Sharp Stewert GCR Tank loco

[MarcD]

All,

I'm working on a kit for a Sharp Stewart 0-6-0 side tank loco that was sold to the Furness, Cambrian and and the Manchester, Sheffield and Lincoln Rly (later GCR). I info on the ones sold to the Furness and the Cambrian but I have a grainy photo of the GCR loco. Does anyone have any info on them?

 

Marc  

[richard i]

Sorry no, but if it is in 4mm you have my interest piqued

Richard

[Poggy1165]

How far back are we going?

 

I am looking at Great Central volume 2 which covers 1864-1899.

 

Dow lists all the MS&L/GC locos and gives their makers. The most obvious SS products are the class 23 0-6-0 tender engines. 

 

Volume 3, the only SS engines mentioned are 11B (D9) 4-4-0s.

 

I've also checked vol 1 and that lists SS engines of an even earlier class, but again tender locos. 

 

So I'm a bit puzzled. Unless it's some obscure dock tank. The GC had a variety, conveniently bundled under 'Class 4'. Some of these were second hand from sundry contractors.

[Edwardian]

All,

I'm working on a kit for a Sharp Stewart 0-6-0 side tank loco that was sold to the Furness, Cambrian and and the Manchester, Sheffield and Lincoln Rly (later GCR). I info on the ones sold to the Furness and the Cambrian but I have a grainy photo of the GCR loco. Does anyone have any info on them?

 

Marc  

 

What year are we talking about?

[Poggy1165]

At an initial glance, the British Locomotive Catalogue doesn't help either. Does the loco number show in the photo? There is an index by number in BLC which would trace it - I hope.

[Edwardian]

I note you say the type was supplied to the Furness Railway.

 

According to RW Rush's Oakwood Press volume, 4 0-6-0Ts were supplied by Sharp Stewart to the FR, as FR Class G1.  The first pair, SS works no. 1842 & 3, dated from 1867.  The wheel diameter is given as 4'6" at 7' and 8'6" centres.

 

The second pair, SS works no. 2204 & 5, dated from 1872.  A line drawing of one is included in the volume.  It features a wrap-over sheet cab and long side-tanks, extending rearwards from the front of the smoke-box, but with a large cut-out between the leading and middle wheel-sets.

 

Is this the type you mean?

[MarcD]

That's the loco. The Photo of the GCR version has a standard with the same size tanks as the Furness loco but the Cambrian loco has the GCR cab but shorter tanks. the GCR number is 405B.

[Poggy1165]

I think the most likely candidate is the engine that ended up as 405C, which was ex Wrexham Mold and Connahs Quay. This was a Sharp Stewart 0-6-0 tank built in 1880 as WMCQ no 8. (I must admit, I never gave a thought to the WMCQ and its extraordinary working museum of strange locos.)

 

405B was the final number of WMCQ no 15 an 0-6-2t of 1880, previously 405 in the GC era.

 

With regards to number 8, as it was, it became 401 in 1905, 405 in 1910 and 405C in 1912 and was scrapped in September 1922. (Surprisingly late!)

 

There is a photo (not a brilliant one) in J. I. C. Boyd's The Wrexham Mold and Connah's Quay Railway opposite page 225. It is not the best photo ever taken, but shows it in WM&CQ livery. I have a feeling I have seen a GC era photo and will have a trawl for it, but sadly not today as I am out all day.

 

Apparently this loco was bought for use on the Buckley Railway, which was a twisting and steeply graded single line with many restrictions. An interesting modelling project for someone. If it is this engine I'd be interested in a kit as it would be quite fun - certainly a very unusual prototype and not likely to be on Dapol's list this century.

[Andy Hayter]

There is a picture in J E Kite's 1850 - 1925 Vintage Album - recommended on here by either Edwardian and/or Poggy1165.  My copy arrived last week (hard to find sellers who will ship overseas on Amazon's indy/SH network) and by chance I got to the relevant page last night.

[Edwardian]

There is a picture in J E Kite's 1850 - 1925 Vintage Album - recommended on here by either Edwardian and/or Poggy1165.  My copy arrived last week (hard to find sellers who will ship overseas on Amazon's indy/SH network) and by chance I got to the relevant page last night.

