TPE new trains

[Reorte]

unfortunatly as russ says, and ive not been on the railway that long myself, but some drivers just dont want to get in and get their hands dirty, indeed some are simply scared to drive locos, the common factor being they are worried incase it fails, there were a number of drivers at chiltern who would sell their granny if it meant they could get out of driving the loco hauled stock

Why is a loco more of a concern for failure than a unit? The idea that an engine or two might go on a unit but it'll still be able to limp on to somewhere?

[russ p]

Although the 68 and 88 look similar and share a lot of components you couldn't easily convert one to the other.

The 88 diesel engine wouldn't be any use for say Northallerton to Middlesbrough either,well not at any decent speed!

[jamie92208]

I believe that those calculations have been one recently. IIRC Ian Walmsley writing in Modern Railways has been a consistent advocate of loco haulage. Coming from a Rosco background he was well up in whole life costs and I think that the tipping point was from 4 to 5 vehicles, after which the loco won out in terms of reliability and cost.

 

Jamie

[Zomboid]

I believe that those calculations have been one recently. IIRC Ian Walmsley writing in Modern Railways has been a consistent advocate of loco haulage. Coming from a Rosco background he was well up in whole life costs and I think that the tipping point was from 4 to 5 vehicles, after which the loco won out in terms of reliability and cost.

 

Jamie

Presumably that includes reliability of the carriages, which would be affected if they were formed into an unpowered MU setup rather than as loose vehicles.

Who knows, all I can do is speculate. We will see what gets built in due course. It's good to see that there will be the option to travel on a non electrified route without having to sit on top of the diesel engine...

[Talltim]

And as the new class 68s will be working with a Driving Van at the other end there'll be no need for coupling up.

 

 

I would imagine it would be a passenger carrying cab car, with maybe a short non passenger section, like behind the cab of a Voyager

[big jim]

Why is a loco more of a concern for failure than a unit? The idea that an engine or two might go on a unit but it'll still be able to limp on to somewhere?

It's more of a subliminal thing with individual drivers I think, some look at locos with fear and dread! No greater chance of a loco failing than a unit

[Reorte]

It's more of a subliminal thing with individual drivers I think, some look at locos with fear and dread! No greater chance of a loco failing than a unit

I suppose that was understandable in the early days of frequently exploding boilers but I thought that we'd moved on a bit since then...

[SwissRailPassion]

I meant to say Driving Trailer, some kind of DBSO or DBFO. Austrian Railjet style.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I imagine a Driving First and four seconds.

The CAF solution may be cheaper for Scotland than the 125 option. Basically a UK version of the Austrian Railjet.

There has never been huge demand for first class on TPE so that is probably about right. They might go for another option with the second vehicle being a composite with the first section having 2+1 seating but to standard class spacing. That could be used for standard upgrade when demand for first is lower.

[Talltim]

One advantage of a loco and unpowered coaches is that you can hear station announcements because the loco tends to be away down the end of the platform somewhere. Trying to hear a platform change with a a Voyager, a Meridian and two 158s going next to you like can happen on Sheffield station is nigh on impossible,

I recently travelled to electric train land, and was shocked how quiet an EMU was pulling away, I'd forgotten, despite commuting for 8 years on Thameslink as a yoof

[Reorte]

I recently travelled to electric train land, and was shocked how quiet an EMU was pulling away, I'd forgotten, despite commuting for 8 years on Thameslink as a yoof

A few years ago I visited the East Lancs railway and some 20-somethings (at a guess) got on and were amazed at how quiet it was when we started moving. Being old Mk 1s that lasted all of until we were at about walking pace before rattling and groaning, but the move off certainly surprised them.

 

In my experience electrics are slightly noisier than that but far, far less than underfloor diesels. The loudest noise (at least in Pendolinos, which is about the only electric I've been on fairly recently) is the air conditioning, which is loud enough that it's noticeably pleasant when it cuts out for a few seconds (I assume that's when going through a neutral section).

[Zomboid]

There has never been huge demand for first class on TPE so that is probably about right. They might go for another option with the second vehicle being a composite with the first section having 2+1 seating but to standard class spacing. That could be used for standard upgrade when demand for first is lower.

TPE is changing its offering though, from a regional interurban kind of thing to an intercity operation. In that context having a reasonable first class might make sense.

[nightstar.train]

I'm intrigued by the order for push-pull stock on top of the AT300s. 

 

I think the order is more to do with timescales than anything. The AT300s won't arrive until 2019, and Hitachi's order book is full. A further order for AT300s wouldn't arrive until later, 2020 or after. TPE need new trains by 2018 for their committed services. TPE might prefer a homogeneous fleet, but that just isn't possible. CAF don't offer a bi-mode train so TPE would either have to be stuck with DMUs under the wires in the future, or buy LHCS and swap engines as and when the wires extend. Also I think the LHCS could be built quicker as production is already gearing up for the Mk5 sleeper order for CS, and they are less complex than a D/EMU.

 

As an aside I think that the AT300s/SETs can have their Diesel engines removed if the wires extend far enough to remove the need for them.

[jamie92208]

The other great factor with LHCS is that it's relatively easy to add more vehicles and if the 88's are used once the wires are up then I think that that would be a distinct possibility.

