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Richard Hall

Chinese motor test

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The first parcel of Chinese motors arrived last week.  These are 3 pole 1015 flat cans, costing 37 pence each.  In the spirit of the old Iain Rice motor surveys I stuffed one into the first chassis that came to hand (an old Farish Pannier) to see what it would do.  The answer is a lot better than I expected for the money.  It isn't as sweet as a Mashima, and rather noisier, but slow speed running is very good even on a cheap and nasty controller. I hung three coaches and 35 wagons on the back of the Pannier and it seemed perfectly happy with that for 30 minutes or so continuous running at moderate speed. It didn't overheat, or catch fire, or just go "fzzzzt" and stop working which I half expected.

 

DSCN0537_zps1ratnzpa.jpg

 

 

Motor is 15 x 12 x 10 with a 1mm diameter shaft, and the brushgear at the shaft end.  At the back there are three threaded holes for mounting, two large and one small.

 

DSCN0538_zpszzpcsqey.jpg

 

At the front is this plastic lug:

 

DSCN0536_zpsipg4bmo2.jpg

 

I suspect that with proper gearing rather than the Farish toy train 30:1 or so, and a better controller (mine is actually a toy train controller, it is from a Farish train set and the only working controller I have at the moment) these little motors should do very well.  The only reservation I have is build quality: there's a fair amount of endfloat on the motor shaft, and I don't know how well the thrust washers inside will cope with the end load from a worm gear. Ideally I'd use spur gear primary drive, maybe 2:1 or so.  But overall I'm impressed, especially for 37 pence...

 

Richard

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Motor test no 2 - another Poole relic, but possibly of interest to 2mm modellers as I have put the motor in the tender, driving via a ball and socket shaft.  This one still needs work: my home-made driveshaft doesn't give enough movement on sharp curves, especially in reverse. In fact the whole installation is a bit of a lash-up, with about a ten degree angle between the two driveshafts due to extreme laziness on my part.  And the wiring is horrible.  But in a straight line it's lovely, absolutely dead smooth constant speed even with the wheels turning at around one revolution every three seconds. These motors are the bargain of the century.

 

I managed to bend the shaft on one, trying to press on a brass sleeve with the world's worst vice. That gave me the opportunity to pull it to bits and see what it's made of.  The armature is a bit crudely finished, but it has pretty substantial phosphor bronze bearings, with what look like nylon thrust washers.  Brushgear is metal on metal which will kill it in the end, but I suspect most can motors are like that - "sealed for life" with non-replaceable brushes.

 

DSCN0539_zps5hp26kp5.jpg

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Hmmm... I thought my Gaugemaster HH feedback controller had died, but it was just a bad connection in the DIN plug. In the interests of science I tried it with the Chinese motors and it turns out that the one in the Pannier has a very small dead spot on it: at very low speeds (and I mean 1 wheel revolution every 5 seconds) it sometimes stops dead and needs a shove to get it moving.  Not a pickup issue, it's actually the motor itself.  The one in the 4F has no such problem, and actually runs slightly better at ridiculously slow speeds than my Mashima M16K-motored J39. If you are using these motors, better test them before you fit them to anything.

 

For those with too much time on their hands, here is possibly the most boring video ever uploaded to YouTube - J39 and 4F.  They aren't actually coupled together, but speed is near enough the same on both for a given controller setting.

 

https://youtu.be/J-2NLbInWMQ

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Just got a batch of the cheap Chinese 37p motors, and they are pretty good. One exhibited the "Dead Spot", but after opening it up it proved to be the brush gear on one side of the commutator was not touching at 180deg to the other side, slight re-adjust and it is OK.

they are slightly noisier than Mashima, but quietened with a dash of thicker oil on the bearings. Even ths small size would power a 4mm loco of modest size.The size suits 2mm and narrow gauge locos.

 

But the reference to the Polish suppliers of the gears, motors, and gearboxes is far more interesting, as the range is very comprehensive indeed. There are several units that could drop into locos at once, complete with motor. I assume the motors are Far eastern and the gears Polish made. It could all be FE, but it does not matter if the quality is there. Some of the bigger units look the same as used in German kit locos.

 

The supply times look all right, and prices are very competitive.

A certain UK gear supplier should look at the delivery times.......

 

Anyway a large and comprehensive order is going in to them for gearboxes, and spur gears, it provides the stuff to finish several projects, but it still leaves the question of why this supplier was never mentioned before on here.(Unless you know otherwise).