Ooooh, I'll go and look now!

[Edwardian]

Well, I now feel completely stupid, because I had a picture of the thing the whole time.

 

Caption reads:

 

0-6-0T No. 405C.  Apart from the subject being one of the old Wrexham Mold and Connah's Quay engines, this remarkable photograph was taken by W. H. Whitworth by moonlight!  The engine was drawn out of the shed at Wrexham about 6.30pm.  There was just enough light for the engine to be seen on the focusing screen.  By then, the moon had risen and an exposure of ten minutes was given.  Built in 1880, the engine was numbered 401 by the G.C. on absorbing the W.M.& C.Q. in 1905.  Later she became 405C, about 1912.  The cab and the M.S.L.-type chimney were added by the G.C.R.  Her W.M.& C.Q. number was 8.  Despite the derisive remarks of his companions about taking photos in the dark, this 1921 photograph was a complete success, and another rare view saved for posterity. 

 

 

[James Harrison]

What are the wheelbase dimensions and wheel size on that?  The slab-sided appearance makes me think it would be a good candidate for a first attempt at scratchbuilding using a silhouette cutter. 

[Edwardian]

What are the wheelbase dimensions and wheel size on that?  The slab-sided appearance makes me think it would be a good candidate for a first attempt at scratchbuilding using a silhouette cutter. 

 

See above ref the Furness Railway examples: "According to RW Rush's Oakwood Press volume ... The wheel diameter is given as 4'6" at 7' and 8'6" centres"

 

I am tempted by this.  A great little light railway/freelance/independent railway option. I have some Sharp Stewart 2-4-0Ts from the 1860s-80s slated for passenger engines on the Isle of Eldernell & Mereport Railway, it would be appropriate for the Directors to have plumped for these 0-6-0Ts from the same manufacturer for the goods work.

[MarcD]

We are looking to do a number of standard Sharp stewart loco kits initally in 7mm but if there is a demand we might be tempted to do them in 4mm.

 

the locos we are looking at are:

0-6-0T (Furness/Cambrian/WM&CQR)

2-4-0 (Furness/Cambrian/Pembroke and Tenby/Manchester and Milford)

2-4-0T/2-4-2T (Cambrian/Furness) rebuilt from 2-4-0 tender locos

0-6-0 (Furness/Cambrian/North Staffs/Pembroke and Tenby) Choice of tenders

0-4-0ST (Furness/Cambrian)

 

Marc

[Edwardian]

Well I'm interested (4mm), and ChrisN of this Parish is likely to be another 4mm (Cambrian) subscriber.

[MarcD]

See above ref the Furness Railway examples: "According to RW Rush's Oakwood Press volume ... The wheel diameter is given as 4'6" at 7' and 8'6" centres"

 

I am tempted by this.  A great little light railway/freelance/independent railway option. I have some Sharp Stewart 2-4-0Ts from the 1860s-80s slated for passenger engines on the Isle of Eldernell & Mereport Railway, it would be appropriate for the Directors to have plumped for these 0-6-0Ts from the same manufacturer for the goods work.

 

I wouldn't trust a Rush drawing once bitten twice shy. I always work off a works GA with photos to back them up now.

 

Marc

[Echo]

We are looking to do a number of standard Sharp stewart loco kits initally in 7mm but if there is a demand we might be tempted to do them in 4mm.

 

the locos we are looking at are:

0-6-0T (Furness/Cambrian/WM&CQR)

2-4-0 (Furness/Cambrian/Pembroke and Tenby/Manchester and Milford)

2-4-0T/2-4-2T (Cambrian/Furness) rebuilt from 2-4-0 tender locos

0-6-0 (Furness/Cambrian/North Staffs/Pembroke and Tenby) Choice of tenders

0-4-0ST (Furness/Cambrian)

 

Marc

Looks a very interesting list. The nice thing about these Sharp Stewart products, rather like many Beyer Peacock designs, is that they would have been available to any interested railway company. They could form the basis of a fleet for a fictitious railway at home or abroad.

 

I would be very interested in 4mm kits.

[CKPR]

 
Definitely interested in the 0-6-0T and 2-4-2T in 4mm especially as the latter is on my scratch building list.

