Humbrol Matt Enamel for BR loco green, suggestions?

[Jamiel]

EDITED - to correct the make of paint I was using, sorry it wasn't Railmatch but Phoenix Precision.

I am seeking advice on a BR Loco Green in Enamel paint, preferably Humbrol. It does not have to be an exact match as the loco will be weathered, and I am happy to allow for sun bleaching, or soot darkening, with a light to mid weathering to be added over after initial paiting.

I have just given a loco I have been working on a light spray with Phoenix Precision P101 BR Loco Green (Dull) post 1954, shaken and stirred before use (Mr Bond would not approve!), slightly thinned with Phoenix Precision thinner. I did not see any information as to the finish on the pot (I may have missed it), but with the colour described as 'Dull' I wasn't expecting a gloss finish.



Not the greatest photo, but exposed and angled to show the gloss highlights/reflection.



I had a similar problem with a Phoenix Precision Matt BR Bauxite bought at the same time, about 5 years ago, which came out very gloss.

After some research on the web, I am tempted to try 88 Matt Deck Green described on http://airfixtributeforumas S.R. Stock Green (Post War) / B.R. (Passenger) Multi Unit Stock Green.

Maybe also mixing in some 30 Matt Dark Green, 101 Matt Mid Green, 149 Matt Dark Green, and black or white to match the tint and desaturate the colour if needed.

I trust Humbrol enamels, and know how they thin and work with my airbrush, so would be interested to hear if others have got a good (close enough for weathering) match using them.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Jamie



PS.Here are a couple links to the page I found on the Airfix Tribute forum which is very good for the paints listing and the image linked below.

http://airfixtributeforum.myfastforum.org/Humbrol_Enamel_Paint_Charts_2007_12__about41929.html

 

[Signaller69]

Humbrol 195 is pretty good, although its satin rather than flat matt. I've used it for touching up (my Hornby class 29 ironically) as per the photo in my header.

 

And sorry for stating the obvious but the paint you used is Pheonix Precision not Railmatch. Had similar issues with the old Precision paints in the past.

 

Hope your 29 turns out well!

 

Regards,

Martyn.

[Jamiel]

Thanks Martyn.

I will edit the post to correct the mistake, and will try the 195, Satin would be fine.

Jamie

[Signaller69]

Just a further comment, BR MU green is quite a bit lighter than loco green so wouldn't look right really. Humbrol 195 seems a good match for the modern Hornby BR Loco green shade they use on later versions of their class 29, I should also add I've not done a whole loco with it. Hope this helps.

 

Martyn.

[Scottish Modeller]

Just a further comment, BR MU green is quite a bit lighter than loco green so wouldn't look right really. Humbrol 195 seems a good match for the modern Hornby BR Loco green shade they use on later versions of their class 29, I should also add I've not done a whole loco with it. Hope this helps.

 

Martyn.

Hi all,

 

I'm with Martyn on the nearest match and have used Humbrol 195 over a variety of colour primers.

 

Thanks

[Jamiel]

Thanks for the replies

That is really helpful. I will grab a tin of 195 and work with that, then weather it down from there.

Many thanks.

Jamie

[JeremyC]

I almost exclusively use Phoenix Precision and have never had any problems with the dull ending up gloss [if anything it sometimes is a little too matt] .

 

I have an interesting booklet 'The Finishing Touch' that was published many years ago by the original [i think] owner of Precision Paints and he was very emphatic that the most common cause of incorrect finish or colour was inadequate mixing. He strongly made the point that stirring with a screw driver or similar or shaking was useless and a flat stick [coffee stirrer] or a bent wire type stirrer in a minidrill was necessary. 

 

Jeremy

[Scottish Modeller]

I almost exclusively use Phoenix Precision and have never had any problems with the dull ending up gloss [if anything it sometimes is a little too matt] .

 

I have an interesting booklet ['The Finishing Touch'] that was published many years ago by the original [i think] owner of Precision Paints and he was very emphatic that the most common cause of incorrect finish or colour was inadequate mixing. He strongly made the point that stirring with a screw driver or similar or shaking was useless and a flat stick [coffee stirrer] or a bent wire type stirrer in a minidrill was necessary. 

 

Jeremy

Hi Jeremy,

 

Yes - That was my first 'bible' on painting models. 

 

Not that I wasn't already - just the first time I had come across something that made sense.

 

I got mine when the model shop I was running did a deal with Mr Shepherd (sp?) to stock the full range.

