Cooper craft - Cautionary notes for customers - Its fate and thoughts on an alternative

[hayfield]

It's not an incorporated business. You can't wind up or liquidate a person. At least not in the terms you are thinking of

 

As a sole trader, the business funds are no different to his own personal funds (although it's good business practice to keep them separate) and any action would need to be against him personally.

 

The only way to get a clearer view would be if we had the Scandinavian model of public tax returns.

 

A person can declare themselves insolvent against their creditors, cannot someone who has a judgement do the same against someone who owes them money

 

I have a friend who was owed money by a person, having won a judgement he was able to take a charge out against the debtors property. As he had a legal charge on the property the debtor could not do a thing without my friends agreement. Needless to say when the debtor needed to either sell or remortgage his property my friend got paid and with interest

 

The last time I saw Coopercraft at a show, two or three years ago, many of the Coopercraft items were like this.  They used to be crisply moulded, the ones I saw had an awful lot of "flash".

 

Do we presume that Dunn has not produced any new injection mouldings of any of the ranges he has purchased, and in every case he is selling old stock?

 

I think that someone with the correct machine and the knowledge of how to use it as Iain has said could make it work, the real question is would enough units be sold?

 

Bill,

 

Anyone in business has a responsibility to ensure that their "customers" receive the product/service they pay for. If they cannot do so they also have a responsibility to ensure that they are NOT taking money illegally ie: from a paywall like this and NOT supplying/producing product.

 

Khris

 

Khris

 

You have hit the nail on the head

 

1   He should be stopped taking money for goods he cannot supply immediately

 

2   Debtors should be repaid from the assets he has. We know he has both the moulds and etched kits, at a general sale these assets have no value, where as in the right hands there is value

 

I would like to think Mr Dunn is reading this and has an attack of conscience, makes arrangements to either repay his creditors or supply goods to the value, before the decision making is taken out of his hands.

 

If someone has the ability to see who owns the property he trades from, it may give those who have court judgements against him the ability to register an interest in the property for the amounts owed.

[Colin_McLeod]

After 57 pages, plus other threads I have not seen one single post from Paul Dunn giving his side of the story. Correct me if I am wrong and have missed it.

[Nile]

Given the number of rocks aimed in his direction I can't see him raising his head above the parapet any time soon.

[stock_2007]

After 57 pages, plus other threads I have not seen one single post from Paul Dunn giving his side of the story. Correct me if I am wrong and have missed it.

What could he say apart from sorry....and by the way Billy your kits in the post.

[Colin_McLeod]

We would all read his statement with interest.

[Andy Y]

He has previously been given the opportunity to respond directly or through me. There has been no response to the email on the 23 Dec (as yet). 

[Gt.Shefford]

A person can declare themselves insolvent against their creditors, cannot someone who has a judgement do the same against someone who owes them money

 

I have a friend who was owed money by a person, having won a judgement he was able to take a charge out against the debtors property. As he had a legal charge on the property the debtor could not do a thing without my friends agreement. Needless to say when the debtor needed to either sell or remortgage his property my friend got paid and with interest

 

 

I think that someone with the correct machine and the knowledge of how to use it as Iain has said could make it work, the real question is would enough units be sold?

 

 

Khris

 

You have hit the nail on the head

 

1   He should be stopped taking money for goods he cannot supply immediately

 

2   Debtors should be repaid from the assets he has. We know he has both the moulds and etched kits, at a general sale these assets have no value, where as in the right hands there is value

 

I would like to think Mr Dunn is reading this and has an attack of conscience, makes arrangements to either repay his creditors or supply goods to the value, before the decision making is taken out of his hands.

 

If someone has the ability to see who owns the property he trades from, it may give those who have court judgements against him the ability to register an interest in the property for the amounts owed.

 

A search on 192.com shows that PD is not the owner of the property

 

jonathan

[hayfield]

A search on 192.com shows that PD is not the owner of the property

 

jonathan

 

 

Shame

[billbedford]

A person can declare themselves insolvent against their creditors, cannot someone who has a judgement do the same against someone who owes them money

 

Yes, but it can't be done with a CCJ, and there is a fairly high minimum debt threshold. 

 

I think that someone with the correct machine and the knowledge of how to use it as Iain has said could make it work, the real question is would enough units be sold?

 

But then you would have to ask questions about why Tony Brown sold the business in the first place.

 

 

1   He should be stopped taking money for goods he cannot supply immediately

 

Really? I presume you have read this thread?

 

2   Debtors should be repaid from the assets he has. We know he has both the moulds and etched kits, at a general sale these assets have no value, where as in the right hands there is value

 

 

Unless, of course, he declares himself bankrupt. Then he can more or less just walk away. Probably the best thing that can happen for all concerned.

Edited December 27, 2017 by billbedford

[hayfield]

Bill

 

I normally agree or support most of what you say, but under no circumstances where he has reportedly stated the machine/tools have broken, should he continue to accept funds for these items. Why not just turn off that part of the website. Or simply refund monies immediately. That's what most of us would do

 

I do accept many reputable businesses take advanced orders for stock, which will exist in the near future. Not only is your comparison way off the mark, but to compare this business with Mr Dunn is in my opinion rather scraping the barrel. I like others cannot understand why you seem to be defending these outrageous business practices.

