Non DCC Locos running on DCC Layout

[Keithg]

Hello,

I am sure this question may have been asked before, perhaps when DCC came of age!!

I am aware that when you run a non dcc loco on a dcc layout you uses the four zero code to drive the loco. However

more importantly can this operation damage the motor when no decoder is involved??

 

Am thinking of a "burn out" to the expensive loco.

Look forward to your helpful answers.

Keith

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Simply, don't even try it. I tried it once when my Lenz kit was new, and it took out a Mashima 1830 in a free-running mechanism before the loco had turned a wheel. The system didn't miss a beat, the half dozen other locos running just carried on going. The loco affected put on a very convincing show of firelighting, with grey fumes drifting all around; a very small compensation for the destruction of a good motor.

[amdaley]

Don't do it Keith.

Not a good idea.

There is I believe one system where you could run a loco under 00 address but I don't know what it is ?

[Nobby (John)]

Don't do it unless you wan a realistic loco catching fire scene on your layout..........

[BoD]

If, as reported, locos catch fire when used on a DCC layout under address 0, an advertised feature, why do manufacturers include that option. Wouldn't such products be subject to a safety recall?

[melmoth]

Several years back I had a small roundy roundy layout powered by a basic Hornby Select DCC controller to help me get my head round DCC. I may have been lucky, but I managed to run a variety of non-DCC locomotives using the '0' address without any problems - including for example, a Bachmann Manor, Ivatt Tank, and 04 diesel shunter (all with split frame chassis). I only ever had one non-DCC locomotive on the layout at any time, and no more than two engines moving at once, but within these limits it worked ok for me.

 

Like I said, I might just have been lucky and obviously can't be held responsible if you try anything similar and your loco performs a passable imitation of the Papal Conclave in deep disagreement

[Oldddudders]

This is one of those questions where people's sincere responses vary widely. I use address 00 simply to test that a new DC loco runs forward and reverse, and have never had a problem. But the high-pitched whistle that is invariably emitted the moment a DC loco finds the DCC signal does indicate the motor is in some way distressed - they don't do that on DC.

 

But then, as Digitrax advises, I have always run my system on the N Gauge setting, despite only modelling in OO & HO. That may or may not be relevant.

 

My own view is to limit DC motor exposure to the absolute minimum on DCC, and never to think of running a train as such.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

If, as reported, locos catch fire when used on a DCC layout under address 0, an advertised feature, why do manufacturers include that option. Wouldn't such products be subject to a safety recall?

 It's a dated or 'legacy' feature, from the previous millenium, and most likely no longer offered at all on currently sold systems. This was intended to help people transition from DC to DCC, by retaining operability of any DC locos while taking up DCC. I am told that older motor designs with more heat sinking in their construction are better equipped to deal with the DCC waveform, likewise some form of current limiting may help prevent motor burn outs. Whatever, on the basis of a single motor burn I am not going to try again...

[peter220950]

With the ZTC system 00 is the DC single loco option, it works, but not particularly well. I have never seen loco's 'catching fire' but you only have to listen to one sitting on a DCC layout to realise something's not right. There's usually a harsh buzzing from the motor with DCC current which indicates all is not well. I have no evidence that damage will occur, but don't want to find out.  A better route on that particular controller is to switch it to being DC controller, though it doesn't give the flexibility of DCC.

 

The question is probably why do you want to? If there's a mix of DC and DCC in your stable it may be better to do as I did to our Club layout, and separate some of the trackwork to allow either DCC or DC operation, and you can then run both on separate 'zones'. I think it's also fair to say that most modern decoders seem to operate well on DC, so the better bet may be to run DCC loco's on DC track, though again unless you have section switching it may prove more restricting operationally.

 

Peter

[Phil S]

With LGB locos with substantial Buhler motors they support running an analogue loco on MTS (DCC) even though the track voltage is 22V.

However, even an analogue G Scale LGB loco tends to have on-board electronics and they have designed-in a degree of compatibility!

'Loco 0' CAN be enabled as a mode on LGB MTS central stations by pressing a button while resetting, and THEN calling up 'loco 0'.

This is similarly supported by Massoth (who made LGB's electronics, and market the Dimax /Navigator large scale 8-12A controllers)

BUT - you still do not leave an unfitted-loco stationary on the track any longer than necessary: this is helped by LGB including on/off switches in the cabs of their locos so that an unfitted loco CAN be safely left on the track when not being driven - wthout any concern of motor heating.

 

BUT IN SMALLER GAUGES - these switches and protective circuitry on NOT usually PRESENT:  The smaller motors used have less  mass to absorb the unwanted heat being generated by sitting the dc motor on an ac waveform !!

For this reason, then nmra guidance was NOT to use the analogue option above 16V  (assuming H0 or saller as usual)

ALSO as previously stated, since it is not beneficial to the motor, OR BULB LIGHTING for analogue to be used unfitted on a digital track the use of 'Analogue mode'

is NOT INCLUDED in many controllers.

 

I have never heard or seen an unfitted loco catch fire by being placed on dcc:  (I have had Zero-1 locos go up in smoke - but that is a different story from 30+ years ago and their 1st Triac-based decoder!!)  BUT I HAVE HAD BULB HOLDERS made of plastic (Bachmann Voyagers) MELT when used on DCC (even after conversion) because they were left on at full voltage to the bulbs - which is very rare with analogue, but common with dcc: {It is very noticeable with LGB bulbs 'burning out' ie failing due to life expiry).

 

Remember that 'analogue loco on dcc' - however the controller identifies it is STILL the FULL AC VOLTAGE of DCC AT ALL TIMES - and with nothing to block it (ie a decoder) it is applied directly to LIGHTING and the MOTOR .... hence the loud buzz as the motor vibrates back and forth about 10,000 times a second whilst getting nowhere. Much bulb-based lighting supplied in (continental origin) stock has been using 16V bulbs instead of 12V for many years.

 

ALSO Do not CONFUSE the ability of a ZTC511 controller to OPERATE in ANALOGUE DC (pulse width or variable voltage???) mode - with its 'Loco0' mode in DCC.   The method by which dcc can provide this 'analogue support mode' is by altering the timings of the dcc signals, so that the AVERAGE VOLTAGE is no longer Zero (which is the normal situation) ... and the motor then moves based on th average whilst heatng up with complete ac signal it ia receiving.

 

A 9V battery held to a separate piece of track or the loco wheels themselves, is a goos and sufficent check for most analogue or unknown dcc-fitted lcoos.

[alfsboy]

I use an MRC TECH 6 box to control either but its very limited but essential for me on small layout with both DC/DCC locos and the need to program and install decoders in US brass.

[Crosland]

If, as reported, locos catch fire when used on a DCC layout under address 0, an advertised feature, why do manufacturers include that option. Wouldn't such products be subject to a safety recall?

 

 

The DCC product is perfectly safe

 

Seriously, anything larger than N (maybe TT) and not fitted with a coreless motor should survive running. The Back EMF reduces the current flowing and makes damage less likely.

 

The real damage is done when locos are stationary, when there is no Back EMF and they are subject to the AC current resulting from full track voltage heating the armature.

 

If you MUST run an DC loco on DCC then park it in a siding that can be isolated when not running, and buy a decoder as soon as funds allow

 

Andrew

[Ron Solly]

Lenz allows one DC loco to be run on address 0 at any one time & one should not let is stop for too long  ( (IMO - no longer than a couple of seconds) as the motor will get hot;

 

NCE does not allow any DC loco to run.