Is 3D printing over hyped ?

[Jeroen1975]

Nylon is usually used in Selective Laser Sintering (SLS) machines (although it can also be used in FDM machines).  Shapeways' 'Strong and Flexible' (aka: WSF) material is their brandname for SLS nylon.   Because it is a powder that is fused together you get a grainy surface finish.  Depending on the scale and how much finishing you are happy to do then this might or might not be ok.  Have a search for WSF in the forum here and you'll soon get an idea of what to expect from SLS nylon.

WSF is not that bad in 7mm scale.

 

The body is printed in WSF. The buffer,railing and bogie is printed in FUD

 

 

 

The whole train is printed in WSF, and printed at Shapeways!

 

Thanks.

[Jeroen1975]

A lot of people seem to think that, but I'm not so sure that's true.

 

DSCN2757.JPG

 

The dome's diameter is 9 mm.

 

 

Would anyone accept a Hornby/Bachmann model with a surface finish like this?

For my previous model i used Frosted Extreme Detail, and that is super smooth!

 

Look at the buffer, i just ad paint, no sanding or filling!!

 

 

some parts of the railing are 0.3X1.2mm, and tje edges are still square!

 

Bogies are printed in Frosted Ultra Detail with scalelink wheels, the body is printed in WSF polished, and the railing is printed in Frosted Extreme Detail.

 

This quality is not availeble with cheap printer yet.

 

Have fun with printing.

[raymw]

interesting report https://pressroom.ups.com/mobile0c9a66/assets/pdf/pressroom/infographic/UPS_3D_Printing_executive%20summary.pdf (probably easier to read cf the Gartner ones I referred to earlier, and is a bit more 'upbeat', if you believe it.

[jjb1970]

I think this should be considered in terms of the now and of the future.

 

In terms of the now I do think 3D printing has been over hyped by some, as has been pointed out by others it is not a Star Trek style device that just makes finished articles appear out of the ether. Learning to use the software and then developing the designs takes time and skill and is not just a case of scanning a photograph and then hey presto, you print a model.

 

However in terms of potential I do not think it has been over hyped and consider that as the technology improves it will revolutionise many things. The technologies are already much more capable than some appreciate, I was involved in some product verification and approval work for high precision components printed for use in large diesel engines which were suitable for using as replacements for traditionally manufactured components in very highly stressed applications. I think the future potential for modellers is immense, and in the not too distant future I believe 3D printed models will be just a normal part of modelling, although I think most of these models will be produced by professional suppliers.

[rue_d_etropal]

Jeroen1975, is that one of my Corpet locos? Looks nice. Good to see French themed models here.

 

I have said it before, but it is what some think that is the problem. The new Fourdees narrow gauge locos are reviewed in RM this month. Now they are very nice, and in effect handbuilt using 3D printed body, but price is not low., reflecting the amount of time still needed to build them.  Although they don't interest me as I don't really want to build anotherOO9 layout, I think they are doing a lot of good for 3d printing.

When some grumble at prices I say look at prices of r2r now, including Fourdees. As pointed out in the review, as anyone knows who has ever taken a photo of their own models, photos always highlight the inperfections. Those small interfections don't bother me at all, but I think some are expecting too much.and then still grumble about the price. One reason why I still rate WSF as best for most models, is that with a bit of work they can be cleaned up. Anything too fine to be printed should be produced in something else.

One comment I hear, is that some expect prices for 3D printing to come down. Not sure they will, but I can guarantee prices for more traditionally produced models will go up, and that will make 3D printing seem to get cheaper.

[teetrix]

...is that one of my Corpet locos?

 

Yes it is, Simon. The Layout is "Saint Paul" built by Michael Kohler from Switzerland. Here's the link to his blog:

http://st-paul-0e.blogspot.de/

 

...and especially to the rolling stock:

http://st-paul-0e.blogspot.de/p/gebaude.html

 

Michael

[AndyID]

HP just announced a new range of printers. They claim high speed and resolution but I have not seen a lot of detailed information yet.