 

I can as I said earlier understand how Mr Dunn has got into this position, which was clearly outlined in a well thought out and written reply. But there must be a line which must not be crossed, this line seems to have been crossed many months ago, which in this thread has been agreed by all but the odd contributor. If he has an ounce of decency in him, he should face up to these problems and deal with them, certainly accepting further funds for items he cannot supply is totally out of order and must be stopped  

[Brian Indge]

I think that Tony Brown sold the business when he retired due to ill health.

[Ian Kirk]

 

 

But then you would have to ask questions about why Tony Brown sold the business in the first place.

 

 

 

I understand that Tony merely wanted to retire. Similarly Colin Ashby. It is an age thing. I think that we are all around the same age.   Sometimes I think that I would like to retire but when I consider the ultimate fate of my 4mm LNER range I think again. So for my O gauge coach range I soldier on, not making anything new but continuing to supply anyone who wants something from the range. I call it semi retirement.  I don't take credit cards and I don't cash cheques until the goods are posted so I am beholden to no one. (if I had taken payment I would feel under pressure to get the order fulfilled). I find that with age "I don't do pressure anymore". Seven day weeks, targets to meet and obligations to fulfil. That is a young mans game. Been there done that not any more.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

[TheTurfBurner]

A search on 192.com shows that PD is not the owner of the property

 

jonathan

 

Went to www.192.com and looked-up Cooper Craft. The site gave me the opportunity to comment on the business. Guess what I have just done!

 

http://www.192.com/business/details/79b5504e42e981cf036fdcfcfffcd21a2a33c510/ml/

[darren01]

This is on the first page, you can still place orders and money will be taken still on worldpay,Due to some of the Cooper Craft, Mailcoach, Kirk & Slater's have been out of stock due to a problem with my machine, it will be best for you to place your order but not pay for it at that time. I can let you know when back in stock before you pay for it.

 

 I placed an order as a test and there is noway to order without paying up front.

Edited December 27, 2017 by darren01

[hayfield]

This is on the first page, you can still place orders and money will be taken still on worldpay,Due to some of the Cooper Craft, Mailcoach, Kirk & Slater's have been out of stock due to a problem with my machine, it will be best for you to place your order but not pay for it at that time. I can let you know when back in stock before you pay for it.

 

 

Which ones are still available?

[darren01]

Which ones are still available?

Problem is you can not tell what is still available and what is not.

[jjb1970]

I don't cash cheques until the goods are posted so I am beholden to no one. (if I had taken payment I would feel under pressure to get the order fulfilled). I find that with age "I don't do pressure anymore". Seven day weeks, targets to meet and obligations to fulfil. 

 

A very commendable approach.

[Junctionmad]

I've run and owned small businesses with turnover in multiple millions , and small hobby businesses with turnover in the thousands. In all cases where (sometimes reluctantly ) I received advance orders with payment , I made it very clear the order could be cancelled and the funds returned. these are normal business ethics and they apply wtheher you take a pound or a million pounds. Any deviation from that must be specifically and clearly spelt out on an order by order basis , for example cancellation policies.

 

What is being carried on in Coopercrafts case is entirely different and is tantamount to deceiving the customer.

[hayfield]

Problem is you can not tell what is still available and what is not.

 

The answer may be none!!  that was the point I was making, The Coopercraft warning allures to some still being available, a year ago at shows if my memory serves me right it was plastic parts only, no kits

[Porcy Mane]

 Really? I presume you have read this thread?

 

I presume you haven't read this statement.

 

From 14th December:

 

"LSWR GATE STOCK UPDATE - exactly one month (almost to the hour!) after we received the Gate Stock we have now completed processing paid-for pre-orders. The last will leave us tonight and tomorrow, they will of course take a few days to pass through the postal system. We will now move on to paid-for Bulleid diesels! Thanks for your patience!"

 

It may have been a six year wait but the goods have been delivered.

 

From reading through this thread, there is the fundamental difference in that Mr. Dunn continues to take monies when he clearly cannot fulfill his obligations to supply/deliver.

 

P

[Bernard Lamb]

Given the number of rocks aimed in his direction I can't see him raising his head above the parapet any time soon.

 

Rocks?

Pray tell me who is throwing rocks.

People have had problems and are letting other people know of their experiences as a warning to others.

Very public spirited of them in my opinion.

In general this thread does show what an excellent group of fine upstanding citizens inhabit the forum.

A pity there is the odd voice raised against this attitude but there you go. The odd rotten apple can be tolerated I suppose, as long as the message gets home

What about a new club? Done by Dunn, we could get some badges made and the victims could wear them at shows and we could (almost all of us) show them our sympathy..

Bernard

[Crosland]

A search on 192.com shows that PD is not the owner of the property

 

jonathan

 

CCJs or other bad credit data tied to the address may be detrimental to future occupiers should they ever apply for credit.

 

Andrew

[Colin_McLeod]

That should not stop going for a CCJ

[hayfield]

CCJs or other bad credit data tied to the address may be detrimental to future occupiers should they ever apply for credit.

 

Andrew

 

 

Not really as the credit reference agency looks at  dates of occupancy, names etc. I doubt if any buyer runs a credit check on the property they want to buy

 

But if someone is renting a property, why should they worry about the person who is buying it in the future,

 

As for Mr Dunn. He seems uninterested in those who want to buy from him now.

[Enterprisingwestern]

As I have alluded to elsewhere, many threads finish up at the Monty Python level, this one being a perfect re telling of the parrot sketch.

 

Mike.