 

As he took the trouble to bring it all to us personally - we were well impressed!

 

Ah - the heady days of times long gone.... 

[tractor_37260]

Hi Jeremy,

 

Yes - That was my first 'bible' on painting models. 

 

Not that I wasn't already - just the first time I had come across something that made sense.

 

I got mine when the model shop I was running did a deal with Mr Shepherd (sp?) to stock the full range.

 

As he took the trouble to bring it all to us personally - we were well impressed!

 

Ah - the heady days of times long gone.... 

 

Hi Phil

 

          Yep that book proved very helpful when I first started re-painting models ..............loads of good tips and info etc ...........and yes - that was indeed a few years back...................

 

As for the OP yes it's turned out a "Gloss" finish, but it's ideal for any transfers etc, and it could them be over-coated with a matt/satin varnish, rather that having to re-paint it again ? 

 

Ken

[sagaguy]

Humbrol paints are not as good as they used to be before they were taken over by Hornby.No.85 coal black used to be a really good satin finish,no brush marks.I did complain to Hornby but never got a reply.I use Railmatch paints these days through an air brush.

 

                      Ray.

[Jamiel]

Thanks for the replies.

 

I have used a stirrer in a Dremmel for Matt Phoenix Precision paints in the past, but the result was a ceased bit head after stirring some Matt varnish, so rather than damage my Dremmel again, I prefer to use Humbrol paints. Power stirring does work, but given the option, I prefer not to.

Perhaps Phoenix-Precision should sell a drill mounted stirrer and covers to fit over the pots while doing this, if that is needed for their paints.

Watching professional decorators, they always stir the paint with a drill before use, but then being professional, they probably have a dedicated drill for that, but it is good advice.

If I were making a freshly works painted model, I would want to use an accurate colour like Phoenix-Precision sell, but for an in traffic loco, sun bleached, sooty, and generally coated with track dirt the exact match is not so important for me,

I also find the coverage easier with Humbrol, small areas of brass do not always need priming, the roof fan on this model was just sprayed straight to the colour, two light coats.

For transfers I prefer to paint the whole loco matt, polish where the transfers will go, and then lightly matt varnish those areas. There won't be a lot of transfers on this, but if I were doing a modern DMU for instance with lots of decals, gloss would definitely be a good start.

I will grab a couple of tins of Humbrol 195 soon.

Jamie

[tractor_37260]

Thanks for the replies.

 

I have used a stirrer in a Dremmel for Matt Phoenix Precision paints in the past, but the result was a ceased bit head after stirring some Matt varnish, so rather than damage my Dremmel again, I prefer to use Humbrol paints. Power stirring does work, but given the option, I prefer not to.

 

Perhaps Phoenix-Precision should sell a drill mounted stirrer and covers to fit over the pots while doing this, if that is needed for their paints.

 

Watching professional decorators, they always stir the paint with a drill before use, but then being professional, they probably have a dedicated drill for that, but it is good advice.

 

If I were making a freshly works painted model, I would want to use an accurate colour like Phoenix-Precision sell, but for an in traffic loco, sun bleached, sooty, and generally coated with track dirt the exact match is not so important for me,

 

I also find the coverage easier with Humbrol, small areas of brass do not always need priming, the roof fan on this model was just sprayed straight to the colour, two light coats.

 

For transfers I prefer to paint the whole loco matt, polish where the transfers will go, and then lightly matt varnish those areas. There won't be a lot of transfers on this, but if I were doing a modern DMU for instance with lots of decals, gloss would definitely be a good start.

 

I will grab a couple of tins of Humbrol 195 soon.

 

Jamie

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Badger-121-Paint-Mixer-New-/381617111954?hash=item58da270392:g:V9EAAOxyaTxTTTi3

 

I've used one of these for ages, it works well, sometimes you have to break up the pigment that can settle in the bottom of the tin first with a brush handle etc.  To avoid a mess, don't start it until it's in the paint and stop it before you remove it.

Cheaper versions are available.

 

Precision used to supply a stirrer, an angled rod for use in a drill

[stevejjjexcov]

I always stir paint with a wide stirer and with matt finishes always mix for longer than with satin or gloss as it takes longer to mix the settled matting agent. Also be careful not to over thin matt paint with white spirit/turpentine it can leave a slight satin finish. Also the older the paint,,the longer stir is a good moto

[Dunsignalling]

If you are satisfied with the colour, just apply matt varnish over the top. Transfers stick better to gloss and you need to protect them anyway.