 

Jamie

[159220]

Has there been any indication whether the LHCS will have the same/similar body shells as the stock being built for the Caledonian Sleeper? IIRC it was Rail Magazine that informally referred to these as the Mark 5.

 

Cheers

David

 

There are a few images showing the LHCS as similar driving cab to the CAF Class 195/331. Seeing as we have not yet seen any CAD image of the CAF Sleeper coaches it is difficult to say. But the LHCS shall have the cab of the civity range of units. I could be wrong, but the sleeper coaches are of a different design, more of a hybrid of the Irish CAF coaches. The seating plan images released by CS last year suggested this to be true.

 

We just need a model manufacturer to make the CAF Civity range, then we can have 195/331/LHCS+68s and perhaps the new Intercity Civity.

 

CAF CS Sleeper Coach:

CAF Civity (rear unit of the LHCS Driving coach) - this could of been edited to just have the same nose as the EMU Intercity Civity for TPE:

 

 

 

 

68016-68025 have electric train supply. Or it must of been a figmant of my imagination for when they have worked the Fife circle trains with air conditioned coaches that require a electric train supply....

 

68016-020 and 68023 of this batch have worked the Fife circle trains so far.

 

68001 has for some reason its ETS isolated at the moment according to TOPS.

 

AIUI from other sources, 68026-68041 will be the dedicated locos for Trans Pennine - a extra 10 locos on order/to be ordered.

SORRY, LATE NIGHT TYPO! (Beer festival and all...) I have edited to mean AAR or other similar multiple working system to work with the proposed Driving Coach. Should not be too much of a problem for 68026-032 for the Mk3 sets until 2018.

Yes 68001-032 all have ETS. Apologies for the confusion.

Edited May 24, 2016 by 159220

[Joseph_Pestell]

The other great factor with LHCS is that it's relatively easy to add more vehicles and if the 88's are used once the wires are up then I think that that would be a distinct possibility.

 

Jamie

As per #45.

 

Extending the train to 7 or even 8 carriages should be possible with an electric loco.

 

It does look as though the LHCS could be pretty much a clone of the EMUs.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Joseph_Pestell

[Phatbob]

I noticed the press release said 126 vehicles, in 5 carriage sets.  That means just one spare.  Mystic Bob predicts six driving trailer firsts/composits with wheelchair space and accessible toilet.  The rest as standard class opens.  That way the mission critical vehicle is the spare, which can be swapped for any of the other other vehicles without compromising the usefulnes of the whole set.

[Glorious NSE]

Why is a loco more of a concern for failure than a unit? The idea that an engine or two might go on a unit but it'll still be able to limp on to somewhere?

Not necessarily limp - Voyagers tend to run round all the time with one engine switched out these days which means it's likely nobody on the train other than the driver would even notice if an engine had failed on one of them.

 

A modern diesel like the 68 ought to be seriously reliable, but it is undeniably a single point of failure. OTOH you should be able to swap the loco out for an alternative easily (presuming that it hasn't failed in Newcastle and your nearest spare one is in Manchester) - or at least drag it...

[Talltim]

Not necessarily limp - Voyagers tend to run round all the time with one engine switched out these days which means it's likely nobody on the train other than the driver would even notice if an engine had failed on one of them.

 

 

I notice, it makes for a much more pleasant journey!

[Coryton]

As an aside I think that the AT300s/SETs can have their Diesel engines removed if the wires extend far enough to remove the need for them.

 

Or vice versa, as presumably will happen to cope with the delays to electrification.

[Glorious NSE]

I notice, it makes for a much more pleasant journey!

What I mean is, you have no way of telling whether an engine is failed or just switched off...

 

Nice to see that CAF are continuing the long tradition of not lining up the seats with the windows.

[admiles]

Slightly (ok, very) off-topic but could someone please suggest new -build LHCS to whoever needs to know for the new Greater Anglia franchise please?

 I really don't want the service dumbed down with new EMUs with doors at 1/3 and 2/3. Yeah, ok I know it won't happen!

[Zomboid]

Slightly (ok, very) off-topic but could someone please suggest new -build LHCS to whoever needs to know for the new Greater Anglia franchise please?

I really don't want the service dumbed down with new EMUs with doors at 1/3 and 2/3. Yeah, ok I know it won't happen!

Something like a 444 would be OK for the Norwich line, though some sets of these carriages with an 88 would probably be better (does Yarmouth still have through trains? I imagine an 88 might even be up to trundling across the broads on diesel power)

[Phatbob]

Nice to see that CAF are continuing the long tradition of not lining up the seats with the windows.

 

Really?  Have we seen seating plans yet?

I've ridden the CAF units in NI and they have good alignment between the seats and the windows.  Comfy seats too.

I do hope that somebody at TPE is aware of the issue and will ensure that we paying punters will be able to admire the scenery as we trundle accross the Pennines.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Phatbob

[newbryford]

The other great factor with LHCS is that it's relatively easy to add more vehicles and if the 88's are used once the wires are up then I think that that would be a distinct possibility.

 

Jamie

 

The extra length may cause platform issues at the likes of Newcastle Central - the bays that aren't very long and the through platforms may not be available for long enough periods.

 

Cheers,

Mick