 

As the 2mm Association are a customer of theirs can members comment on the quality of the gears etc?

 

Stephen

Edited by bertiedog
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Just got a batch of the cheap Chinese 37p motors, and they are pretty good. One exhibited the "Dead Spot", but after opening it up it proved to be the brush gear on one side of the commutator was not touching at 180deg to the other side, slight re-adjust and it is OK.

they are slightly noisier than Mashima, but quietened with a dash of thicker oil on the bearings. Even ths small size would power a 4mm loco of modest size.The size suits 2mm and narrow gauge locos.

 

But the reference to the Polish suppliers of the gears, motors, and gearboxes is far more interesting, as the range is very comprehensive indeed. There are several units that could drop into locos at once, complete with motor. I assume the motors are Far eastern and the gears Polish made. It could all be FE, but it does not matter if the quality is there. Some of the bigger units look the same as used in German kit locos.

 

The supply times look all right, and prices are very competitive.

A certain UK gear supplier should look at the delivery times.......

 

Anyway a large and comprehensive order is going in to them for gearboxes, and spur gears, it provides the stuff to finish several projects, but it still leaves the question of why this supplier was never mentioned before on here.(Unless you know otherwise).

 

As the 2mm Association are a customer of theirs can members comment on the quality of the gears etc?

 

Stephen

if I recall Missy first mentioned these 2011/2012  ,  and I was using some  parts in 2012  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65499-whats-on-your-2mm-work-bench/page-1

 

I have no complaints as to the quality either supplied directly or via 2mm Association

 

Nick

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I am using these cheap Chinese cans on my US brass locos and they are very good .My hon3 C-16 runs sweeter on it than the mashima ,both new .I used a FF50 12V on a brass shay and it ran very sweetly .So far I have run one unloaded for about 6 hrs flat out and no over heating so far .Not a very scientific test but as these motors are used in BMW locks and some shavers I expect decent reliability .The silver and yellow larger types are good as well for larger locos.

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Just got a batch of the cheap Chinese 37p motors, and they are pretty good. 

The supply times look all right, and prices are very competitive.

 

Are you able please to post a link to the seller of these? Would be most appreciated.

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Anyway a large and comprehensive order is going in to them for gearboxes, and spur gears, it provides the stuff to finish several projects, but it still leaves the question of why this supplier was never mentioned before on here.(Unless you know otherwise).

 

As the 2mm Association are a customer of theirs can members comment on the quality of the gears etc?

 

Stephen

 

As Nick has said, they have been mentioned on here many times in various places, but probably hidden away on different threads.

 

Quality-wise other more prolific loco builders are in a better position to advise, but I'm not aware of any significant problems and provided you inspect the gears and remove any odd bits of swarf before installing them then they should be fine.

 

Andy

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In the interests of science I tried it with the Chinese motors and it turns out that the one in the Pannier has a very small dead spot on it: at very low speeds (and I mean 1 wheel revolution every 5 seconds) it sometimes stops dead and needs a shove to get it moving.  Not a pickup issue, it's actually the motor itself. 

 

 

If the motor always starts whether cold or warm then there isn't a dead spot in it. Even with the smallest dead spot the motor will tend to apparently come to rest there and won't restart without help, (actually what happens is that the motor starts to rotate but doesn't have enough momentum to get past the dead spot on the first revolution, so it stops again having done no more than one partial revolution, and, of course, since it is now on the dead spot it won't restart itself again). If this is the case, then the problem is mechanical, a tight spot rather than a dead spot, and if this is within the motor itself, running it in both ways with low power and no load should eventually clear it.

 

If the motor starts cold, will continue to run (especially with no load) but won't restart warm after being stopped, then the problem is a dry joint somewhere within it. Putting a resistance meter across the terminals after the motor has stopped itself can be quite informative as, if it is a dry joint problem, you will see a rapid countdown in the number of ohms resistance on the meter's display. This sort of problem isn't really solvable on motors this small.

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The tight spot may be a bent shaft, only a tiny amount perhaps, which could even allow the poles to touch the magnet. Needs the shaft tested and straightened in a collet lathe, but in this size? and 37 p.......

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Oddly the dead spot went away with a bit more running.  It was definitely dead, not just binding.  My best guess is a small bit of stray insulating material in one of the commutator slots, right at the edge of the area contacted by the brushes and just enough to occasionally lift one of them clear of the commutator. But what do you expect for the price of half a Mars bar?

