Cooper craft - Cautionary notes for customers - Its fate and thoughts on an alternative

[Miss Prism]

Now what I find strange is there seems to be a market out there for kits like these, so why hasn't someone else jumped in and started to make new GWR wagons?

 

Parkside was still doing new GWR wagons up till their recent retirement and sale to Peco. But Parkside made their own tools and had their own moulding machine, so costs were kept down. Similarly with Barry Parks at Cambrian, now also retired. The size of the GWR wagon plastic kit market is not large. New diesinking for plastic kits is expensive. I doubt whether runs of under 1000 would now be viable in commercial terms. (1000 is ballpark figure, I haven't done any more precise sums.)

 

The key factor in the commercial viability for Cooper-Craft, Cambrian and Parkside was their ready availability in model shops. (The Saturday afternoon "I'll just have another one of those" impulse buys.)  Those days have gone.

[hayfield]

Parkside was still doing new GWR wagons up till their recent retirement and sale to Peco. But Parkside made their own tools and had their own moulding machine, so costs were kept down. Similarly with Barry Parks at Cambrian, now also retired. The size of the GWR wagon plastic kit market is not large. New diesinking for plastic kits is expensive. I doubt whether runs of under 1000 would now be viable in commercial terms. (1000 is ballpark figure, I haven't done any more precise sums.)

 

The key factor in the commercial viability for Cooper-Craft, Cambrian and Parkside was their ready availability in model shops. (The Saturday afternoon "I'll just have another one of those" impulse buys.)  Those days have gone.

 

But with Peco owning Parkside, perhaps availability may be greater within retail outlets creating a new demand for plastic wagon kits

[hayfield]

Setup costs, especially for long items such as coach sides and roofs are huge. I've heard £50k mentioned for a coach kit - not sure how true that is though.

 

edit: sorry this was in response to Clive's post. I'm not familiar with modern techniques.

 

I was told by a chap who owns a company producing plastic mouldings that moulds can be made in the far east at a fraction of the cost in the UK. not just wages reducing the prices, but modern computer controlled machines that cut the moulds. Peco wrote an article in Railway Modeller about their investments in both CAD and computer controlled mould making machinery.

 

Then in a few years we all may have high quality 3D printers at home, times are a changing

[Bucoops]

I was told by a chap who owns a company producing plastic mouldings that moulds can be made in the far east at a fraction of the cost in the UK. not just wages reducing the prices, but modern computer controlled machines that cut the moulds. Peco wrote an article in Railway Modeller about their investments in both CAD and computer controlled mould making machinery.

 

Then in a few years we all may have high quality 3D printers at home, times are a changing

 

Absolutely - although getting it right can take an awful lot of to-ing and fro-ing. I note from the Little Loco Company that they gave up getting stuff manufactured abroad because of the hassle.

 

I wonder what Peco spent getting their kit? They should look at doing Gresley coaches

[Willie Whizz]

...

 

Quite simply put, the fact that in the first post there was a suggestion to scan a companies products so that they would not be lost for future production mean that the intention is there to infringe upon a companies products. If CC wanted to burn the lot on the 5th of November then he's at liberty to do so, and if he wanted to he could pursue anyone who had copied his products.

 

....

I had to laugh at this, even though I suppose technically it's correct.

 

If anyone should know how useless the Law can be unless the aggrieved party has both a watertight case and bottomless pockets, it would be ... you know who.

 

Go ahead, I'm tempted to say - and see how the bu%%er likes it!!!

[Colin_McLeod]

And Copyright????

He can be paid for copyright when all customers either get their kit or their refund. lol. Seriously ignoring copyright it is a good idea to privately scan the kits for future use after Coopercraft goes out of business.

[Bernard Lamb]

I was told by a chap who owns a company producing plastic mouldings that moulds can be made in the far east at a fraction of the cost in the UK. not just wages reducing the prices, but modern computer controlled machines that cut the moulds. Peco wrote an article in Railway Modeller about their investments in both CAD and computer controlled mould making machinery.

 

Then in a few years we all may have high quality 3D printers at home, times are a changing

The motor trade has been doing that for many a long year.

When was the Vauxhall Frontera introduced? That is the first example that I came across. Middle East in that case but the business soon moved much further east.

We need to be able to get 3D metal printing at a much cheaper rate before the home production of locomotives is possible and I don't think that is just around the corner.

Bernard

[hayfield]

The motor trade has been doing that for many a long year.

When was the Vauxhall Frontera introduced? That is the first example that I came across. Middle East in that case but the business soon moved much further east.

We need to be able to get 3D metal printing at a much cheaper rate before the home production of locomotives is possible and I don't think that is just around the corner.

