runs as required Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 I found that a most interesting sequence of up-to-date photos of the GER pre-Parkeston Quay Harwich frontage I sketched over 60 years ago. What surprises me is how much I had mentally compressed the length of quay between the train ferry installation and the Town Hall, now occupied by the extensive Trinity House facility. As (Kevin) Nearholmer mentioned above, the 3 Richborough-Dunkirk WW1 train ferry steamers were acquired, reconditioned by GE Train Ferries Ltd and put into service from the Harwich train ferry berth opened (now by the LNER) in 1924. dh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon0r Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 I have a copy of Ships and Ship Models published in 1937. On page 43 there is an article titled The Story of the Belles which is about a fleet of paddle steamers, built in the late 1800s, that ran out of the east and south east coasts. They are very elegant paddle steamers which might make the basis of a nice model. The smallest was the Woolwich Belle at 200 feet. I'd scan the article for you but I'm not sure if it is out of copyright. If you Google ' woolwich belle paddle steamer ' you will find all sorts of images. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northroader Posted June 9, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 9, 2016 Here's a small quayside/ railway scene, downsizing from what we've been looking at, and done in N. It also features Medway Queen a small paddle steamer such as just referred to in the last post:http://www.medwayqueen.co.uk/railway-wagons---n-gauge.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted June 9, 2016 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 9, 2016 I have a copy of Ships and Ship Models published in 1937. On page 43 there is an article titled The Story of the Belles which is about a fleet of paddle steamers, built in the late 1800s, that ran out of the east and south east coasts. They are very elegant paddle steamers which might make the basis of a nice model. The smallest was the Woolwich Belle at 200 feet. I'd scan the article for you but I'm not sure if it is out of copyright. If you Google ' woolwich belle paddle steamer ' you will find all sorts of images. I don't think there is a problem scanning the article since neither of us intend to make financial gain from the copy - private research is I think the technical term. It probably is just out of copyright anyway - unless the copyright has been renewed by re-issuing the article at a later date. I think these ships are too small for the immediate need. I started out expecting to build a paddle steamer, but it seems by 1900 cross channel and cross North Sea ferries were all being built at screw driven. However, the Humber is a very wide estuary so a ferry to Lincolnshire could feature later. The Hull Ferry to Barton was still paddle driven when withdrawn in (I think) the early 1980s. At the moment I think I am going to use my profile drawings for SS Engadine (SECR) with Northroader's Titanic profiles on page 1. The basic hull shapes seem similar - just different dimensions. Ordered in 1910, she was a copy with upgrades of earlier ships built for the SECR (Queen, Onward and Invicta - launched 1905; and Empress and Victoria - launched 1907). Unless of course someone can come with a better offer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted June 9, 2016 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 9, 2016 Ah the Medway Queen - happy memories of day trips from Chatham pier to Southend as a small lad. You were allowed down below to see the workings of the engines driving the paddles. Fantastic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joppyuk1 Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Has anybody suggested asking on one of the Model Boat sites? Model Boats Magazine and Model Boat Mayhem are the two best forums, and the correspondence are as knowlegable and helpful on there as we are on here. You may have to register to start with, but that's a minimal consideration. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caley Jim Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Ah the Medway Queen - happy memories of day trips from Chatham pier to Southend as a small lad. You were allowed down below to see the workings of the engines driving the paddles. Fantastic. Same here on the Clyde paddle steamers (of which the Waverley is still running, the last ocean going paddle steamer in the world). The bar was also below decks so men often left their spouses on deck to 'go doon tae see the ingines'! Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
runs as required Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 Ah the Medway Queen - happy memories of day trips from Chatham pier to Southend as a small lad. You were allowed down below to see the workings of the engines driving the paddles. Fantastic. The Southend paddle steamer trip I remember was the Golden Eagle from Tower Bridge down the Thames to Southend pier, then on past those amazing forts in the estuary across to Margate and back. It seemed a long long day, interesting engines and close up sights of the splashing paddles from the lower decks notwithstanding. 