[Quarryscapes]

Count me in for one (or more) of everything in 4mm scale. The Cambrian 0-6-0T has the following dimensions (from RCTS):

 

Wheels 4'6" on 7'0" + 7'9" Wheelbase

 

Boiler 10'4" x 4'1" inside. This boiler design was subsequently adopted for a lot of Cambrian locos. 

[Edwardian]

Count me in for one (or more) of everything in 4mm scale. The Cambrian 0-6-0T has the following dimensions (from RCTS):

 

Wheels 4'6" on 7'0" + 7'9" Wheelbase

 

Boiler 10'4" x 4'1" inside. This boiler design was subsequently adopted for a lot of Cambrian locos. 

 

Though he may be in error, I note Rush's text states of the Furness examples "The wheel diameter is given as 4'6" at 7' and 8'6" centres".  What about the WM&CQR examples? 

 

The Furness examples were delivered 1867-1873, I believe, and the WM&CR 1880.  What were the dates of the Cambrian locos?

[t-b-g]

 

Peter Denny had a model of this loco on Buckingham. It is not the best in terms of accuracy or detail but it is a scratchbuilt model of this rare loco. I think that it was built from photos and depicts the loco running as No 401. There are a few photos about and the loco did change quite a bit over the years, especially around the cab, which was originally mounted on 4 corner pillars.

 

 

[Poggy1165]

There is an excellent photo in Dow's Great Central volume 3, page 77. However, just to confuse things, this shows the engine, as 405C with a different chimney and a completely different cab, which looks almost colonial. If this were to be adopted, some serious backhead detailing would be needed, as I think it would make the interior of the cab very visible. Given that the Dow photo (which is unfortunately unattributed, but looks official), was likely taken when the engine was renumbered in 1912, it looks as if at some point between then and 1922 it had a minor rebuild. Possibly the old chimney was worn out and the ASLEF were complaining about the original cab, which certainly would not have kept cross winds out.

 

The original chimney is much squatter, and with different cab makes the engine look completely different.

 

What a fascinating topic!

[Edwardian]

Not that I would want to discourage a 4mm kit of this subject (far from it), but I cannot help thinking whether this could also be attempted as a RTR bodge, which depends, I realise, on how much dimensional and other inaccuracy a given modeller would be prepared to stomach.

 

The Bachmann pannier chassis (5700/8750), assuming it to be dimensionally accurate, would yield drivers with a greater diameter by 1 1/2' (0.5mm at scale), as these were 4'7 1/2".  What with wear and tyres and the very small scale discrepancy, in general I am pretty lax in my views on discrepancies up to 2", so this is unlikely to trouble me.

 

The Pannier wheelbase has the characteristic inequality of the Sharp Stewart, but the distances are out; the Pannier is 7'3" + 8'3", whereas the Sharp Stewart has been given variously as 7'0" + 7'9" (Cambrian quoted by Quarryscapes from RCTS) and 7' + 8'6" (Furness according to Rush).    If I took the Furness measurements, I would have the same wheelbase, but be 1mm out on each centre to centre distance.   

 

The type was built over at least 13 years.  I have no idea whether the differences in wheelbase were found in the prototype, or whether one of those quoted is in error.  If the former, I submit that gives useful licence if modelling a freelance version.

 

Of course, there may be a better donor chassis out there, but considering the Pannier, I am not sure that I would find the discrepancies impossible to live with. 

[webbcompound]

I'm about to scratchbuild the WMCQR version (WMCQR No8) in P4]. The cab in GCR service replaced the earlier original open sided version. All the boiler fittings were replaced by the GCR to a more normal size being previously short ones to fit under the low bridge on the Buckley branch at Connah's Quay. These are some more photos I havn't seen elsewhere. The loco behind is WMCQR No6, GCR 400B which was the only 0-8-0 tank to enter LNWR service. Another Sharp Stewart it started life as an 0-6-0 tender engine in 1846 and was withdrawn in 1923. I couldnt get the full sized pics to load, but if you want them please message me. they have good detail on.

 

 

[Poggy1165]

The WM&CQ had some amazing engines, some of which were rebuilt multiple times. I think this is the very first time anyone has proposed a kit for even one of them. That 0-8-0 tank is but one of several fascinating machines that the company owned.