Bernard

 

Bernard

 

Quite agree with you about both the price of the machines getting much cheaper and the print quality improving, but go back 20 years and how big (and expensive) were photo copiers, 15 years ago scanners were self contained and expensive and what ever happened to fax machines

 

The little thing under my computer does all, even in colour and for about £30

 

10 years ago my golfing buddy who is a jeweller pain over £20,000 for a 3D wax printer, and took several house to print off the items (several were done at the same time. It revolutionised his business and quickly paid for itself quickly. 5 to 10 years time we will have far cheaper hobby style machines making parts in easy to use machines

[Jol Wilkinson]

Bernard

 

Quite agree with you about both the price of the machines getting much cheaper and the print quality improving, but go back 20 years and how big (and expensive) were photo copiers, 15 years ago scanners were self contained and expensive and what ever happened to fax machines

 

The little thing under my computer does all, even in colour and for about £30

 

10 years ago my golfing buddy who is a jeweller pain over £20,000 for a 3D wax printer, and took several house to print off the items (several were done at the same time. It revolutionised his business and quickly paid for itself quickly. 5 to 10 years time we will have far cheaper hobby style machines making parts in easy to use machines

 

John,

 

no doubt prices will continue to fall but perhaps take up will be more limited than pc printer/scanners as most households won't perceive the need for a 3D printer.

 

Of course that  may change as today's school children become house owners/renters and when inexpensive 3D scanners or simpler design software"apps" are available. Then it will depend on what people will want to print for their household needs. Currently 3D printing, outside the industrial or military spheres seems to be used mainly by people with "constructive" hobbies such as model making.

 

Jol

[billbedford]

10 years ago my golfing buddy who is a jeweller pain over £20,000 for a 3D wax printer, and took several house to print off the items (several were done at the same time. It revolutionised his business and quickly paid for itself quickly. 5 to 10 years time we will have far cheaper hobby style machines making parts in easy to use machines

 

 

Your jeweller friend will still be paying £20-30,000 for a suitable 3D wax printer in 10 years time, though the future machines may have a much better spec. Whether we will ever have cheaper machines with a good enough spec for our hobby is an altogether more complex and difficult proposition.

[billbedford]

Currently 3D printing, outside the industrial or military spheres seems to be used mainly by people with "constructive" hobbies such as model making.

 

... and of course jewellers and dentists....

[Enterprisingwestern]

I think you're right there. I'll find the ignore button for my own sanity & blood pressure.

 

 

You have no need to apologise. We all make statements and posts that initiate other discussion and this was one. Everyone  has different opinions, just depends how open you are to them, or not.

 

I've said before that the ranges have effectively gone, you can't purchase a lot of them and no doubt the moulds are beyond recovery  for those not used for some years, if they've not been stored correctly. Better to look to other suppliers or make your own/get together with others. 

 

Apologies to those members who didn't want to read the exchanges above.

 

I see the ignore button lasted 9 minutes!!

 

Mike.

[Bernard Lamb]

Bernard

 

Quite agree with you about both the price of the machines getting much cheaper and the print quality improving, but go back 20 years and how big (and expensive) were photo copiers, 15 years ago scanners were self contained and expensive and what ever happened to fax machines

 

The little thing under my computer does all, even in colour and for about £30

 

10 years ago my golfing buddy who is a jeweller pain over £20,000 for a 3D wax printer, and took several house to print off the items (several were done at the same time. It revolutionised his business and quickly paid for itself quickly. 5 to 10 years time we will have far cheaper hobby style machines making parts in easy to use machines

John

They may well get better and cheaper using plastic. The point I made was about the use of metal.

That will be the real break through and I see no sign of it happening soon.

The last time I asked, a machine was around the 1/4 million mark.

That is not going to come down to a grand in a short time scale. As Jol points out, what is the real demand?

I do not see any one prepared to take the risk outside of the two quoted examples of chucking money into a development programme.

Bernard

[chris p bacon]

I see the ignore button lasted 9 minutes!!

 

Mike.

 

A person not the topic.

[hayfield]

John

They may well get better and cheaper using plastic. The point I made was about the use of metal.

That will be the real break through and I see no sign of it happening soon.

The last time I asked, a machine was around the 1/4 million mark.

That is not going to come down to a grand in a short time scale. As Jol points out, what is the real demand?

I do not see any one prepared to take the risk outside of the two quoted examples of chucking money into a development programme.

Bernard

 

Sorry thought you were talking about the plastic ones, I have seen on TV a form of plastic which conducts electrical current, guess has enough metal dust mixed in with it, plus there is that new material they are trying to find an economic use for

[TheTurfBurner]

At the risk of bringing this back on topic, Citizens Advice Consumer Service have responded this morning. They advise: "We will notify Trading Standards and the case details will also be placed on a central database that can be accessed by all other Local Authority Trading Standards Services throughout the UK.

 

Although we work closely with Trading Standards departments, we are a separate organisation. Individual complaints do not necessarily lead to immediate enforcement action as, sometimes, numerous complaints are needed before effective action can take place.  The information is, however, valuable intelligence for Trading Standards Services and other Government departments. Trading Standards will only contact you if they need further information or feel they could be of further assistance. We cannot make any commitment that Trading Standards will definitely contact you."

 

​The important comment here is "numerous complaints are needed before effective action can take place". Rather than reading about Ian Kirk kits or the complexities of copyright law, I would much prefer to see someone else indicating they have taken action against Dunn. Or am I ploughing a lone furrow here in my efforts to get an allegedly dishonest trader off the web?