2 Years later in the mid 1960s we often used the 'Imperial Eagle' Malta-Gozo car ferry and wondered if it was second-hand from the Thames. Googling before I posted this, it appears it was renamed in Malta from Crested Eagle, bought from the Yorkshire Steamers company that ran the Scarborough/Bridlington steamers. The 'Crested Eagle' of Eagle Steamers ended tragically off Dunkirk in 1940, sunk with 300 soldiers aboard and all hands . dh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 Out of your selected time period, but someone did build a train ferry here. There is also a link to another forum where someone builds HMS Daffodil, formerly a train ferry. You need to join the forum to see the pictures. There is at least one working model in 7mm which I've seen on a Belgian forum. As Bill has already pointed out, though, there was no 'train ferry' in the generally understood sense in the North Sea until 1917. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted June 10, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 10, 2016 Thus far the smallest North Sea ferry I can find from the pre 1914 period is the L&YR's SS Equity which was a cargo vessel 220ft x 36ft overall so still pretty big in 4mm scale - but with very nice funnel colours. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted June 10, 2016 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 10, 2016 And that summarises the situation, the smallest ship you can find was 1/4 size the Titanic, the largest are more than 1/3rd. As I posted earlier, these were big ships - even if the journeys were short. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 No,no these were small ships, the Barton ferries were 201 ft LOA, these railway ships were just a little bigger than that. Don't forget that there were steam packets that plied up and down the east coast on regular schedules. There is more information about shipping around the Humber on this site Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 Out of your selected time period, but someone did build a train ferry here. There is also one on Burntisland Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted June 10, 2016 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 10, 2016 No,no these were small ships, the Barton ferries were 201 ft LOA, these railway ships were just a little bigger than that. Don't forget that there were steam packets that plied up and down the east coast on regular schedules. There is more information about shipping around the Humber on this site Thanks for the link Bill which is very interesting. However what you describe are inland waterway ships and coastal ships and the inland waterway Humber Ferry. We can of course debate what big and small really mean I thought (as I suspect a lot of modellers might have done) when I set out on this project that I could build a cross North Sea ferry boat that would take up between 18 and 24 inches maximum - about the size you are talking about. The reality is that to do justice to cross sea ships I am going to need as near as damn it 4ft = 1 layout board length for a ship. The Engadine - which looks like the likely victim in this - was built at 316ft length = 1.25metres in 4mm. Titanic was 883 ft - so less than 3 times the length. For the times these were indeed big ships compared to the short distances they were expected to cover. Remember the Engadine was built for the 22 mile Dover Calais route. Compared with the Titanic not quite 3 times the size but designed to cover 3000+ mile journeys. Anyway, big or small, I have 4ft of harbour wall now earmarked for a ferry ship. At least in terms of modellers' expectations (if not absolute size) these ferries were big ships for their times. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northroader Posted June 11, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 11, 2016 I've been trying to find some ferry drawings for the 1900 era. There are free downloads here, http://freeshipplans.com, and http://www.themodelshipwright.com/, which give a range of useful ships, which could appear in your model, but not ferry boats. By the way, it was Kevin, (Nearholmer) who did the Titanic drawings, not me, these could be as good a basis as anything else. The model shipwrights site also gives a good write up on building a solid wooden hull, by cutting and stacking planks. Another good site I've found is: http://www.simplonpc.co.uk ,which is a good selection of old postcard pictures of shipping. The ferry range includes the European lines which gave services coming our way from Denmark, Belgium, Holland, and so on, so you could include a different funnel or national flag, adding a more exotic touch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted June 11, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 11, 2016 I've been trying to find some ferry drawings for the 1900 era. There are free downloads here, http://freeshipplans.com, and http://www.themodelshipwright.com/, which give a range of useful ships, which could appear in your model, but not ferry boats. By the way, it was Kevin, (Nearholmer) who did the Titanic drawings, not me, these could be as good a basis as anything else. The model shipwrights site also gives a good write up on building a solid wooden hull, by cutting and stacking planks. Another good site I've found is: http://www.simplonpc.co.uk ,which is a good selection of old postcard pictures of shipping. The ferry range includes the European lines which gave services coming our way from Denmark, Belgium, Holland, and so on, so you could include a different funnel or national flag, adding a more exotic touch. One useful way of searching for ferries in the Pre-Group era is to search by railway company name (and wording along the lines of 'ships of' or company name + 'ships' - some had quite large and diverse fleets (the L&YR is a good example as it operated off both the East and West Coast). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 In North Eastern Record Vol 1 there is a drawing of the Wilson line ship Hero. This is 216' x 30' x 13' 6". It is a cargo ship with, maybe, a few cabins. The drawing i marked; "Drawing: Brynmor Jones Library, Hull, Traced by PG Los." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted June 12, 2016 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 12, 2016 Thanks agian Bill It is amazing the smalll circles that go around, bringing you back to places you have been before. Hero is the drawing that Northender kindly sent me. Now that you say that it comes from the NERA volume 1, I realise that I already had it - had I but known or recorded the fact back when I read through the book. And finally I spent many happy hours in the Brynmor Jones Library in my youth. Unfortunately I must have been on the wrong floor. IIRC floor 6 was where the Chemistry geeks hung out. I guess the drawings would have been on the history floor. There are many pictures of passenger ferries around and these are very helpful, but it it very surprising how few drawings are available*. Likewise with kits. you can find naval ships aplenty; liners and cruise ships, seek further and you will find historic sailing ships, barges, fishing boats, even motor yachts. But passenger ferries?? Artitec do a small river ferry and there is a model of a Swiss lake paddle steamer ferry (I did think about this at one stage).. Beyond that there seems to be very little. * and especially drawings that can be used to construct a fairly accurate model. Side profiles are useful. Deck plans help a lot, but without waterline plans or front end profiles, a lot has to be inspired guesswork - and since this is not my area of expertise the level of inspiration is rather low. Anyway I now have what I think is the basis to construct a vessel and as I make progress - which I promise will be slow - I will post what I have done so that should anyone else want to follow a similar path, they have some ideas of how not to do it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mikkel Posted October 7, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 7, 2016 Andy, I have only just found this thread. What a fascinating topic and a great idea for a layout. I know you "promised" to be slow, but I was just wondering there is any progress on the vessel yet that we can see? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgman Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Hi Andy, Like Mikkel I've just seen your thread and certainly find the inclusion of a vessel of great interest. If you've a mind to build something I've found that the use of decent cross-sections to be of great help. Some may say its a bit OTT but I've found its probably the best way to get the "feel" of a vessel correct. I've modelled several in the past ( others may recognise the photos....sorry for including them again, hope you don't mind ?) and found the use of 1mm ply to be an excellent material as it can be shaped/steamed (using the kettle!) to get shapes for hulls around formers. Here's one I've been working on which may be of some interest... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Hi Andy, Like Mikkel I've just seen your thread and certainly find the inclusion of a vessel of great interest. If you've a mind to build something I've found that the use of decent cross-sections to be of great help. Some may say its a bit OTT but I've found its probably the best way to get the "feel" of a vessel correct. I've modelled several in the past ( others may recognise the photos....sorry for including them again, hope you don't mind ?) and found the use of 1mm ply to be an excellent material as it can be shaped/steamed (using the kettle!) to get shapes for hulls around formers. Here's one I've been working on which may be of some interest... fullsizeoutput_4e9.jpeg fullsizeoutput_4eb.jpeg fullsizeoutput_4fd.jpeg I am hugely impressed, and not a little envious. really excellent work and a great subject. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Argos Posted October 7, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 7, 2016 Hi Andy, Like Mikkel I've just seen your thread and certainly find the inclusion of a vessel of great interest. If you've a mind to build something I've found that the use of decent cross-sections to be of great help. Some may say its a bit OTT but I've found its probably the best way to get the "feel" of a vessel correct. I've modelled several in the past ( others may recognise the photos....sorry for including them again, hope you don't mind ?) and found the use of 1mm ply to be an excellent material as it can be shaped/steamed (using the kettle!) to get shapes for hulls around formers. Here's one I've been working on which may be of some interest... fullsizeoutput_4e9.jpeg fullsizeoutput_4eb.jpe fullsizeoutput_4fd.jpeg Hi bgman, Wound love to see more of your ships and some of the techniques you've used. I have sketched out plan that might see the light of day sometime that would involve building a couple of paddlesteamers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgman Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Hi bgman, Wound love to see more of your ships and some of the techniques you've used. I have sketched out plan that might see the light of day sometime that would involve building a couple of paddlesteamers. Hi Argos, I'm happy to share some of my models as long as to OP doesn't mind them here ? I will remove