Edwardian Posted December 30, 2016 Author Share Posted December 30, 2016 I disagree. If a supplier fails, then this makes it possible for others to come in with updated products. While Coopercraft are still advertising their ranges, other manufacturers will be reluctant to invest in replacements. I might agree if I could get MR 6-wheel Clayton with injection moulded body, and everything necessary to complete for £30.00 from someone else. Any alternative is likely to be more expensive and/or of a material that will either require much more work to obtain an equivalent finish, and/or involve more advanced skills, and/or be incomplete. Generally I am finding this new generation of products simply far, far, too expensive. If that is the future of kits, my modelling truly is done for. I have no argument with the prices on the Coopercraft website, they compare very favourably what is being asked for brass, and especially, 3D printed or resin alternatives, even assuming a direct equivalent is available. I believe, therefore, that there is still a place and a market for such ranges as Coopercraft, Kirk and Slaters. Where I do agree is that it is unhelpful to advertise products that you do not, and probably never will, produce. Whatever the practical difficulties faced by this manufacturer, the misleading website, the taking of money and failure to supply product, the complete and total failure to communicate with potential customers, has turned Coopercraft into a PR disaster - what value the goodwill of the brand now? The fate of these ranges is bound to remain a matter of concern where no effective communication from the manufacturer is forthcoming. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted December 30, 2016 Author Share Posted December 30, 2016 I'd have thought, Bill, based on the comments on this thread and the SLaters topligjt thread, that a GWR toplight to the quality of your recent GNR coaches would be a good seller. As a designer and manufacturer, what sort of numbers do you need to be getting to justify the investment? David I'd agree, but there is no way I can afford £80 a pop. The Howlden coaches look really excellent. I'd love some. Clearly there are enough wealthy people out there for a batch of these kits to have sold out. Yet, there must be others like me who could not seriously contemplate such prices. Coopercraft lists Slaters GW Clerestories at £44, Slaters GW Toplights at £45 and Blacksmith/Mallard GW Toplights at £50. How much would a Mousa GW Toplight be? £80? £90? Fortunately I have enough GW 57' Toplights, and I dread to think what a 70' Toplight would cost in resin. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sp1 Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 Good point. I believe there was a coterie of potential helpers, though they didn't pursue anything after their initial contact with me. Possibly nothing came of it, or, possibly, I was deemed too forthright on the subject, in any case, I see no evidence that anything has changed for the better, so it is tempting to conclude that the owner would not accept help or could not agree sensible terms with those apparently willing to help him. True, I gathered around 10 bods who were interested in forming a support group. Detailed terms were never discussed because I was given information that caused me to withdraw. I will not be saying more about it here but if any of those 10 wants a private chat you need to seem at an exhibition. That's very interesting.I recall being 'shouted down' when I suggested a group of us get together (much earlier in the thread) when a price for a moulding machine was suggested- my idea was a group of us give xxx amount in return for xxx amount of kits. (And I would have taken quite a few.....). Sadly, I think the various ranges now in the Coopercraft range have gone..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted December 30, 2016 Author Share Posted December 30, 2016 Presumably the outcome of your missive was a refund? Having made a number of attempts to contact Coopercraft, in order to establish what might be available and when, and having been ignored every single time, I decided that there was simply no point in attempting to order anything. No, I mean, in general I have found that people can be encouraged to do the right thing by means of pre-action correspondence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 I might agree if I could get MR 6-wheel Clayton with injection moulded body, and everything necessary to complete for £30.00 from someone else. Any alternative is likely to be more expensive and/or of a material that will either require much more work to obtain an equivalent finish, and/or involve more advanced skills, and/or be incomplete. Generally I am finding this new generation of products simply far, far, too expensive. If that is the future of kits, my modelling truly is done for. I have no argument with the prices on the Coopercraft website, they compare very favourably what is being asked for brass, and especially, 3D printed or resin alternatives, even assuming a direct equivalent is available. I believe, therefore, that there is still a place and a market for such ranges as Coopercraft, Kirk and Slaters. I think the big question there is whether there would be a substantial price increase if they were actually available? Are these just very out of date prices, that haven't been updated because the products aren't available? If so, that makes it even less likely that someone else will produce new kits for these items, as many people will compare the price with Coopercraft and not buy them because they appear to be a rip off, even if they are actually cheaper than the current Coopercraft price would be. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 Here we go again. We should all know the situation by now. Give it a rest and get on with life. Peace and goodwill to all men and all that at this time of year. Bernard I agree to a certain extent, but the problem hasn't gone away, and there are some very useful kits advertised but not available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted December 30, 2016 Author Share Posted December 30, 2016 I think the big question there is whether there would be a substantial price increase if they were actually available? Are these just very out of date prices, that haven't been updated because the products aren't available? If so, that makes it even less likely that someone else will produce new kits for these items, as many people will compare the price with Coopercraft and not buy them because they appear to be a rip off, even if they are actually cheaper than the current Coopercraft price would be. Fair point. Probably not that far off Mousa's etched brass 6-wheelers. I am, however, rather a Wuss when it comes to etched brass kits! Perhaps I need to evolve! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 I think the big question there is whether there would be a substantial price increase if they were actually available? Are these just very out of date prices, that haven't been updated because the products aren't available? If so, that makes it even less likely that someone else will produce new kits for these items, as many people will compare the price with Coopercraft and not buy them because they appear to be a rip off, even if they are actually cheaper than the current Coopercraft price would be. None of the other similar ranges of plastic kit have had any significant price rises in the last few years. Cambrian kits are mostly in the £4 - £8 price range without wheels. Parkside Dundas are around £8 - £10 with metal wheels. Some larger models cost a bit more, but not substantially. Jason 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 Why don't the ten of you who sort of showed interest in 'helping' Coopercraft', get together and help yourself? After all, there is nothing much left of Coopercraft, other than disappointment - no useful moulds, castings, machinery., or goodwill. Plenty of folk will be able to tell you what to do, prices to charge, etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 no useful moulds As I understand it, the moulds are usable, but they need a proper bolster to run on. (And a machine that can run the bolster of course.) Colin Brown always found the CC moulds a bit temperamental, but once they got running, he just left his machine on, pumping them out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted December 30, 2016 Author Share Posted December 30, 2016 So, there is the possibility of producing the range! All we need now is some money, a business plan and a race horse's head (in case negotiations break down) Don't look at me, I'm broke. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 ....All we need now is ... a racehorse's head (in case negotiations break down) You can leave my horse out of it....and anyway, he's an Irish Draught. Don't look at me, I'm broke. You won't be in the market at Rapido prices, then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meil Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 So, there is the possibility of producing the range! All we need now is some money, a business plan and a race horse's head (in case negotiations break down) Don't look at me, I'm broke. Before getting your hopes up I suggest you find out where the actual moulds are located and who has control of them first. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Kirk Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 Hi, Somewhere along the way there seems to have been produced a new website (dated 2016) this repeats the 2008 statement that " all the machines are now up and running" and does not seem to have the statement about only paying for stuff which is available. In reply to something someone said earlier about the possible problem of machines from Slaters being old and or the cost of new moulding machines being prohibitive. Moulding Machines, like anything else can be damaged by incompetence or misuse but given proper maintenance and a source of spare parts can go on and on. I still have my first 250PRT Gnat (built 1981) and I still run it from time to time. Second hand machines are not expensive and even in good working order are nowadays only worth scrap value (most of this kind of work is now done overseas) a few years ago I got three for £500. Problem is you need the right machine for the job and more importantly know what you are doing. People still contact me from time to time about my old 4mm coach range and although I have had nothing to do with it for 20+ years it still bears my name and I feel somewhat responsible. The new website seems to indicate that all is well and the whole range is listed, seemingly therefore available. I intend therefore to place an order for one of my old coaches, pay for it if requested and wait and see. I will report back here. best wishes, Ian 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spitfire2865 Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 Before getting your hopes up I suggest you find out where the actual moulds are located and who has control of them first. Fair point. Some molding companies keep full rights to their products, and sometimes keep them very much industry secrets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 Not sure about new web site. Still the photo of not his factory, exhibitions listed for 2014, same message wrt broken machine. fwiw, I think he may be 'concentrating' on etched brass stuff - no real expense in making moulds for whitemetal/brass/plastic. Just invest a bit of time to do drawings, (or buy in) and a relatively small up-front fee for artwork. Maybe you order an LNER coach with his upgraded under-frames, Ian. Best wishes, Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted December 30, 2016 Author Share Posted December 30, 2016 Before getting your hopes up I suggest you find out where the actual moulds are located and who has control of them first. You may, on reflection, detect the presence of a certain amount of tongue in my cheek! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 (edited) wrt to website - it is designed (using wordpress) by a local business (based in Yeovil) and afaik they only allowed Paul to access certain areas, and any major alterations they would charge him. I would guess he can just about pay their hosting fees, but not for changes. If he was bothered, however, he could set the prices to 0.00 for stuff he does not have, which most likely would save a lot of aggravation, but for whatever reason he appears not to be concerned about that. edit to add - I would guess the copyright (which is updated to 2016) is owned by the site designer, hence the current date. Edited December 30, 2016 by raymw Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 ...... The new website seems to indicate that all is well and the whole range is listed, seemingly therefore available. I intend therefore to place an order for one of my old coaches, pay for it if requested and wait and see. I will report back here.... I'll get the popcorn out. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Kirk Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 Hi Again, Seems I was wrong about the new website. I just went to the old one by a different route which missed the old Home page. Searched for Coopercraft and got two or three alternatives. Some but not all of the pages have copyright 2016 on the bar at the bottom which when I saw one made me think that it had been updated. Pity. You may remember in my posting in June I had suggested that the problem could be simply solved by removing un available items from the site or even marking them as such. Even someone as useless with computers as myself has been known to update my O gauge website to show things like "out of stock, moulds in for repair". Having got there "without passing go" as it were I found no obvious way of ordering without payment so I have ordered a coach kit and paid postage. The thing happily accepted my order and my £17.50. and indicated "delivery within 2-5 working days so I await developments with interest. best wishes, Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted December 30, 2016 Author Share Posted December 30, 2016 Hi Again, Seems I was wrong about the new website. I just went to the old one by a different route which missed the old Home page. Searched for Coopercraft and got two or three alternatives. Some but not all of the pages have copyright 2016 on the bar at the bottom which when I saw one made me think that it had been updated. Pity. You may remember in my posting in June I had suggested that the problem could be simply solved by removing un available items from the site or even marking them as such. Even someone as useless with computers as myself has been known to update my O gauge website to show things like "out of stock, moulds in for repair". Having got there "without passing go" as it were I found no obvious way of ordering without payment so I have ordered a coach kit and paid postage. The thing happily accepted my order and my £17.50. and indicated "delivery within 2-5 working days so I await developments with interest. best wishes, Ian Good on you for undertaking this useful experiment. Just let me know when you are ready for the lawyer's letter ... ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian777999 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 (edited) Hi, Somewhere along the way there seems to have been produced a new website (dated 2016) this repeats the 2008 statement that " all the machines are now up and running" and does not seem to have the statement about only paying for stuff which is available. In reply to something someone said earlier about the possible problem of machines from Slaters being old and or the cost of new moulding machines being prohibitive. Moulding Machines, like anything else can be damaged by incompetence or misuse but given proper maintenance and a source of spare parts can go on and on. I still have my first 250PRT Gnat (built 1981) and I still run it from time to time. Second hand machines are not expensive and even in good working order are nowadays only worth scrap value (most of this kind of work is now done overseas) a few years ago I got three for £500. Problem is you need the right machine for the job and more importantly know what you are doing. People still contact me from time to time about my old 4mm coach range and although I have had nothing to do with it for 20+ years it still bears my name and I feel somewhat responsible. The new website seems to indicate that all is well and the whole range is listed, seemingly therefore available. I intend therefore to place an order for one of my old coaches, pay for it if requested and wait and see. I will report back here. best wishes, Ian Any chance of a photo of a moulding machine ? I really have no idea at all what they look like. How are the moulds made ? Edited December 31, 2016 by brian777999 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lofty1966 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 I'll get the popcorn out. If you start eating waiting for a result I think you will be somewhat rotund. If you sit waiting for a result before starting to eat you may starve. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 I've just sent a message via the website, strongly worded and firm, yet not rude or derogatory. I have asked for word about his promise back in July and explained that if the two coaches are going to remain unavailable, I would be quite happy to accept a coach from the Blacksmith range, of the same value, as an alternative. I await his reply. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 I can understand the frustration some may have if orders are taken and not honoured in a timely matter, however I cannot see how some of the comments made can assist the situation. If a person is trying to keep the business afloat and keeping well loved ranges available then a bit of encouragement does go a long way. I accept that some things in the past could/should have been handled differently, but each of us react in different ways when under pressure and I guess most of us have sometimes wished we had done somethings differently I will await Bill experiment with interest, and if positive I will try and support the business via mail order. If not will buy again at a show 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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