[Bucoops]

Would it need to be the trading standards local to Coopercraft or the (attempted!) buyer?

[TheTurfBurner]

Would it need to be the trading standards local to Coopercraft or the (attempted!) buyer?

 

A consumer cannot contact Trading Standards direct, but must go through Citizens Advice Consumer Service. It's a very simple process using an on-line form which can be found: https://ssl.datamotion.com/form.aspx?co=3438&frm=general&to=flare.fromforms

[Steamport Southport]

 

  Or am I ploughing a lone furrow here in my efforts to get an allegedly dishonest trader off the web?

 

The problem is many of us who are regularly on here had seen the problems happening before our eyes and therefore didn't place orders as we knew they wouldn't be honoured.

 

 

 

Jason

[TheTurfBurner]

The problem is many of us who are regularly on here had seen the problems happening before our eyes and therefore didn't place orders as we knew they wouldn't be honoured.

 

 

 

Jason

A valid point, Jason. But if the folks on here who have lost money with Dunn all contacted Trading Standards, they would have more than enough complaints to take action. One complaint - they do nothing. Ten complaints - they may act.

[Andrew Emery]

Just to mention, I am the latest victim of this man Paul Dunn's ongoing scam. He took money from me for models he admits he neither has nor can produce, and will not refund it. I have spoken to him in person, and he is quite blatent. His phone number is 01823 461961.

[Covkid]

The key factor in the commercial viability for Cooper-Craft, Cambrian and Parkside was their ready availability in model shops. (The Saturday afternoon "I'll just have another one of those" impulse buys.)  Those days have gone.

 

Absolutely right "Miss P".  That is why I have several boxes full of kits for a long winter night !!!

[Ravenser]

In the middle of all this we have some modellers who are morning the potential or is it real demise of this range. Now what I find strange is there seems to be a market out there for kits like these, so why hasn't someone else jumped in and started to make new GWR wagons? LNER coaches?

 

This post does not take away the other very serious theme running through this thread of those who have been left out of pocket due to the reported lack of action by the owner of Coppercraft when he receives money from our fellow modellers. 

 

There's someone who's currently doing 3D printing of  LNER panelled teak coaches. . He's been at the last 2 CMRA workshops at Watford. I think you get half sides and ends , and assembly is necessary - this is not "print a complete bodyshell"

 

Someone will be able to supply the name/ contact details.

 

That strikes me as a sensible route to the more specialist diagrams, and since the CAD file could be adjusted at any time, it ought to be possible to ensure

accuracy.

 

Hornby have ripped the core out of the 4mm LNER coach kit market. A decade or so ago the only 4mm RTR LNER coaches were Bachmann's rather basic Thompsons. Hornby have delivered Gresley corridor teaks, and Gresley and Thompson non-corridor stock - that takes away the market for most bread and butter types, so you're down to the specialist stock - diners , sleepers, less common versions. I have a Kirk 51' non-gangwayed full brake for the "steam period" , because the only platform on Blacklade with access to a run round loop will just handle 2 x 50' vans and a 31 without fouling the points. And while an L1 is shorter, two 4-wheel parcels vans in place of a bogie van take up the slack. In other words, it's a specialist requirement and most folk will happily buy the Hornby 61' Gresley BG , which lasted to about 1980 anyway.(And someone has done the Tourist stock in metal, and I'm sure it's easier to build than the wretched Coopercraft kit I've been fighting)

 

If you insist on GE Section 51' corridor coaches - you still need Kirk. If you want a Quad-Artic, or a Quint-Artic - you now have a problem , until someone comes up with a RTR model or a new kit, - and either route might cost you £300. The Push-pull driving trailer is a gap. But none of this is easy volume sales .

 

The key Coopercraft wagon losses are a van and an open I think. To be honest, that is something Peco could add to the Parkside range in 18 months time once Coopercraft is finally buried.

 

At the moment the biggest commercial opportunity for kit manufactures is suitable companion stock for the Rapido Stirling Single. There is photographic evidence, sort of,  for "modern" bogie stock - Ludlam's East Lincolnshire Railway has a fine shot of an Ivatt 4-2-2  265 leaving Boston with modern bogie stock behind (5 compt ?Gresley brake leading, and a clerestory as the third vehicle) and a 2-4-0 with three clerestory 12 wheelers at Grand Sluice , but the actual shots of Stirling Singles show flat-roofed 6 wheelers behind them (The E Lincs line expresses was the last stand of the GN singles)

 

A GN 6-wheeler or two of types that survived in Engineers' stock into the 1950s seems the best bet - I don't know if there will be another run of Bill Bedford's expensive but high quality Howldon bogies

Edited November 26, 2017 by Ravenser

[County of Yorkshire]

He took money from me for models he admits he neither has nor can produce, and will not refund it. I have spoken to him in person, and he is quite blatent. 

 

Outrageous. And the authorities cannot do anything against such blatant fraud? What a fetid society this is sometimes. 

 

CoY

[jjb1970]

In all serious, where does a consumer rights issue end and fraud begin? This is much more sinister than an amateur being way out of his depth.