TPE new trains

[phil-b259]

3 hours ago, Mark Saunders said:

 

It works at Berwick upon Tweed with 91's and Mk iv sets where the locomotive goes beyond the signal to a stop board!

 

However that signal still has to be showing a proceed aspect regardless of what stop board may be provided. The days of being able to have the loco in advance of a red signal are long gone.

 

Junctions, busy station throats or and level crossings are all things that may prevent the signal from being cleared as the train arrives and as such a Berwick style solution may not be possible at some places on the TPE network

[jamie92208]

Having just received my copy of Modern Railways and also having seen a report on Look North this morning I wonder if TPE's problems are getting mixed up with Northern's.   In MR Trackwatch there are reports of many West Yorkshire Northern only stations having their platforms extended, usually to 117m. The Look North report talked about 6 car trains and concentrated on the west end bay platforms at Leeds.   I wonder if someone has put 2 and 2 together and made 5.   Northern does have a long standing constraint on the Aire Valley routes that most platforms can be extended to 6 car length apart from the main line through platforms at Shipley which have pointwork at both ends and can't be lengthened.

 

Jamie

[woodenhead]

17 hours ago, Mark Saunders said:

 

It looks to me that given the services they are running and stock they are acquiring, it is becoming an inter-city franchise rather than an outer suburban one!

The routes they run are like a micro Cross Country, Glasgow/Edinburgh to Manchester is quite some distance, used to warrant air conditioned coaches when Liverpool to Newcastle was still older Mk2bs.

 

I've long thought it should be upscaled in importance and now it is getting the trains to match.

 

Just need Cross Country with 802s - not sure there are enough 68s for Cross Country as well as everyone else, wonder how a 67 might do?

[Wheatley]

The Northern issues are specifically at Leeds where platform extension has started but is behind schedule. The plan was to replace 4 car 333s with 2x3 car 331s on some services. Leeds NW  will get new trains in 2019 but 4 car 331s for now. 

[31A]

1 hour ago, jamie92208 said:

Having just received my copy of Modern Railways and also having seen a report on Look North this morning I wonder if TPE's problems are getting mixed up with Northern's.   In MR Trackwatch there are reports of many West Yorkshire Northern only stations having their platforms extended, usually to 117m. The Look North report talked about 6 car trains and concentrated on the west end bay platforms at Leeds.   I wonder if someone has put 2 and 2 together and made 5.   Northern does have a long standing constraint on the Aire Valley routes that most platforms can be extended to 6 car length apart from the main line through platforms at Shipley which have pointwork at both ends and can't be lengthened.

 

Jamie

 

I read that in Modern Railways too and by my calculations the extended platforms seem to add up to 5 cars based on the longest current DMU cars used by Northern  (23 metres); they seemed to be on the Calder Valley and Trans Pennine via Huddersfield routes. I wondered whether they have aspirations to make up 5-car trains using the new DMUs which I think come in 2- and 2-car varieties?

[31A]

59 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

The routes they run are like a micro Cross Country, Glasgow/Edinburgh to Manchester is quite some distance, used to warrant air conditioned coaches when Liverpool to Newcastle was still older Mk2bs.

 

I've long thought it should be upscaled in importance and now it is getting the trains to match.

 

Just need Cross Country with 802s - not sure there are enough 68s for Cross Country as well as everyone else, wonder how a 67 might do?

 

Unfortunately for most of the 'core' part of the North Trans Pennine route at least, they also act as very busy commuter routes, with heavy flows into and out of both Leeds and Manchester and quite possibly also Liverpool as well but I'm less familiar with that end.  I seriously wonder whether they've done the right thing by going for vehicle designs with end doors instead of the 'third and two third positions' of the 185s.  I say this having often waited while incoming passengers seem to take forever to alight from a busy 158 before the boarding passengers can start to get on, which then also seems to take forever.

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

 

Just need Cross Country with 802s - not sure there are enough 68s for Cross Country as well as everyone else, wonder how a 67 might do?

 

Loco haulage is a big no-no on most routes due to the need to use short bay platforms at Reading or Platform share at Birmingham New Street which impose maximum 5 car unit or 4 coach + loco restriction.

 

Yes back in BR days longer loco hauled trains were run - but not as frequently as today Cross Country frequency and on a considerably less congested network too.

[Coryton]

5 hours ago, Reorte said:

I thought it was per class but looks like I'm wrong about that.

