Cooper craft - Cautionary notes for customers - Its fate and thoughts on an alternative

[Andy Y]

The represents about half his yearly bill for his website.

That's a quite remarkable nugget of information Bill. Remarkable because it is (allegedly) pure guesswork or you have a closer knowledge of Cooper Craft's trading activity than most of us would have assumed, the reasons for which I am currently pondering.

[billbedford]

You may be strictly correct (or not) - but denying bailiffs access to execute a court order doesn't suggest that he is anxious to fulfil his obligations to those who he may 'unwittingly' have induced to make payments to him.

Everyone has right to refuse entry to bailiffs, an unless a person has ready cash it is the best advice that can be given.

 

Bill - you really aren't convincing anyone, but you are attracting antagonism that can do your own business no good whatsoever.

 

 That's the problem of this place, it acts so much like a sounding board for a few people's prejudices that they forget that it has no relevance in the real world.

[jjb1970]

If he's paying £2k a year or thereabouts for his website then he can shut it down, use the £2k saved to return money to customers and he is relieved of a website we're told he can't control and takes money against his wishes. Talk about a win-win, there you go, I've suggested a course of action that could go some way to putting things right.

[Andy Y]

 That's the problem of this place, it acts so much like a sounding board for a few people's prejudices that they forget that it has no relevance in the real world.

In your opinion.

 

I'd happily say that it's very relevant indeed Bill in this case and several people wish they had seen this and other topics before suffering loss and aggravation. I really am perplexed why you are taking the standpoint that you are and that you, given your business, are happy to defend or offer mitigation of what, by the body of evidence, is unethical and inexcusable.

[Clive Mortimore]

 

He is not the only trader to have a zombie website that, allegedly, can't be updated. So the line that 'he is still taking money so it must be fraud' does not necessarily hold up.

 

 

That's the point. No-one here knows the state of his finances, nor even that he is receiving monies from the website. People are just making wild guesses based on how aggrieved they feel.

Money is leaving customers accounts which they believe is going to his account/business account, now if there was a problem with the intermediator, that is Wordpay or his website host, I am sure that would be the excuse given. I know if I had several telephone calls, "Where is my order?" and I hadn't received them I would first look to see if there was a problem as I would be losing business.The money is going somewhere.

 

I was a sole trader and I still have to submit my self assessment tax return up when I retired showing where I have money coming in and money going out. How is Mr Dunn going to show he is earning from the sale of his kits if he isn't selling many?

 

If I was having problems with the manufacture of the items I was trying to sell and had a kind offer like Mr Kirk has made, I would have the front door open and the kettle on waiting for him.

Edited December 23, 2017 by Clive Mortimore

[Horsetan]

In your opinion.

I'd happily say that it's very relevant indeed Bill in this case and several people wish they had seen this and other topics before suffering loss and aggravation. I really am perplexed why you are taking the standpoint that you are and that you, given your business, are happy to defend or offer mitigation of what, by the body of evidence, is unethical and inexcusable.

Don't be perplexed. Bill's thought processes are different to most people. They don't necessarily come with instructions either.....

[Bernard Lamb]

Everyone has right to refuse entry to bailiffs, an unless a person has ready cash it is the best advice that can be given.

 

 

 That's the problem of this place, it acts so much like a sounding board for a few people's prejudices that they forget that it has no relevance in the real world.

That might well be the case.

However most people that I know would regard such a course of action as being worse than that which created the original situation.

I am sure that the vast majority of people would use words to describe such people that can not be used on here. I also reckon that giving out such advice will not gain you many friends.

I regard his action as antisocial and totally not how any body should act in a so called civilised society. 

As for the second point, it is rather more than a few people from what I see and hear.

Unfortunately there are  few rotten apples around and society has to find an acceptable way of dealing with them.

In view of his actions can you suggest a way of helping his victims?

How about a scheme like they have in other areas of business where they have funds set up to compensate victims ?

Would you be prepared to contribute?

Bernard

[Bucoops]

You were warned that this was likely to happen to choose to ignore the warnings.

 

 

You are making assumptions here. I do not know whether he is still taking money, or what his financial situation is, and neither do you and neither do any of the others who have been pontificating on this thread.

 

 

 

I think that if I were to have any concerns about the future reputation of a business that bore my name, I wouldn't sell it. 

 

His website was certainly taking money in July:

 

 

And it would seem I am one of the lucky ones - it "only" took 3 months of requesting to get it back:

 

[Anotheran]

Unfortunately, for me, not for Mr Dunn, I didn't see this thread until very recently. I placed an order on 10th March for 3 four plank wagons. I called Mr Dunn, though I didn't know his name at that point, on 10th June to chase them up. He told me about the warning on the home page, that I had not seen as I'd gone straight to the product page from a search, and that he was having problems with the chassis and expected to be able to ship in about three months. It is now six months later. I have emailed and phoned with no further response.

 

The amount is not large, just over £20, but that is not the point. From the experience of others in this thread I now know that I have been duped. He may have got into a mess by simply getting over his head. But now he is knowingly taking money while knowing he will not fulfil the orders. Whether he knows that is against the law is not relevant. Ignorance is not a defence, particularly when the moral position is so clear. I don't understand those defending his continuing actions unless they too have similar business morals.