[rue_d_etropal]

Shapeways have one of these new printers, see my post on Shapeways machine thread . Sounds like they will be working very closely together.

[raymw]

hp jetfusion printers - $130,000 and up - brochures here -  http://magicbulletmedia.com/MNR/HPJetFusion3DPrinting/documents/4AA6-4894ENA-P.pdf and more techi stuff here http://magicbulletmedia.com/MNR/HPJetFusion3DPrinting/documents/HPJetFusion3DPrintingSolutionDatasheet.PDF They partnered with Nike, BMW and seven other companies to understand the difficulties for production 3d printing. It can print roughly 2,500 40mm plastic gears in about ten hours. they will start shipping at end of year

[rue_d_etropal]

Maybe, there is a glimmer of hope for having '3D printing on the every High Street' , but much depends on costs.

[billbedford]

When they can print electric motors.... and wheels.

 

The problem with all such fantasies is that models in general depend on a lot of complex assembly that high street retail outlets will not want to touch with a bargepole.

[Horsetan]

....The problem with all such fantasies....

 

...ironic given that railway modelling is, at its heart, a fantasy.

[SpoorObjecten]

In the past two or three years, 3D printing has drawn a lot of public excitement and attention. Do you think the technology has caught up to the hype?

 

Typically, when people hear about a new technology that they don’t fully understand, they start to think the technology is already capable of doing anything and everything. Unfortunately, while the technology has significant potential, it’s by no means perfect. We’ve seen the public lose interest with the realization that 3D printing is by no means in its final generation. But the innovation curve, which was almost flat, is now starting to lift and lift.

From a recent interview with Peter Weijmarshausen (CEO Shapeways) in Forbes

http://www.forbes.com/sites/joshwolfe/2016/05/19/how-3d-printing-is-transforming-manufacturing-an-interview-with-shapeways-ceo-peter-weijmarshausen/#71444bb26305

[AndyID]

...ironic given that railway modelling is, at its heart, a fantasy.

 

What's even more ironic is that history is full of examples where the experts in the field have said "Well, that's never going to happen."

 

One of the best was when the guy in charge of the US patent office said that there really wasn't anything else to invent

[billbedford]

Which is another fantasy...

[AndyID]

Which is another fantasy...

 

I suppose I'll have to dig up a few more then

[AndyID]

I suppose I'll have to dig up a few more then

 

Ah yes. There was the time C.J. Freezer told me in a reply to a letter I sent him that 00 live steam was never going to happen. Unfortunately, I've no idea what happened to his letter (it was a very long time ago.)

[Knuckles]

Oh yeah totally hyped, useless and just a fad.

 

Well, honestly my opinion is in the middle but leaning towards not hyped probably 75%.

 

Many expect ultra smooth surfaces at cheap prices that match RTR injection moulded finishes that require no effort on the modeller, I did too until I had a word with myself and drank some coffee. For all the technologies faults there are plus points...like anything.

 

That is how it in my opinion is hyped. Give it time and we may get there, smooth surfaces are done in 3DP but you pay more or have go give it some elbow grease with the wet n dry and priming.

 

I too think 3DP is expensive, especially for 4mm modelling but at the same time it is giving us MANY opportunities to model things not commercially available and so for that reason it is good and in time will improve.

 

You may say "You could always scratch build or make a model in etched brass" and that is true, yet some for various reasons don't want to do that or are scared to or don't have time, skill or 'insert reason here.' I like scratch building, kit bashing and etched kits for the record but 3DP is very very convenient at times.

 

3DP can make a loco body for example that apart from some preparation is 85-90% complete. That appeals to some people, and that I know for a fact.

 

If you haven't already please have a look at this initial page. These photographs are the initial WSF prototypes...