them if required as I don't wish to appear to be hijacking the post so to speak. As mentioned previously, these have been shown elsewhere so apologies if you've seen them before. The paddle steamer innards are very basic on this hull and the base, as waterline model was the starting point for some of the formers The next was a skeleton shell built around sectional formers, a Severn Trow shell (to be completed) A similar vessel but made from card and using thick card formers built of a card keel Next was a Thames Barge built around sectional formers of 2mm ply (from memory) and then using 1mm ply to form the hull planking all scratch built including the paraphernalia cleats/anchor etc And finally a Tamar ketch being built from plans taken from a National Trust book All the building methods used were very similar but wherever possible plans were obtained and sections built off a keel or flat bottom to enable the hulls to be built up. I've found the whole exercise very interesting considering I've never built these types of models before but found it necessary to read as many books on the subject being modelled prior to commencing and hopefully some which include plans/sections which can be photocopied and scaled to suit. Cheers for now Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Hi Argos, I'm happy to share some of my models as long as to OP doesn't mind them here ? I will remove them if required as I don't wish to appear to be hijacking the post so to speak. As mentioned previously, these have been shown elsewhere so apologies if you've seen them before. The paddle steamer innards are very basic on this hull fullsizeoutput_ac5.jpeg and the base, as waterline model was the starting point for some of the formers fullsizeoutput_ac6.jpeg The next was a skeleton shell built around sectional formers, a Severn Trow shell (to be completed) fullsizeoutput_ad1.jpeg A similar vessel but made from card and using thick card formers built of a card keel fullsizeoutput_ad7.jpeg Next was a Thames Barge built around sectional formers of 2mm ply (from memory) and then using 1mm ply to form the hull planking fullsizeoutput_ad3.jpeg all scratch built including the paraphernalia cleats/anchor etc fullsizeoutput_ad5.jpeg fullsizeoutput_ad6.jpeg And finally a Tamar ketch being built from plans taken from a National Trust book fullsizeoutput_ad8.jpeg All the building methods used were very similar but wherever possible plans were obtained and sections built off a keel or flat bottom to enable the hulls to be built up. I've found the whole exercise very interesting considering I've never built these types of models before but found it necessary to read as many books on the subject being modelled prior to commencing and hopefully some which include plans/sections which can be photocopied and scaled to suit. Cheers for now Wow. This I will study carefully. I may have questions. Really very good! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted October 7, 2016 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted October 7, 2016 This summer has been very dry, so the bad news as far as modelling is concerned is that there has been no opportunity to develop the model - rainy days = modelling days here. I have however had time to plan and I am happy to share the process so far. Recap: I have a profile drawing of SS Engadine (SECR - just to keep the railway connection going) from "A Century of Cross Channel Ferries" by A Greenway). The profiles for the hull are missing. visually Titanic looks similar, but no kits of this ship are big enough scale to be used as a base. The Hull profiles posted on page 1 by Nearholmer for Titanic however give a possible start. I copied and printed out in portrait format and low and behold, the width was almost the same as required for a Chinese copy of SS Engadine and the waterline (always a bit moveable since it depends on the lading of the ship) was almost spot on. Luck more than any judgement. The profiles (aka I think as framing profiles) show the half profile of the ship running from the bow to the middle (right hand side) and stern to the middle (left hand side) and represent the frames on which the outer hull would have been built. There are 39 profiles with a bow in front and a stern point at the rear, so there are 40 sections to the ship. Some small changes will be needed because the forecastle (sticky up bit at the front of the hull) of Titanic runs back to around profile 15, whereas in the Engadine it is much shorter (I profile in fact). Engadine was 312ft long, so with 40 profiles the distance between each would be (nicely) 31.2mm apart. Very precise but equally rather difficult to mirror exactly. But since this is not supposed to represent Engadine exactly (and SECRT ship out of the Humber might just stretch history a bit). a slight adjustment is in order. And I have 30mm thick expanded PS sheet available. 40 x 30mm will give me a scale 300ft so 12ft short or 48mm. Seems close. The construction method will be to make two of each of the profiles - mirrored to show the other side. Glue these to front and back of a block of the extruded PS and then carve the profile. I can also add a top to these blocks because the profiles allow me to construct a deck profile. Glued together the 78 layers of paper are going to help reduce that 48mm shortfall in length. I think we are going to end up within spitting distance of the right length when we have finished - but that is for part 2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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