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I suspect that these motors were made t sell at a much higher price, so many older motor designs are getting outdated now. The digital cameras used them for focus etc, but they use stepper motors now, eject mechanisms in VHS, toys, etc., are all changing fast. Mitsumi have put a lot of smaller motors on the market to clear out old stocks. Better coreless designs are done for straight DC, and stepper are even in linear form in ordinary equipment.

 

The only small motors not to try in locos are the tiny coreless for the micro drones, they are very high speed on low voltage, and would need lots of gearing down. Also they cannot take much end thrust, although many micro drone makers use them that way on propellers. Nigel Lawton's approach with pulleys is the safe way to use them.

 

At least if the conventional motors have a double shaft, collars to take thrust can be added, more difficult with a single shaft. A transmission shaft with joint gets around the problem.

 

Stephen

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I suspect that these motors were made t sell at a much higher price, so many older motor designs are getting outdated now. The digital cameras used them for focus etc, but they use stepper motors now, eject mechanisms in VHS, toys, etc., are all changing fast. Mitsumi have put a lot of smaller motors on the market to clear out old stocks. Better coreless designs are done for straight DC, and stepper are even in linear form in ordinary equipment.

 

I'm sure you are right, at this price they are either surplus stock or (if we are unlucky) QA rejects fished out of a bin at the back of the Red Flag People's Liberation Micro Motor and Bicycle Factory. A couple of years from now we will all be wishing we had bought more while we could.   I have 20 (less the one that I wrecked) - I think that's enough but maybe I should order another ten just to be safe.

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Anyone received any of the 716 coreless ones yet? I've sent off for 8 of them.

Jim

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Sent off for a selection of different sized Chinese ones to do my own tests with. Could prove interesting.

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The 716 coreless is similar to the Nigel Lawton types he does for 009 etc.

 

Be careful with these, they are very fast, and to develop any power have to have high gear ratio gear sets. Any end thrust is not desirable, so no mounting a worm direct on the shaft. They can take the belts that Nigel Lawton does though.

 

They can be use with a pinion gear driving a layshaft with the worm on it. This would say double the worm ratio of say 30:1 to 60:1 with two to one gears. (or belts).

 

They are sold in huge quantities for drones and model planes, where they do attach the prop direct, but they have little concern with the life of the bearings.

 

The motors are very efficient, and have large back EMF, so feedback controllers may not work, and pulse power makes them noisy, as the low mas inside can track the AC waveform, due to low inertia.

 

Stephen.

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Anyone received any of the 716 coreless ones yet? I've sent off for 8 of them.

Jim

Hi Jim,

 

Yes,

 

I received 4 last week. I've only tested them to see they work - they all run smoothly as far as I can tell. They look almost identical to the Graham Farish 716s used in the latest locos, just a minor difference in the rear end plastic cover.

 

Nig H

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I received my 4 yesterday. I will not get around to using them any time soon though.

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The fears about problems with end thrust on these small coreless motors is overstated in 2mm. I have over a dozen locos running with Nigel Lawton or similar motors, John Greenwood also uses them as standard. All the tank locos have the worm mounted directly on the motor and all have run many hundreds of hours. I've never had a problem or a failure yet.

 

I've bought a load of the little 7mm coreless motors, they are all but identical to the latest Farish motor and may well be the same. I've attached some pictures, the Farish on has the F on it so I could tell them apart!

 

post-1074-0-44184100-1464862412_thumb.jpg

 

post-1074-0-22593100-1464862444_thumb.jpg

 

Edit to apologise for poor pictures - will snap some better ones later

 

Jerry

Edited by queensquare
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I'm looking forward to some of the 716 motors arriving, I have recently bought some on eBay. I've also ordered some of the 1015 cans as well.

 

One will go into "Grandfather's Hammer", a Poole Farish Jinty that has the 1st generation conversion kit with the thin PCB overlay frames. The only part of the chassis left will be the Mazak frame block and I'm considering replacing that too!  It's destined to become 47445 as used at British Oak near Crigglestone (https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/2347603066).

 

It's encouraging to see that the Farish 0-6-0 chassis responded well to remotoring. The conversion kit re-geared the chassis using the Ultrascale 38:1 100dp gearset, which will be a big change from the Farish 17:1.

 

Mark

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