 

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_146567758497911&key=bbb516d91daee20498798694a42dd559&libId=ipbmk51y010004m6000MA87gwlj18&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fsodor.proboards.com%2Fthread%2F4163%2Fknuckless-modelling-desk%3Fpage%3D67%26scrollTo%3D310783&v=1&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.shapeways.com%2Fshops%2Fsparkshotcustomcreationsscc&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fsodor.proboards.com%2F&title=Knuckles%27s%20Modelling%20Desk%20%7C%20The%20New%20Sodor%20Island%20Forums%3A%20(SiF)&txt=

 

WSF is usually viewed by most people as the lower end material from Shapeways but with some effort you can have them looking like those....or better.

 

Print them in FUD or other materials whether on Shapeways or not and you can get them smoother still, usually at a price increase though.

 

Also once you have your CAD file you can edit it, make variations and reprint another quite easily.

 

 

 

So there is hype but also opportunity. For me it is a VGF (Very Good Thing)

 

 

 

The first loco in the link at the top left is my prototype for a Furness 21 Class also known as the K2, it has been improved upon since. I have always for many years wanted one and since I took up 3DP I now have one and you can too.

[rue_d_etropal]

I sometimes wonder is people are comparing apples and oranges. They look at what are relatively cheap ready to run or ready to plant models, or cheap kits and use that as a base price for models produced by 3D printing. Now those companies have spent a lot of money in development and have hopefully got their calculations right so they can make a profit, but if there is not the market then it is not worth while. Bring in 3D printing and virtually anything can be made, but at a cost, not dependent on quantity, and can be produced to demand. This looks much closer to professional scatchbuilt(or kit built) models and the cost reflects the time and effort taken, often to produce unique models(until someone else asks for one).

Now these handbuilt models do cost a lot more, but 3D printing can do something very similar. Maybe 3D printing is not over-hyped , just been compared against wrong alternative.

Having spent quite a bit of time on my modular buildings, and still a lot more to do, I am thinking that I could produce bespoke buildings, not dissimilar to professionally handbuilt ones and probably at a similar or lower price. I would probably have to paint and finish off buildings,which would add that individual touch.

Before I start on an idea, i do a quick mockup, and upload it to see what it costs. It gives me an idea, and in some cases , ideas are mothballed(prices might come down eventually).

For buildings WSF is the perfect material. I suppose for a shiny metal building, they might not be right, but for most it is ideal. Easy to glue(for multi-part models), very easy to paint, and very strong and lightweight. Just wish it was possible to 3D print properly transparent material(it might be possible at some time though). In fact if transparent was possible, it would be an even bigger boost for model coaches etc.

[Dunsignalling]

3D printing is effectively another way of making components for models - though admittedly including items that can be printed in one piece, or at least far fewer parts, than would be necessary for etched or cast metal equivalents.

 

"R-t-r" models based around 3D printing are hand finished in the same way as an assembled/painted kit would be - with prices reflecting the skilled "one-on-one" input required.

 

What 3D printing doesn't represent, and won't for the foreseeable future, is direct competition for mass-produced injection-moulded models from the likes of Hornby and Bachmann. The small quantities and the amount of hand-finishing required mean such models are aimed at those who want items/scales/gauges ignored by the "big boys" and are willing to pay the prices. They aren't for the train set market or the bargain hunters. The nearest non-3DP comparison I can think of is with the products of OO Works.

 

John

[Knuckles]

Some good points all round.  The high cost of 3DP to me and others is an off put, but as you both said 3DP has also given many people the opportunity to create things not usually available.

 

I've thought of making some WSF buildings.  Even though it is one of the cheapest materials and structurally good for buildings the prices would still I guess be a lot compared to other Ready to Plant buildings.

 

You mentioned maybe people are comparing 3DP to mainstream offerings too much and yet how are people not to?  It's a fair point but inevitable really.

 

Apart from the unique novelty aspect of certain designs if someone wants a building from Hornby lets say and has to pay £10, then they look at a similar building from Shapeways at £40...yea......this is an issue sadly.  I haven't uploaded a building to tell but upload tests are done often for a price check.

