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HELP! New Layout Idea.


danstercivicman
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Hello,

 

I have not been doing much on my layout due to work and family stuff.  I have also been thinking that my current layout is...

 

1) over complicated

 

2) not prototypical 

 

3) we may be moving house

 

Last night I had this idea (see photo)

 

It is an through station, at each end there is a cassette system which feeds the layout.  

 

The layout would be made in 4 sections.  Each section would be portable and after running the layout could be dismantled and stored away.

 

The layout would be OO, BR steam LMR.  There are no facing points, it is double track with a goods shed.

 

Please have a look and let me know what you think?

post-22023-0-29494200-1465370392.jpg

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  • RMweb Gold

That's a very sound trackplan which allows freight trains in either direction to shunt the yard.

 

You may find that fiddleyard to fiddleyard is not ideal, especially if you are operating alone. A terminus station may offer more operationally and uses the space better.

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That's a very sound trackplan which allows freight trains in either direction to shunt the yard.

 

You may find that fiddleyard to fiddleyard is not ideal, especially if you are operating alone. A terminus station may offer more operationally and uses the space better.

Super, thanks for your comment.  Yes, I am stuck on whether to have a terminus or not... at present I have two on my layout which is sort of U-shaped in a basement.  The issue I have and please help if you can:

 

1) when a train comes into the terminus it comes in engine first.  I have release points but this makes the platform very long which eats up space.  Sometimes if there is a 6 coach train I have to shunt it backwards onto the working line to release the engine- was this prototypical?

 

2) I am assuming that a train when leaving would need to re-join the appropriate up line so this necessitates lots of point work.  These are facing points and de-railments of Bachmann MK-1's is a given...   This also eats up lots of space and needs tight curves to fit my 14ft basement wall,

 

3) When my terminus is busy it turns into a massive train jam!!

 

That's why I am thinking of a long but prototypical type set up of a country through station with a goods shed.  I can then run fast expresses by and slower pick up goods.  

 

Best

 

Dan

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You may find it easier not to have loco runround but use a station pilot loco to move the train to another platform (or carriage sidings) to release the incoming loco.

 

As you say, no way round the problem of facing points at a terminus. For satisfactory running, you really need to address the problem that is causing the Bachmann coaches to derail.

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I think a "no facing points" restriction on certain rolling stock is going to be unmanageable. You need to get your coaches running properly rather than build a new layout.

Of course that doesn't mean you shouldn't build a new layout if your existing one is unsatisfactory.

Edited by Zomboid
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You may find it easier not to have loco runround but use a station pilot loco to move the train to another platform (or carriage sidings) to release the incoming loco.

 

As you say, no way round the problem of facing points at a terminus. For satisfactory running, you really need to address the problem that is causing the Bachmann coaches to derail.

Thanks for the info,

 

A big hammer may be the solution!

 

So basically for a terminus to be accurate you also need space at the throat for the pilot to remove the ECS and then propel it back into an empty platform which releases the loco.  I presume the pilot would switch to pull the ECS back onto the UP main and then propel them backwards?

 

Best

 

Dan

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I presume the pilot would switch to pull the ECS back onto the UP main and then propel them backwards?

Release loco by drawing out coaches. Probably not onto the main for safety, but that is why there was often a complex throat at a terminus. So each track can get to another without shuffling back and forth.

 

After the loco is released, if there was turning facilities, itd be turned. If not, run backwards if it was scheduled for the departing train.

AFAIK.

Im not a coaching person, but its what Ive seen through my research.

If you have questions about goods handling on the other hand...

Edited by Spitfire2865
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Release loco by drawing out coaches. Probably not onto the main for safety, but that is why there was often a complex throat at a terminus. So each track can get to another without shuffling back and forth.

 

After the loco is released, if there was turning facilities, itd be turned. If not, run backwards if it was scheduled for the departing train.

AFAIK.

Im not a coaching person, but its what Ive seen through my research.

If you have questions about goods handling on the other hand...

Thanks very much for the info.  I have found in every terminus that I have ever made the throat point work to be the hardest to understand/get right...  I understand the idea of down main and up main.   Its just what happens after that that gets messy!  

