adopters will be those who are as much, or more, interested in the process than the end product.

 

John

[raymw]

On my screen, the image of AndyID's dome is about 700% larger than in reality. The finish looks good enough to me, far better than some white-metal castings I've had in the past.

[AndyID]

I deliberately left the finish on that dome exactly as it came of my printer and enlarged it so everyone could see what it was really like. It's actually impossible to see any defects without magnification. As Ray says, white-metal castings are frequently much poorer.

 

This is a printer for home use, and it's unlikely Hornby or Bachmann would ever use one like it to produce commercial parts, but for home use, it's perfectly fine. Also, it didn't cost much more than a new 00 locomotive from Hornby or Bachmann, so it must be well within budget for lots of modellers. The printing process can be quite slow, but it took less time to print that dome than the time to create the CAD model, and it's unlikely I'll ever need more than one. It was still a lot faster than any other method I could have used to produce it, and I have a lathe and a milling machine.

 

When people are passing judgment on 3D printing, it would be nice if they would tell us whether their observations are based on personal experience or if they are just repeating anecdotes.

[eldavo]

Completely overhyped. Can't produce anything on the cheaper printers at home!

 

 

OO gauge C14 produced on a Prusa i3 using cheap PLA. CAD model created with free software.

 

Cheers

Dave

[AndyH]

I have used a variety of forms and types of additive manufacturing RP machines over the years, from low end to high-end, and as the majority of posts state there are still teething issues with the materials and software and hardware processing.

 

It is still a 'juvenile' technology, and increasingly becoming accessible before it has had time to fully mature.

Remember the rep-rap? Not so long ago, but truly a pioneer, however the delight was in the potential not really the output.

 

At the high-end you see some really interesting developments (look at magazines such as Develop3D) where the entire process (scan/model, process, print) is really robust, and I won't even go into metals (look at companies such as Renishaw). These will filter down relatively rapidly (power consumption and extraction requirements aside for some equipment). Have a look at companies that exhibit at the TCT show at the NEC.

 

The home market has evolvde rapidly and software is becoming more accessible, such as AutoDesk's great cloud based Fusion360 available on a monthly licence. The issue of material stability, support material and processing will be ironed out in the next year given the changes we have seen over the past two and new machines such as AutoDesk's ember or Carbon3d's Carbon.

 

In a model context, I have a range of digital models I can now reproduce at any scale, and use as high quality affordable patterns to investment cast. These range from a spark arresting chimney in two parts so I can show it as a stovepipe chimney, to architectural details such cast iron brackets. Yes, I could have made patterns manually, but the digital workflow gives me so much more control.

Andy

[Jeroen1975]

Hype? I don't know, but  it give some extra opportunities forr the home builder. You can use the design for youre own but if you like others can use it too, it helps to make youre hobby payable.

 

 

My latest design

http://shpws.me/M9yz

 

Stuf i created.

 

https://www.shapeways.com/designer/gelderschetrams/creations

 

 

 

Thanks Jeroen