 

I like the aerosol one branded "The Army Painter".

 

Just remember not to fit the windows until afterwards.

 

 

John

[Jamiel]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Badger-121-Paint-Mixer-New-/381617111954?hash=item58da270392:g:V9EAAOxyaTxTTTi3

 

I've used one of these for ages, it works well, sometimes you have to break up the pigment that can settle in the bottom of the tin first with a brush handle etc.  To avoid a mess, don't start it until it's in the paint and stop it before you remove it.

Cheaper versions are available.

 

Precision used to supply a stirrer, an angled rod for use in a drill

Thanks for that. I have ordered one, and hopefully that will give life to old tins of paint and preserve my Dremmel.

 

Just off out to spray the Humbrol 195 on the body. Probably some matt varnish once the decals are done too, plus the few layers of weathering.

 

Glazing will happen later in the week once the body is dry, but before weathering. Glazing will be an interesting job on the Class 21 with hand cut front windows and etched frames that will need a little extending.

 

Thanks for all the advice.

 

Jamie

[Jamiel]

The Humbrol Silk 195 has coated the loco really well, and is almost matt (a plus for me), nice tone, not as rich (saturated) as the Rail Match Green.

I will post a photo soon, but I don't think artificial light will really bring out the colour properly, so will wait for daylight.

I am waiting for the mixer to arrive, so think I will give a very light coat of the Rail Match over the Humbrol, just to give it a little richness.

I will also try the stirrer on the Rail Match Bauxite I have and see if it brings out the matt in it.

I do think that the coverage from the Humbrol makes it a good primer at worst, and hopefully a good base for a little finishing touch.

Thanks for all the advice and suggestions.

Jamie

[Karhedron]

Another vote for gloss paint > transfers > matt varnish.

[Tim V]

I used to have a tin of Humbrol GW Green. It's no longer available, in the pogrom of Humbrol paints some years ago, it was removed from sale.

[Jamiel]

Well I have bought a Badger Paint Mixer (many thanks for the suggestion to tractor_37260) and have done a test paint on a Class 29 donor/spares body, and the paint is gloss.

I did have a look on www.phoenix-paints.co.uk to check I was not complaining about a gloss paint being gloss, so as not to appear to be a complete idiot, but there is no information about the finish, nor is there on the tins. The paint might be intended to be gloss, but I have no idea.

 

http://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/precision-paints/railway-colours/post-1948-colours/colours-for-british-railways-the-nationalised-railway/p100-b-r-pre-1954-locomotive-green-1.html

Phoenix Precision make excellent coloured paints, but it would seem can not be relied on regarding the finish that will be obtained. If the manufacturer has an attitude that any poor results of the use of their products are purely down to inadequacies of the consumer, then I find that a blasé attitude to both their customers and also their quality control. If they do not provide information as to the finish the paint will have then that is almost as bad as the paints not achieving the named finish.

Here is a photo of the test spray, only on the body panel aft of the cab.


As for the class 21 I am doing, I have used several light coats of Humbrol 195 (satin, but quite a matt satin), which gives a good covering, and a good finish, but lacks the saturation, or vibrancy of the Pheonix Paints BR Green, which I have then used as a very light coat to finish. It is still drying, so I will take a photo of that soon.

Thanks for all the replies.

Jamie
 

[tractor_37260]

Hi Jamie

I've used Phoenix paints for years with consistantly good results, I'm sure many have experienced the same results. Most but not all colours are available in either DULL or GLOSS finish apart from weathering shades these being MATT

 

I suspect your tin of BR Green is in fact Gloss finish as normally the Dull version is marked dull on the tin label he

 

Dull or Matt paints normally require more mixing/stirring also.

 

Regards

Ken

[Jamiel]

Hi.

 

I just thought that I would post a photo of my latest project, also painted with the same tin of Phoenix Paints BR Green Dull, but this time motor stirred with the Badger mixer recommended by Tractor_37260. The result is hugely different, so the answer would appear to be that Phoenix Paints need a mechanical stir before use, but once that is done give excellent results.

I would add that once they are stirred, they are more difficult to use with an airbrush, the suspension the stirrer creates is a bit gloopy compared Humbrol paints, and needs a lot more thinning. Also if left in the airbrush reservoir for a minute can start to settle and then block the nozzle.

The colour is perfect, so I am pleased for the advice given by everyone.

 

 

My conclusion would be, mechanical stir, thin a lot, and spray quickly.

Jamie