Unknown Railway Coaches.

[k9-70]

Can anyone identify the manufacturer of these railway model's, believe to have been constructed in 1954.

 

Articulated driving trailer x2 connect to either side of the diesel motor unit, forming a self contained DMU.

The diesel motor unit is fitted with a Keyser 3 pole motor driving both axle's, set up to work on 3 rail track.

 

The Dining/buffet coach, (if that what it is) appears to have a driving cab at each end, but the driver's windows are painted out.

 

All coaches have rectangular buffer's.

 

K9-70

 

[Nearholmer]

Fascinating!

 

Nice quality, and the buffet/restaurant is very distinctive indeed.

 

The use of a centre Diesel engine unit was fairly common in Germany pre-WW2, and there were a few UK sets of this kind, at least some in Northern Ireland.

 

I have no real idea what they are, so please excuse me chipping-in, which I'm doing to make sure that any replies pop-up in my "participated" settings.

 

K

[Joseph_Pestell]

Not like anything that I have ever seen, prototype or model.

 

The green paint does not look original. Perhaps we would have a better idea if it was in its original colours.

 

But my best guess is that it is a scratchbuild rather than a manufactured product.

[PhilJ W]

It appears that the power unit is based on an old tender chassis, certainly home made.

[D51]

The power unit sideframes are either KMR or Essar LMS tender sideframe castings.  They were very similar.  The flat-topped buffers are Peco.   The window vents look like signal ladder stampings.

 

A very imaginative home made model.

[Nearholmer]

I did ponder the possibility that it might be an "engineering model" for display on a train-builders exhibition stand, but don't think so, because the truss-rod on the buffet/restaurant looks more artistic than sound-engineering: it should be straight, as it should be in tension.

 

K

[bertiedog]

Australian?     I have seen a mid engined unit or two over the years, as said usually German. The coaches do not look German in any way, so perhaps a down under design. Looks a home brew, as said, on a tender unit. Quite possibly unique.

 

Stephen

[Rivercider]

I have absolutely no idea, but the third vehicle made me think of something Bulleid might have designed,

 

cheers

[Nearholmer]

Certainly there were some Walker centre-engine railcars in Aus ( http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/108625-pre-br-first-generation-dmu-railcar-development-not-steam/ ) and I wondered about Aus too, because of the portholes.

 

K

 

Or, what about a steam, rather than diesel one? http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/61565-sentinel-railcars-any-experts-out-there/

Edited May 3, 2016 by Nearholmer

[bertiedog]

There appears to be a roof top lamp on the end of the coach, again points to Australian prototype;

Stephen

[k9-70]

I spoke with the owner of the articulated railcar coaches, and he informed me that before he bought it, it was up for auction. It didn't sell.

The auctioneer thought it might be an engineering model, possibly made for or by O.V.S Bulleid. My friend has documentation from the auctioneer's to support this.

The green paint is original.

The power unit frames appear to be from a steam locomotive tender. The steps are constructed in brass.

The set up could be 2-A-1-A-2. But not possible to add the centre wheel set due to the motor mounted inside the frame.

From what I can make out, the complete model is constructed in brass.

That is a horn above the driving cab, not a roof top lamp, as been suggested.

At the moment, I can't post a photo of the full train, as the power unit is with a friend being overhauled due to being a none runner.

 

Thanks everyone for the help so far.

 

K9-70

 

Pictures attached show the driving cab and motor bogie.

 

 

 

 

[bertiedog]

If it has a 1954 date and a documented OVS Bullied connection, then it must be a proposal for an Irish Railways unit, but were centre diesels ever used in Ireland?

 

Stephen

[Echo]

Engineering models are normally of much higher quality than this and to a relatively large scale. Far more likely a home made model by a highly imaginative modeller, in my opinion.

[russ p]

It's most likely to be UK of Ireland as it has a vacuum pipe. It's certainly not a model of anything actually built, it could possibly be a product of someone's imagination.

I remember once seeing a very well painted 31 in LNER colours!

[BernardTPM]

If it has a 1954 date and a documented OVS Bullied connection, then it must be a proposal for an Irish Railways unit, but were centre diesels ever used in Ireland?

Stephen

Yes, the Great Northern Railway (Ireland) built a few units like this in the 1930s.

The round door windows would suggest 1940s/50s period styling, but those large near semi-circular ones are certainly unusual.

[Nearholmer]

Well, centre-engined railcars of broadly this type were used in Ireland, at this date, and OVSB was certainly there, and, as someone said above, that restaurant does have the look about it.

 

The green could conceivably be CIE livery. And, I'm guessing a promo model created for Walkers of Wigan, to push the product they'd sold to Australia into Ireland, where they already had a good market with CIE, supplying railcars and locos for the West Clare, on the back of good experience on the Donegal.

 

But, it's all circumstantial, and it might simply be a clever auctioneer's way of making something more interesting - words like "suggested to be" and "believed connected with" aren't provenance, just smart catalogue-talk. Is there real evidence?

 

Whatever the case, I still think it a nice piece of work.

 

Kevin

Edited May 3, 2016 by Nearholmer

[k9-70]

If it has a 1954 date and a documented OVS Bullied connection, then it must be a proposal for an Irish Railways unit, but were centre diesels ever used in Ireland?

 

Stephen

Yes, the GNRI (Great Northern Railway of Ireland) had four. Railcar's D, E, F&G.

The C.I.E. (Coras Impoair Eireann) was operating railcar's in the 1950's, but nothing like the photo's posted.

I was also thinking O.V.S. Bulleid and C.I.E., after all, he came up with some strange Ideas when he was C.M.E. for C.I.E.

 

K9-70

 

Unidentified 2600 series railcar at Westland Row 25-09-1954

[Nearholmer]

In the context of the times, this sort of railcar wasn't really a strange idea, it was quite a mainstream one.

 

And, OVSB certainly had form when it came to vaguely bizarre buffet cars - think about the tavern cars of the SR!

 

Oh, and he was very open to French influences too, so a whiff of garlic in the designs would be fully in keeping.

 

K

[Echo]

The CIE was deeply entrenched in a railcar building programme anyway from 1948, with rather more conventional ideas in conjunction with AEC and Park Royal. "Diesel Dawn" by Colm Flanagan gives the details and is highly recommended.

 

Model prototypes were generally built and finished to a very high quality and to a much larger scale than model railway models, as I hinted earlier. Meticulous detail would be included. See the various manufacturers' models in the NRM, for example.

 

The models in this topic seem far more likely built by a modeller for model railway use, using adapted model railway parts.

[Nearholmer]

I used the term "promo model" because I agree that it isn't the sort of classic engineering model that we are all familiar with, but it might just be a little "eye catcher" to have whizzing round an oval of track on a trade stand.

 

Last year, I went to Railtex, the UK national trade exhibition, for the first time in many years, and there were many little eye-catchers on the stands of rolling-stock building and refurb companies, and signalling/software suppliers. RMwebbers could have come away with H0 scale models in all sorts of weird liveries!

 

There were also the larger-scale models and "sectioned bits of interesting things" that sometimes gravitate towards museums when they are no longer needed.

 

K

[Paul H Vigor]

On 03/05/2016 at 12:05, Nearholmer said:

I did ponder the possibility that it might be an "engineering model" for display on a train-builders exhibition stand, but don't think so, because the truss-rod on the buffet/restaurant looks more artistic than sound-engineering: it should be straight, as it should be in tension.

 

K

The whole design of the buffet car looks a bit art deco?

[PhilJ W]

Wasn't there an Irish DMU with a similar arangement? A six wheel power unit articulated to a coach either side.