 

I do have some goods handling questions- in my layout plan above the goods yard can be accessed by locos on both the up and down main.   Correct me if I'm wrong- for a pick up goods on the down main:

 

1) Loco hauls goods train on down main.   The loco would pause when the brake van is about to cross the points, that protect the back of the station.  The brake van would be detached.  The loco would then haul the goods train forward, detach and then use the next set of points to run round the back of its train using the next set of points to get to the back.

 

2) The loco would then pull stock off the rear of the goods train and place this into the goods sidings using the headshunt.  It would then collect more goods stock and place this on the rear of its train

 

3) The loco would then run around the train going the wrong way up the UP main, rejoin the front of the goods train, back the train towards the brake van, re-couple and then head off down the down main?

 

Hopefully that's correct process!

 

Best

Dan

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Looks like a very prototypical, and highly typical, through station to me, with the possible exception of the tandem turnout. They were fiddly and expensive, so usually confined to places where space was very restricted. Two ordinary turnouts would be more typical of a rural or suburban location.

 

As to using it as a terminus, from either direction: fine. Lots of passenger trains terminated at wayside through stations, and they were sometimes stabled on the head shunt or in the yard between services, to free-up the through lines.

 

The way the place was shunted would depend upon how precious line-occupancy was. If it was a quiet place, with very few trains, the rake could be left in the platform while the yard was shunted. In a busy place, the head shunt would probably be made long enough to recess the entire goods train, freeing-up the through lines during shunting. Things like gradient were important too: gradient might be used to achieve gravity-shunting, or it might dictate getting a goods train off the through line so as to minimise the risk of runaway, noting that, before the loco could be detached, it would usually be necessary to pin-down the brakes on at least a few wagons at the "free" end of the rake.

 

Brake vans were left attached to the rake during shunting where practical, to give braking to the train, and to avoid banging them about, but that didn't always make "shunting sense" (quickest means of doing the job) so they were sometimes attached to the loco for the duration.

 

K

Edited by Nearholmer
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Thanks for the reply, I hadn't thought of that, but actually if I make the headshunt longer it would act as a refuge siding.  

 

I think having done some more trouble shooting with the trouble prone Bachmann BR MK1 stock, the derailment problems are down to my track work on the older part of the layout (pre when I brought tracksettas), the area in front of the signal box is a baseboard join.  There were three points in a row, one trailing, two facing that the stock has to cross.  The trailing point joined the curved facing point at the baseboard join...which has a ridge.  

 

I think its either time to can this side of the layout and move to my portable idea (much better as we may move house) or re-work all the track into the terminus.  

 

I think that even though it is a 14ft layout I have crammed far too many points into the station approach and its made harder by being on a curve.  

 

I think the straight through station that I can operate upstairs away from the moisture in the basement may be a better long term idea.

 

See what you think?

 

Best

Dan

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Right, after much studying and deliberation I have started ripping up the old track work.  I have also been considering suggestions and have decided that I will base my new layout on these principles:

 

1) All baseboards will be modular, allowing transportation and should we move house they can be easily moved.  

 

2) All baseboards will be level and point-work will be minimal using trailing points wherever possible.

 

3) The layout will be scale-able so it can be expanded or contracted as required...  

 

4) There will be no cross overs in the station- locos will rely on a pilot loco to pull the ECS away.  Sections will be created which I will control using guitar on off style switches.

 

I have decided that rather than my rubbish plans I will base my layout upon MINORIES and HOLBORN VIADUCT.  It will be modular and I intend to re-produce the station, station throat, then a curved board and then either the goods yard spur or the loco sheds.  If we move to a bigger house all the boards will be assembled either as one long layout or sections divided by curves.  The layout will be urban and set within a cutting as the back drop.  this will minimise scenic work.

 

I know MINORIES as a plan works and so hopefully it will avoid my rubbish layout ideas!

 

I have started on the station throat!

 

Please let me know what you think...

 

 

 

post-22023-0-52954200-1465815085_thumb.jpg

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One thing you might want to consider is adding a loco release crossover between the two platform roads, to allow you to "run round" short trains.

 

This works well for "off peak" services, when having a "turnover" loco is less likely, and for late-evening trains of newspaper vans.

 

Otherwise, Minories is is well-proven to work, and be quite interesting to operate.