 

Anyway I like the look of the layouts, plenty of tables and the photo shows them lined up with the windows. I'm assuming that they simply haven't got around to fitting the tables when the photo was taken...?

 

Interesting one that.

 

GWR IETs have an "accessible" toilet in each class, one in each driving trailer.

 

But wheelchair spaces are only provided in the first class coach - free upgrade to standard class wheelchair using passengers.

[Coryton]

5 hours ago, Wheatley said:

 

Always Provincial / REgional Railways. The service was branded as Transpennine but only on timetables and publicity material until 1998 when Northern Spirit went ORCATS raiding between York and Newcastle, fitted the 158s with first class compartments and painted them purple with "transpennine" branding instead of the standard NS green/turquiose.  

 

 

 

My recollection is that when Transpennine became a separate franchise they made a point of describing themselves as an Intercity service...which amused me because when the railways were first privatised the former intercity companies couldn't drop the brand quickly enough - presumably it was too old-fashioned, though railways over the channel seem to have happily stuck with the term.

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, 31A said:

 

Unfortunately for most of the 'core' part of the North Trans Pennine route at least, they also act as very busy commuter routes, with heavy flows into and out of both Leeds and Manchester and quite possibly also Liverpool as well but I'm less familiar with that end.  I seriously wonder whether they've done the right thing by going for vehicle designs with end doors instead of the 'third and two third positions' of the 185s.  I say this having often waited while incoming passengers seem to take forever to alight from a busy 158 before the boarding passengers can start to get on, which then also seems to take forever.

That's certainly a potential problem. I hope it works OK because I really do find 1/3 2/3 doors pretty poor fare for inter-city services. I suppose it'll depend upon just how crowded they get.

 

Would Manchester - Scotland be a better route for them?

[black and decker boy]

44 minutes ago, Reorte said:

That's certainly a potential problem. I hope it works OK because I really do find 1/3 2/3 doors pretty poor fare for inter-city services. I suppose it'll depend upon just how crowded they get.

 

Would Manchester - Scotland be a better route for them?

Manchester - Scotland via WCML is getting class 397 EMU, Manchester to Scotland via ECML gets class 802 bi-modes.

 

cant really swap the 68&mk5s for the class 397s now that the wires will keep stopping over the hills / in the tunnels.

[TomJ]

I guess they are an Intercity operator. Waiting at Leeds this morning I note they run trains from Liverpool to Newcastle. That’s two big cities and a 3hr journey. So longer than many big journeys on ‘traditional’ intercity routes. If I was going from Newcastle to Liverpool I’d want the same environment to sit and work as Newcastle to London. These new trains look like they’re just the job for that. 

[Coryton]

1 minute ago, TomJ said:

I guess they are an Intercity operator. Waiting at Leeds this morning I note they run trains from Liverpool to Newcastle. That’s two big cities and a 3hr journey. So longer than many big journeys on ‘traditional’ intercity routes. If I was going from Newcastle to Liverpool I’d want the same environment to sit and work as Newcastle to London. These new trains look like they’re just the job for that. 

 

Before the 185s the route was run with 158's, which I think are eminently suitable for such a route.

Before that it was Mk 2's.

 

For the long distance traveller I think the 185's were quite a step down from both of these. But far more suitable for, say, the Leeds to Huddersfield commuter.

[Zomboid]

TPE looks to me like it's much the same as XC - a long distance inter city operator where a lot of the trains are used for shorter, commuter style journeys. Basically whatever they do will be wrong for one group or the other.

[Coryton]

3 hours ago, Zomboid said:

TPE looks to me like it's much the same as XC - a long distance inter city operator where a lot of the trains are used for shorter, commuter style journeys. Basically whatever they do will be wrong for one group or the other.

 

The same is true of GWR Intercity trains, and is presumably why the HSTs ended up with their rather unpleasant all-airline seating interiors (although with excellent leg-room)

[jim.snowdon]

31 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

The same is true of GWR Intercity trains, and is presumably why the HSTs ended up with their rather unpleasant all-airline seating interiors (although with excellent leg-room)

I thought it was simply to get the maximum number of seats into each carriage, with tables provided only because at some point the seating has to change direction (or several passengers get a boring view of the end bulkhead of the saloon.

 

Jim

[Coryton]

21 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

I thought it was simply to get the maximum number of seats into each carriage, with tables provided only because at some point the seating has to change direction (or several passengers get a boring view of the end bulkhead of the saloon.