 

So I will continue to push to try to get through to Mr Dunn. But, having read this thread, with little hope of seeing my money back, and even less of seeing the kits (which I would prefer). I will continue to support small suppliers where I can, but will in future read existing threads and make my assessments of their business practices and business morals before I part with my money.

 

Kind but rather resigned regards, Neil

[jjb1970]

Unfortunately, for me, not for Mr Dunn, I didn't see this thread until very recently. I placed an order on 10th March for 3 four plank wagons. I called Mr Dunn, though I didn't know his name at that point, on 10th June to chase them up. He told me about the warning on the home page, that I had not seen as I'd gone straight to the product page from a search, and that he was having problems with the chassis and expected to be able to ship in about three months. It is now six months later. I have emailed and phoned with no further response.

 

 

 

The underlined bit is where it stops being tenable to write it all off as some sort of misunderstanding or just a decent fellow in out of his depth. 

[stock_2007]

Unfortunately, for me, not for Mr Dunn, I didn't see this thread until very recently. I placed an order on 10th March for 3 four plank wagons. I called Mr Dunn, though I didn't know his name at that point, on 10th June to chase them up. He told me about the warning on the home page, that I had not seen as I'd gone straight to the product page from a search, and that he was having problems with the chassis and expected to be able to ship in about three months. It is now six months later. I have emailed and phoned with no further response.

 

The amount is not large, just over £20, but that is not the point. From the experience of others in this thread I now know that I have been duped. He may have got into a mess by simply getting over his head. But now he is knowingly taking money while knowing he will not fulfil the orders. Whether he knows that is against the law is not relevant. Ignorance is not a defence, particularly when the moral position is so clear. I don't understand those defending his continuing actions unless they too have similar business morals.

 

So I will continue to push to try to get through to Mr Dunn. But, having read this thread, with little hope of seeing my money back, and even less of seeing the kits (which I would prefer). I will continue to support small suppliers where I can, but will in future read existing threads and make my assessments of their business practices and business morals before I part with my money.

 

Kind but rather resigned regards, Neil

Like you the amount I've lost is not large, but I've phoned and e-mailed without any answer that's what get's me it's almost as if he's just having a laugh

[TheTurfBurner]

Like you the amount I've lost is not large, but I've phoned and e-mailed without any answer that's what get's me it's almost as if he's just having a laugh

Please - report Dunn to Trading Standards using: https://ssl.datamotion.com/form.aspx?co=3438&frm=general&to=flare.fromforms

 

And also TrustPilot at :https://www.trustpilot.com/review/www.cooper-craft.co.uk

 

It will only take a few minutes - perhaps while the turkey is cooking - but the more complaints to Trading Standards, the better the chances they will take action to close this rogue trader down. 

[billbedford]

I agree to a certain extent with you that to produce something it's good to know the demand, but I noted in a previous comment by Bill that he hadn't chased small amounts but might think again if it was a £1000. 

With near 100 kits 'in preparation' and some never to be produced the £1000 Bill said "would make him think differently" is here, but the other way round as he holds it.   

 

 

I've answered this in it's own thread

[gismorail]

Just as a matter of interest does anyone know which shows this character Dunn is next attending in the coming year , maybe the people who are owed money should attend and confront the guy in public. 

 

With regard to the business having any accounts or even completing a self assessment tax form would you expect someone who trades in this manner to worry about details like that !!!

[Dava]

For the sake of 'goodwill to all men', could this interminable thread please be rested at least over the festive season, or until there is real news in the case of 'Dunn v. RmWeb Grumperati'?

 

Seasons greetings and hope you receive what you desire in your stockings [if you're wearing them]

 

Dava

[Colin_McLeod]

Bah Humbug.

 

[pedant mode] The case would be RMweb****** v Dunn. [/pedant mode]

 

Seasons greetings are nice (see my earlier post) but since Dunn has not entered into the spirit himself by doing the right thing then it is unlikely that this thread will go silent.

 

But I am thankful that at least you did not call for the thread to be locked.

 

Merry Christmas everyone.

Edited December 24, 2017 by Colin_McLeod

[Andrew F]

Maybe Dunn fits in with the Christmas spirit of things. He does appear to be quite a Dickensian character.

 

Have a lovely Christmas.folks.

[Andy Y]

For the sake of 'goodwill to all men', could this interminable thread please be rested at least over the festive season, or until there is real news in the case of 'Dunn v. RmWeb Grumperati'?

 

Seasons greetings and hope you receive what you desire in your stockings [if you're wearing them]

 

Nope; it's panto season.

 

He's behind you!

[David Stannard]

I have very fond memories of the Coopercraft kits that I purchased nearly 30 years ago, the detail and quality was far above any of the other plastic kits that were available at the time, their nice crisp moulds that went together with ease not to mention that they were easy to modify. I would have purchased at least 30 of the wagon kits and kitbashed a decent number of them into a variety of diagrams, I still have one unbuilt V4 kit in my to do box, I also quite liked their detail parts and vehicles which I also have some of.