 

Anyway, apart from a few issues here and there 3DP is a good thing in my books.

[AndyID]

Does anyone else have their own printer? I'm on my second

[rue_d_etropal]

£10 for a r2p building, nowhere near. Maybe if you are lucky, on discounted stuff or second hand. It is actually much nearer to price of 3D printed items. Also weight or lack of it is a plus point for buildings, especially on portable layouts. It is necessary to think about design, one reason I started with low relief, as it does not waste as much space.

I have also noticed that prices for some laser cut kits is getting higher, making 3D printing better value, as more detail can be included.

 

Comparing to cost of handbuilt, kits or r2p does not take everything into account. Some are happy to have what is on the label, whereas others prefer something different . I have said it before but 3D printing is a good half way step, but can easily be taken the full distance easily. Unfortunately most people seem to fall into either one camp or the other.

[Knuckles]

I have also noticed that prices for some laser cut kits is getting higher

With the £10 it was just an example. I'm not so keen on some of the Resin RTP. some are good but I will not buy them online, I only buy them in person once I have physically checked the models myself as they are often wibbly wobbly warpedeed.

 

Laser cut kits always seem really expensive. However, This company some how manages to sell them ULTRA cheap. And I don't believe that means they lack quality. I'm likely to try some very soon as I'm yet to have the pleasure of building a wood kit.

 

http://www.inthegreenwoodlaser.co.uk/collections/oo-gauge-modelling

 

 

Does anyone else have their own printer? I'm on my second

I'm thinking of getting a 3DP. I saw I think some of your pics on this or another thread and the dome looked good. If I am mistaking you with another please forgive me. What model do you have?

 

Everyone keeps saying SLA resin is the way to go and that is probably right although I spoke to the owner of Modelu who has a B9 Creator (Another I have fancies) and he recons it isn't suited for loco bodies as it is a pig to set up. Unsure.

 

As a first I am seriously tempted with a Robox filament type machine. Can print down to 20 microns and some prints I have seen I am sure would be good enough. WSF and FUD still needs some preparation so why should other cheaper printers be different? It looks better than most IMO.

 

If I do get one day and it isn't up to it then no worries. I can enjoy it for myself.

 

Prototype prints in half a day instead of half a month!

[AndyID]

I'm thinking of getting a 3DP. I saw I think some of your pics on this or another thread and the dome looked good. If I am mistaking you with another please forgive me. What model do you have?

 

Everyone keeps saying SLA resin is the way to go and that is probably right although I spoke to the owner of Modelu who has a B9 Creator (Another I have fancies) and he recons it isn't suited for loco bodies as it is a pig to set up. Unsure.

 

As a first I am seriously tempted with a Robox filament type machine. Can print down to 20 microns and some prints I have seen I am sure would be good enough. WSF and FUD still needs some preparation so why should other cheaper printers be different? It looks better than most IMO.

 

If I do get one day and it isn't up to it then no worries. I can enjoy it for myself.

 

Prototype prints in half a day instead of half a month!

 

It's a Prusa i3. Currently $270 in the US.

 

I took a squint at the Robox and I think the underlying mechanism is pretty similar to my Prusa. The Robox does have some interesting features, but it may not be worth the huge difference in price. They make a big deal about the Z resolution, but the Z resolution on any of these printers extremely fine. The X/Y resolution is the big thing, and that's determined by the X/Y stepper motors' resolution and their drive system, and the nature of the extruded filament itself. As far as I can see the Robox is no different from the rest in that respect.

 

To get the best X/Y resolution on my printer I swapped the X and Y motors for ones that need twice as many steps per revolution. I also used smaller (fewer teeth) belt drive cogs on the motors.

 

I've only printed in PLA, but there are some interesting alternatives available now. One that I might experiment with is a nylon compound. It might be possible to print gear wheels with it.