 

That baseboard looks good and sturdy!

 

K

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One thing you might want to consider is adding a loco release crossover between the two platform roads, to allow you to "run round" short trains.

 

This works well for "off peak" services, when having a "turnover" loco is less likely, and for late-evening trains of newspaper vans.

 

Otherwise, Minories is is well-proven to work, and be quite interesting to operate.

 

That baseboard looks good and sturdy!

 

K

That's a good call.   I plan to use the peco plastic joiners to create insulated sections that I can control the power to.

 

Yes, hopefully it will be much better than my current non/level (not really planned) warped and impossible to move layout!  I think I have been going wrong before putting points across baseboard joins!!!  

 

Best

Dan

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Definitely I have found that to my cost on all previous layouts (although each has been an improvement).

 

Yes minories and the Holborn viaduct seem to be very good and prototypical? It has some great added aspects in that curves can be hidden and each section opened out like a different piece, or the curves can be set into a cutting, can't wait to build more of it!

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Work Continues....  

 

I have made the second board and am adding track.  It is looking good.

 

I have altered the plan slightly to incorporate a crossover in the station as per the feedback...

 

No what section needs to be built next- 1) The Curve or 2) the loco shed or 3) the goods yard entrance :)

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I have decided to add a head shunt to Platform 3.  

 

I have also realised that the platform board may need an extension piece so that it can accommodate six coach trains!

 

The layout continues to be dismantled in the basement and I have decided that the 'rest of the world will be a sector plate/transverse fiddle yard! 

post-22023-0-39947400-1465920103_thumb.jpg

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If anyone is able to answer these questions I'd be most grateful,

 

1) would it be prototypical for the back of a train to sit that far along the platform? If so would the loco hailing the empty stock be able to take the stock off or would it need to pull into the platform more?

 

2) would a five coach be rake include a buffet car?

 

Best

 

Dan

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imho, for a layout of that length, it would be better to use a four coach train. Halls and Granges hauled four-coach trains to/from Penzance (as an example) and there are probably lots of others, but this is railway modelling and you usually have to compromise somewhere. Four coaches would take up a more right-looking length of the platform, as well as less of the overall layout length.

 

other trains could consist of only two coaches, looking even better as they arrive/depart.

 

remember rule 1. :)

 

edit: also, see this page: http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/lg.jpg

Edited by fender
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Dan

 

Platforms needed to have a 6ft width free of any obstructions in the "classic railway" period, so the bare minimum width for a platform with track either side is about 14ft, to allow for the odd bench and lamppost in the middle. Haven Street station on the IoWSR is about that wide, having been built to "bare standards" by the Southern Railway.

 

The length of the platform needs to allow for as many coaches as you want to use (Minories is classically used with three, I think), plus a loco at each end, with that lot remaining "inside" the starting signal, which itself needs to be set so that a loco waiting at it is generously clear of train movements from adjacent platforms/tracks.

 

The other thing to think about with train lengths is that whatever fits the platform also has to fit in the FY.

 

Minories was really designed for suburban-type operation, with tank engines, and, personally, I think it starts to look a bit odd if it is stretched-out to accommodate main-line trains, because platforms really need to be even wider, to accommodate all the taxis, vans, trolleys etc that attended main line trains "in the old days". But, it's your railway.

 

Kevin

Edited by Nearholmer
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Those are both really good points, I have some time between work tomorrow and so I will widen the platform, I want this layout to be the most prototypical I have made yet!

 

I stupidly sold my 4p tank, 2mt tank and push pull set :(

 

Also stupidly sold my 04 shunter :(

 

I have:

 

Black 5

Ivatt 4mt

Class 24

Class 25

8f

Dmu

 

I have:

 

5 coach rake including buffet

4 coach rake

Ex lms 4 coach rake

3 coach 57ft suburban rake

Parcel train of guv, full brake and ex lms full brake...

 

I guess I am going to need to stick to four coaches with five as an excursion/one off.

 

I think I will need to get:

 

Br 4mt tank

A jinty or small shunter maybe?

 

Keeping the coaching stock to rakes of four will make the fiddle yard easier.. Would a black five have hauled such a small rake?

 

Thank you for your replies

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