 

The current status is rather sad but I don't think the rampant serving of vitriol is going to improve the situation, in fact I think it will make the current owner of the moulds less inclined to get the business up and running again given that his reputation has been so badly tarnished. Just think if he was to some how miraculously resolve the issues with his equipment and start pumping out kits like there was no tomorrow how many people would be willing to do business with him given whats been said and done, certainly some of the blame needs to be proportioned to him but I don't think some of the comments made here have helped the situation either.

[Steamport Southport]

I have very fond memories of the Coopercraft kits that I purchased nearly 30 years ago, the detail and quality was far above any of the other plastic kits that were available at the time, their nice crisp moulds that went together with ease not to mention that they were easy to modify. I would have purchased at least 30 of the wagon kits and kitbashed a decent number of them into a variety of diagrams, I still have one unbuilt V4 kit in my to do box, I also quite liked their detail parts and vehicles which I also have some of.

 

The current status is rather sad but I don't think the rampant serving of vitriol is going to improve the situation, in fact I think it will make the current owner of the moulds less inclined to get the business up and running again given that his reputation has been so badly tarnished. Just think if he was to some how miraculously resolve the issues with his equipment and start pumping out kits like there was no tomorrow how many people would be willing to do business with him given whats been said and done, certainly some of the blame needs to be proportioned to him but I don't think some of the comments made here have helped the situation either.

 

People can be pretty forgiving. If not, no one would fly Easy Jet or Ryan Air after being let down on numerous occasions. But we still fly with them. People just want the goods they have paid for or a refund.

 

If by some miracle a load of Coopercraft and Kirk kits suddenly appeared at an exhibition or in a shop, would I buy them? Of course I would. I just wouldn't use his website.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[chris p bacon]

The current status is rather sad but I don't think the rampant serving of vitriol is going to improve the situation, in fact I think it will make the current owner of the moulds less inclined to get the business up and running again given that his reputation has been so badly tarnished. Just think if he was to some how miraculously resolve the issues with his equipment and start pumping out kits like there was no tomorrow how many people would be willing to do business with him given whats been said and done, certainly some of the blame needs to be proportioned to him but I don't think some of the comments made here have helped the situation either.

 

Just some of the blame ?

 

So what part of the blame belongs to the customer ? not getting his moulding machine working? taking monies and not supplying goods ? not responding ?

 

Never ceases to amaze me that some seem to think that someone out of their depth and unable to make something work, is somehow the full of others.

 

As for miraculously restarting, I think you've more chance of a virgin birth in Essex.

[David Stannard]

Just some of the blame ?

 

So what part of the blame belongs to the customer ? not getting his moulding machine working? taking monies and not supplying goods ? not responding ?

 

Never ceases to amaze me that some seem to think that someone out of their depth and unable to make something work, is somehow the full of others.

 

As for miraculously restarting, I think you've more chance of a virgin birth in Essex.

My point is that all the bitching and gripping about it is not going to improve the situation if anything it will only make it worse, also I never absolved the current owner of any fault made on his part, maybe if some people had looked at the website and saw the notes pertaining to not making payments it would have solved a big part of the problem.

[chris p bacon]

My point is that all the bitching and gripping about it is not going to improve the situation if anything it will only make it worse, also I never absolved the current owner of any fault made on his part, maybe if some people had looked at the website and saw the notes pertaining to not making payments it would have solved a big part of the problem.

 

You've obviously commented without reading the thread.

 

You can order from the site with a simple Google search that brings up the relevant page and bypasses the page with a warning.  But even then, the fact that he receives an order and the the monies does not trigger him into contact to return the monies and explain. And if you doubt that he actually gets the order and monies then why has he returned some but not others.

 

 

I would also add it's not "bitching and griping" it's someone not trading as they should and being fraudulent.

 

You can't defend the undefendable.

[David Stannard]

You've obviously commented without reading the thread.

 

You can order from the site with a simple Google search that brings up the relevant page and bypasses the page with a warning.  But even then, the fact that he receives an order and the the monies does not trigger him into contact to return the monies and explain. And if you doubt that he actually gets the order and monies then why has he returned some but not others.

 

 

I would also add it's not "bitching and griping" it's someone not trading as they should and being fraudulent.

 

You can't defend the undefendable.

 

Maybe you assume too much, I have actually read the whole sad and sorry thread as I have already stated I am a big fan of the Coopercraft range and I wanted to see what is going on, I had inquired about what was happening with them late last year when I made a phone call to Holt Model Railways regarding an order I placed with them for some other items. Speaking of which what has happened to them as their website seems to be on the blink and I can't access their catalogue, or will they be the next vendor to have a vitriolic diatribe ascribed to them, mind you I got good service from them.

[Colin_McLeod]

I did not see any vitriolic postings against Dunn. However I have seen some pretty questionable postings that appear to be defending Dunn. If those posters are charging for this service I wonder if they will get paid.

Edited December 24, 2017 by Colin_McLeod