 

Well indeed...but I think the seats were crammed in like that because of the need to act as commuter trains between London and Reading/Didcot. Maybe not.

[Flying Pig]

A TPE Class 68 passed Strensall light mid-morning, heading towards Scarborough.

[phil-b259]

18 hours ago, Coryton said:

 

Well indeed...but I think the seats were crammed in like that because of the need to act as commuter trains between London and Reading/Didcot.

 

This is very much the case - the massive cut in journey times the HST allowed produced a whole new generation of long distance commuters who could get nicer and cheaper houses in Oxfordshire and Wiltshire, yet still be able to commute into London every day.

 

Therefore over the years more stops have been inserted in previously fast London to Bristol express services and due to the numbers travelling the number of tables has been reduced to fit more seats in each carriage. Purists may moan about the longer end to end and more cramped interiors - but these are driven by consumer demand.

 

A similar situation occurred on the ECML from Peterborough and to a lesser extent Grantham, etc

[jim.snowdon]

59 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

This is very much the case - the massive cut in journey times the HST allowed produced a whole new generation of long distance commuters who could get nicer and cheaper houses in Oxfordshire and Wiltshire, yet still be able to commute into London every day.

 

Therefore over the years more stops have been inserted in previously fast London to Bristol express services and due to the numbers travelling the number of tables has been reduced to fit more seats in each carriage. Purists may moan about the longer end to end and more cramped interiors - but these are driven by consumer demand.

 

A similar situation occurred on the ECML from Peterborough and to a lesser extent Grantham, etc

The histories of commuting and the railways have been irrevocably intertwined ever since railways started carrying passengers. A century ago it was phenomena such as Metroland and Southern Electric, now, it is the 125mph railway.

 

Jim

[Coryton]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

Therefore over the years more stops have been inserted in previously fast London to Bristol express services and due to the numbers travelling the number of tables has been reduced to fit more seats in each carriage. Purists may moan about the longer end to end and more cramped interiors - but these are driven by consumer demand.

 

Though to be fair the "cramped interiors" have some of the most generous leg-room in airline seats you'll find in the UK in standard class. (I.e. no need to find a table seat to use a regular sized laptop). The legroom in the table seats is, however, appalling.

 

And they are being replaced with IETs which do have a fair number of tables and generous leg-room throughout (even more in airline seats than the Mk 3's, I think).

 

Of course if passenger numbers continue to rise, we might see a change in seat layout in the IETs in due course.

[ColinK]

Or you could say that to cope with the demand, more seats are being squeezed in each coach, instead of adding more coaches or more trains.

 

On her daily journey home from Manchester to Lancaster, my wife now uses the all stations slow Northern service and changes onto a Virgin train Preston simply because the direct and fast TPE service is so unpleasantly overcrowded.  The new trains TPE are getting for this service will have an extra coach (5 instead of four)  when they really need to be at least 6 cars.

[black and decker boy]

17 minutes ago, ColinK said:

.  The new trains TPE are getting for this service will have an extra coach (5 instead of four)  when they really need to be at least 6 cars.

The 397s are 5*23m coaches though. The outgoing 350/4 are 4*20m so it’s not far from the equivalent to 6 coaches.

 

mind you, if they can’t double up the 397s then some services will be worse as 2*4 car 350/4 have been used though I understand recently this hasn’t been possible due to units being out of service.

Edited March 9, 2019 by black and decker boy

[hexagon789]

On 09/03/2019 at 19:21, ColinK said:

Or you could say that to cope with the demand, more seats are being squeezed in each coach, instead of adding more coaches or more trains.

 

On her daily journey home from Manchester to Lancaster, my wife now uses the all stations slow Northern service and changes onto a Virgin train Preston simply because the direct and fast TPE service is so unpleasantly overcrowded.  The new trains TPE are getting for this service will have an extra coach (5 instead of four)  when they really need to be at least 6 cars.

 

Perhaps though, it's more important to compare seating capacity rather than number of coaches.

[Reorte]

Not sure what the current situation is but before I got fed up of travelling by train I sometimes used TPE between Manchester and Penrith, that was usually doubled up 185s that split at Preston, and were usually very crowded in the early evening (before that it was very crowded Voyagers and before that it was loco hauled with I can't remember how many, although IIRC that one had come all the way from down south somewhere).